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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Everything in that piece was derived from speculation. Nothing was shown to prove anything, other than supporting pre determined assumptions
    Last edited by Ian; 11-21-2012 at 10:27 AM.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    So the author supports the use of antibiotics in the hive, but is having a problem with GMOs?

    I am surprised that the conclusion wasn’t geared toward bashing antibiotics. Certainly after 40 years of tetracycline use, American Foulbrood would have developed resistance to tetracycline. I guess bashing antibiotics is not in vogue anymore because GMOs are a bigger target and do a better job at grabbing the headlines.

    Seems odd.

    Before the advent of antibiotics, this bacterial infection [American Foulbrood] was the most serious bee disease in the world. Tetracycline had been used effectively against AFB for 40 years until 1996. In that year, tetracycline resistance was confirmed in both Argentina and the upper Midwestern states of Wisconsin and Minnesota. Since then, it has spread to at least 17 states, including New York. During the 1990's, millions of acres of Round-up Ready crops were planted in the U.S. and Argentina. According to my information, the antibiotic resistant gene used in the creation of Round-up Ready crops was resistant to tetracycline. After 40 years of effective usage against an infective bacterium found in the guts of honeybees, suddenly 2 geographically isolated countries develop tetracycline resistance simultaneously. A common thread between the U.S. and Argentina is the widespread and recent cultivation of GM crops containing tetracycline resistant genes.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    So your suggesting prions are involved with GMOs
    Not exactly, but prion is a good example how protein easily switch from its innocent into deadly form by simple shift of pH. My point was that there is no "innocent" proteins especially if they are enzymes - everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments. In fact, many diseases are happened when something misplaced at molecular or cellular level. Prion story is very interested - take a look on the Internet. The guy, who discovered it was harassed by his own university for many years until he got the Nobel Prize.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by irwin harlton View Post
    FROM "GMO testimony"...
    October 3, 2000...http://www.biotech-info.net/JR_testimony.html
    Surprisingly good presentation. Quite balanced analysis and in simple words - I would recommend to read this. I especially love: "Information which is absolutely essential for the independent validation of Biotech company claims regarding the safety of GMO's is unavailable to the GMO consuming public. It is my understanding that FDA policy is similar to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency." Again - 10 years later and NOTHING done!
    Last edited by cerezha; 11-21-2012 at 02:26 PM. Reason: grammar
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    So the author supports the use of antibiotics in the hive, but is having a problem with GMOs?... I guess bashing antibiotics is not in vogue anymore because GMOs are a bigger target and do a better job at grabbing the headlines. .
    Antibiotics and GMOs are entirely different stories. If the goal is to deliver a message regarding GMOs, it would be stupid to be distracted by antibiotics. I personally find that making connection between antibiotics and GOPs was smart selling point - people do not want antibiotic-resistant strains!
    Last edited by cerezha; 11-21-2012 at 03:06 PM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Everything in that piece was derived from speculation. Nothing was shown to prove anything, other than supporting pre determined assumptions
    Non-sense - author referred to well-respected research performed in Europe. It is sad that US (and Canada?) and its citizens are well behind Europe on this matter.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Not exactly, but prion is a good example how protein easily switch from its innocent into deadly form by simple shift of pH......
    Your explanation of the science is fine and I am not going to argue with it. I do however; have some problems with your conclusions:

    My point was that there is no "innocent" proteins especially if they are enzymes - everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments.
    Biology has no definition of innocence. Anthropomorphism does not help in any scientific argument.
    Why must “everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments”? (Appeal to nature).

    In fact, many diseases are happened when something misplaced at molecular or cellular level.
    Although it may be true in a general sense, the above statement has not been shown to apply to GMOs. GMOs have been around for over 30 years and unless you can point out instances of GMOs causing disease (or allergies, if that is what you are talking about), then your argument is pure speculation and is further weakened by ignoring 30 years of actual GMO use in the environment. This use represents an enormous amount of data, more than can be gathered in decades of academic research. I believe that the “proof is in the pudding” in this case.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Your explanation of the science is fine and I am not going to argue with it. I do however; have some problems with your conclusions:

    Biology has no definition of innocence. Anthropomorphism does not help in any scientific argument. ===>I am sorry, I am not presenting any scientific arguments here - for science we have scientific conferences.

    Why must “everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments”? (Appeal to nature). ===> well, because evolution placed every protein in its place by 100 million years long optimization process.

    Although it may be true in a general sense, the above statement has not been shown to apply to GMOs. ===> yes, I am speaking generally. The basic science is applied to particular cases. If there is no data on GMOs, it does not mean that general science may not be applied - this is a foundation of science - we made a model and apply it to unknown cases. If you disagree - well, I could not help...

    GMOs have been around for over 30 years and unless you can point out instances of GMOs causing disease (or allergies, if that is what you are talking about), then your argument is pure speculation and is further weakened by ignoring 30 years of actual GMO use in the environment. This use represents an enormous amount of data, more than can be gathered in decades of academic research. ===> there is no truthful publicly available data on public health effects of GMOs. There are plenty of data from very respectful scientists that Monsanto genes already contaminated native species in both Americas, which presents serious risk for native species.

    Also, the whole discussion is about proper labeling of the GMOs. Since, there is no proper labeling, how we could collect statistical data on GMOs effects if we just simply do not know what kind and how much GMOs present in the food or other source?

    Please, do not ask for references - do your home work before arguing, at least Wikipedia... that GMOs report is also good.
    http://www.biotech-info.net/JR_testimony.html
    Last edited by cerezha; 11-21-2012 at 03:18 PM. Reason: clarification
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post

    Why must “everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments”? (Appeal to nature). ===> well, because evolution placed every protein in its place by 100 million years long optimization process.


    And that lends absolutely nothing to you argument. Next time I get in trouble at work in a scientific debate I guess I will take your approach and say, "Well, that's the way we have always done it, so it must be right." Do you see how ridiculous your position is?


    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    MOs have been around for over 30 years and unless you can point out instances of GMOs causing disease (or allergies, if that is what you are talking about), then your argument is pure speculation and is further weakened by ignoring 30 years of actual GMO use in the environment. This use represents an enormous amount of data, more than can be gathered in decades of academic researc===> there is no truthful publicly available data on public health effects of GMOs. There are plenty of data from very respectful scientists that Monsanto genes already contaminated native species in both Americas, which presents serious risk for native species.
    Already contaminating native species? Presents a serious risks? You have added nothing but more worthless conjecture. I specifically asked for you to provide actual cases of disease caused by GMOs, as you asserted above. I am calling your bluff. Surely you have something to show after more than 30 years of actual use of GMOs in the environment. If you have proof to show, let's see it.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Non-sense - author referred to well-respected research performed in Europe. It is sad that US (and Canada?) and its citizens are well behind Europe on this matter.
    well cited from inconclusive research,
    you say we are behind Europe, I say our government has not been controlled by special group activism

    funny how you make use prions in your example when prions have absolutely nothing to do with any of this,.? I know alot about prions , well as much as a lay person can practically know about prions,
    Prions had affected my livelihood with BSE
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Prions are a unique class of protein in itself. It's able to cause an isomeric transition of your native protein which causes cyrstallization of said protein. To de-regulate a GMO event for human consumption, the novel protein is well studied and screened against a database of all known allergies, antigens, pathogens, and toxins. Any hits or even vague similarities it will be rejected.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    I'd like to know what crops have tetracycline resistance in them or is this speculation. The antibiotic marker typically isn't needed in the plant especially if it's Round-Up ready.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Int J Biol Sci. 2010; 6(6): 590–598.
    Published online 2010 October 5.
    PMCID: PMC2952409
    Debate on GMOs Health Risks after Statistical Findings in Regulatory Tests
    Joël Spiroux de Vendômois,1 Dominique Cellier,1,2 Christian Vélot,1,3 Emilie Clair,1,4 Robin Mesnage,1,4 and Gilles-Eric Séralini1,4,

    Apparently, permission to use Monsanto GMO was issued based on 3-month-long health risk assessment of 40 rats. Monsanto assessment was kept in secrecy and released under court order (in Europe).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Int J Biol Sci. 2009 Dec 10;5(7):706-26.
    A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health.
    de Vendômois JS, Roullier F, Cellier D, Séralini GE.
    CRIIGEN, Paris, France.
    Abstract

    We present for the first time a comparative analysis of blood and organ system data from trials with rats fed three main commercialized genetically modified (GM) maize (NK 603, MON 810, MON 863), which are present in food and feed in the world. NK 603 has been modified to be tolerant to the broad spectrum herbicide Roundup and thus contains residues of this formulation. MON 810 and MON 863 are engineered to synthesize two different Bt toxins used as insecticides. Approximately 60 different biochemical parameters were classified per organ and measured in serum and urine after 5 and 14 weeks of feeding. GM maize-fed rats were compared first to their respective isogenic or parental non-GM equivalent control groups. This was followed by comparison to six reference groups, which had consumed various other non-GM maize varieties. We applied nonparametric methods, including multiple pairwise comparisons with a False Discovery Rate approach. Principal Component Analysis allowed the investigation of scattering of different factors (sex, weeks of feeding, diet, dose and group). Our analysis clearly reveals for the 3 GMOs new side effects linked with GM maize consumption, which were sex- and often dose-dependent. Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver, the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system. We conclude that these data highlight signs of hepatorenal toxicity, possibly due to the new pesticides specific to each GM corn. In addition, unintended direct or indirect metabolic consequences of the genetic modification cannot be excluded.
    ---------------------------------
    Happy GMOs eating! Sergey
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    funny how you make use prions in your example when prions have absolutely nothing to do with any of this,.? ...
    Ian, I was trying to explain why any foreign protein may present an unexpected health risk. Prion is a good example because it is easily transformed from nothing into evil. If you really want to understand, than you need to study... at school... biochemistry. I am not in position to teach you or change your opinion. If you feel that GMOs are good for you - not a problem, eat it. I do not care. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    I believe that article got blasted pretty hard for the unique 'statistical model' they used to come to their 'conclusions'.

    The French High Counsel on Biotechnology (HCB) has considered both the de Vendômois (2009)
    and Seralini (2007) papers and has found that these papers make no useful contribution to the safety
    assessment.
    o The Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) have also dismissed this study, stating,
    “Séralini and colleagues have distorted the toxicological significance of their results by placing
    undue emphasis on the statistical treatment of data, and failing to take other relevant factors into
    account.”
    o Most recently, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) has weighed in on the matter,
    concluding that the study “provides no new evidence of toxic effects.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    >>Ian, I was trying to explain why any foreign protein may present an unexpected health risk.

    yet its not, and hasnt been for a long time now,
    unless you figure these proteins are changing into prions, because then we would actually have a problem
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  17. #57
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    I believe that article got blasted pretty hard for the unique 'statistical model' they used to come to their 'conclusions'.
    Int J Biol Sci. 2010; 6(6): 590–598. Paper discussed all these issues in details. As I stated above (based on paper), apparently the decision that particular GMOs are safe was made based on Monsanto secret "research", which involves 40 rats to test a health impact of the GMO on humans. Read the paper. If you feel that Monsanto unpublished research is more truthful than research published in peer-reviewed scientific journal (I do not care what politicians think about this research), than, I am sorry - I could not help. Sergey
    Last edited by cerezha; 11-21-2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason: added
    Серёжа, Sergey

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    yet its not, and hasnt been for a long time now...
    Well, I am giving up - take a biochemistry class in community college. Sorry, nothing personal.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    I may just be a lay person, and probably need to take a bio chemistry course at my local community college, but I understand something you dont Sergey,

    It was not science that took GMO out of production in Europe, that was activism.

    Cheers!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  20. #60
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    ... It was not science that took GMO out of production in Europe, that was activism.
    Well, I am an "activist" and I am from Europe. I think we need more "activism" rather than less. I also think that activism is a part of democracy. But, freedom to eat food with unknown content is a part of democracy also... I apologize for bad communication. I sincerely tried... Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

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