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Bees & genetically modified crops

21K views 66 replies 17 participants last post by  psfred 
#1 ·
What is the attitude of US beekeepers to GMOs and their potential for causing problems for bees?

The British Beekeepers Association seems to be trying hard to ignore GMOs, which I find surprising and somewhat suspicious.

What news from your side of the pond?
 
#38 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

>>consume this foreign artificially implanted protein. Nobody really know what this protein could do to animals and humans.

the same way we handle all other proteins of this manner, right?
Not exactly. Are you familiar with prions? It is not "just protein". It is the whole system. If one changed one thing, other thing will change also... In science, we do gene-engineering all the time. But it is under very strict control to ensure that new strains will not escape and alternate the nature. Monsanto really DO alternate the Mother Nature... it is very serious. In fact, "Monsanto genes" already contaminated corn genome in both Americas.
 
#43 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

So your suggesting prions are involved with GMOs
Not exactly, but prion is a good example how protein easily switch from its innocent into deadly form by simple shift of pH. My point was that there is no "innocent" proteins especially if they are enzymes - everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments. In fact, many diseases are happened when something misplaced at molecular or cellular level. Prion story is very interested - take a look on the Internet. The guy, who discovered it was harassed by his own university for many years until he got the Nobel Prize.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

FROM "GMO testimony"...
October 3, 2000...http://www.biotech-info.net/JR_testimony.html
Surprisingly good presentation. Quite balanced analysis and in simple words - I would recommend to read this. I especially love: "Information which is absolutely essential for the independent validation of Biotech company claims regarding the safety of GMO's is unavailable to the GMO consuming public. It is my understanding that FDA policy is similar to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency." Again - 10 years later and NOTHING done!
 
#46 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Everything in that piece was derived from speculation. Nothing was shown to prove anything, other than supporting pre determined assumptions
Non-sense - author referred to well-respected research performed in Europe. It is sad that US (and Canada?) and its citizens are well behind Europe on this matter.
 
#42 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

So the author supports the use of antibiotics in the hive, but is having a problem with GMOs?

I am surprised that the conclusion wasn’t geared toward bashing antibiotics. Certainly after 40 years of tetracycline use, American Foulbrood would have developed resistance to tetracycline. I guess bashing antibiotics is not in vogue anymore because GMOs are a bigger target and do a better job at grabbing the headlines.

Seems odd.

Before the advent of antibiotics, this bacterial infection [American Foulbrood] was the most serious bee disease in the world. Tetracycline had been used effectively against AFB for 40 years until 1996. In that year, tetracycline resistance was confirmed in both Argentina and the upper Midwestern states of Wisconsin and Minnesota. Since then, it has spread to at least 17 states, including New York. During the 1990's, millions of acres of Round-up Ready crops were planted in the U.S. and Argentina. According to my information, the antibiotic resistant gene used in the creation of Round-up Ready crops was resistant to tetracycline. After 40 years of effective usage against an infective bacterium found in the guts of honeybees, suddenly 2 geographically isolated countries develop tetracycline resistance simultaneously. A common thread between the U.S. and Argentina is the widespread and recent cultivation of GM crops containing tetracycline resistant genes.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

So the author supports the use of antibiotics in the hive, but is having a problem with GMOs?... I guess bashing antibiotics is not in vogue anymore because GMOs are a bigger target and do a better job at grabbing the headlines. .
Antibiotics and GMOs are entirely different stories. If the goal is to deliver a message regarding GMOs, it would be stupid to be distracted by antibiotics. I personally find that making connection between antibiotics and GOPs was smart selling point - people do not want antibiotic-resistant strains!
 
#48 · (Edited)
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Your explanation of the science is fine and I am not going to argue with it. I do however; have some problems with your conclusions:

Biology has no definition of innocence. Anthropomorphism does not help in any scientific argument. ===>I am sorry, I am not presenting any scientific arguments here - for science we have scientific conferences.

Why must “everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments”? (Appeal to nature). ===> well, because evolution placed every protein in its place by 100 million years long optimization process.

Although it may be true in a general sense, the above statement has not been shown to apply to GMOs. ===> yes, I am speaking generally. The basic science is applied to particular cases. If there is no data on GMOs, it does not mean that general science may not be applied - this is a foundation of science - we made a model and apply it to unknown cases. If you disagree - well, I could not help...

GMOs have been around for over 30 years and unless you can point out instances of GMOs causing disease (or allergies, if that is what you are talking about), then your argument is pure speculation and is further weakened by ignoring 30 years of actual GMO use in the environment. This use represents an enormous amount of data, more than can be gathered in decades of academic research. ===> there is no truthful publicly available data on public health effects of GMOs. There are plenty of data from very respectful scientists that Monsanto genes already contaminated native species in both Americas, which presents serious risk for native species.

Also, the whole discussion is about proper labeling of the GMOs. Since, there is no proper labeling, how we could collect statistical data on GMOs effects if we just simply do not know what kind and how much GMOs present in the food or other source?

Please, do not ask for references - do your home work before arguing, at least Wikipedia... that GMOs report is also good.
http://www.biotech-info.net/JR_testimony.html
 
#49 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Why must “everything must be in place where Mother Nature placed it after 100 million years of experiments”? (Appeal to nature). ===> well, because evolution placed every protein in its place by 100 million years long optimization process.


And that lends absolutely nothing to you argument. Next time I get in trouble at work in a scientific debate I guess I will take your approach and say, "Well, that's the way we have always done it, so it must be right." Do you see how ridiculous your position is?


MOs have been around for over 30 years and unless you can point out instances of GMOs causing disease (or allergies, if that is what you are talking about), then your argument is pure speculation and is further weakened by ignoring 30 years of actual GMO use in the environment. This use represents an enormous amount of data, more than can be gathered in decades of academic researc===> there is no truthful publicly available data on public health effects of GMOs. There are plenty of data from very respectful scientists that Monsanto genes already contaminated native species in both Americas, which presents serious risk for native species.
Already contaminating native species? Presents a serious risks? You have added nothing but more worthless conjecture. I specifically asked for you to provide actual cases of disease caused by GMOs, as you asserted above. I am calling your bluff. Surely you have something to show after more than 30 years of actual use of GMOs in the environment. If you have proof to show, let's see it.
 
#51 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Prions are a unique class of protein in itself. It's able to cause an isomeric transition of your native protein which causes cyrstallization of said protein. To de-regulate a GMO event for human consumption, the novel protein is well studied and screened against a database of all known allergies, antigens, pathogens, and toxins. Any hits or even vague similarities it will be rejected.
 
#53 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Int J Biol Sci. 2010; 6(6): 590–598.
Published online 2010 October 5.
PMCID: PMC2952409
Debate on GMOs Health Risks after Statistical Findings in Regulatory Tests
Joël Spiroux de Vendômois,1 Dominique Cellier,1,2 Christian Vélot,1,3 Emilie Clair,1,4 Robin Mesnage,1,4 and Gilles-Eric Séralini1,4,

Apparently, permission to use Monsanto GMO was issued based on 3-month-long health risk assessment of 40 rats. Monsanto assessment was kept in secrecy and released under court order (in Europe).

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Int J Biol Sci. 2009 Dec 10;5(7):706-26.
A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health.
de Vendômois JS, Roullier F, Cellier D, Séralini GE.
CRIIGEN, Paris, France.
Abstract

We present for the first time a comparative analysis of blood and organ system data from trials with rats fed three main commercialized genetically modified (GM) maize (NK 603, MON 810, MON 863), which are present in food and feed in the world. NK 603 has been modified to be tolerant to the broad spectrum herbicide Roundup and thus contains residues of this formulation. MON 810 and MON 863 are engineered to synthesize two different Bt toxins used as insecticides. Approximately 60 different biochemical parameters were classified per organ and measured in serum and urine after 5 and 14 weeks of feeding. GM maize-fed rats were compared first to their respective isogenic or parental non-GM equivalent control groups. This was followed by comparison to six reference groups, which had consumed various other non-GM maize varieties. We applied nonparametric methods, including multiple pairwise comparisons with a False Discovery Rate approach. Principal Component Analysis allowed the investigation of scattering of different factors (sex, weeks of feeding, diet, dose and group). Our analysis clearly reveals for the 3 GMOs new side effects linked with GM maize consumption, which were sex- and often dose-dependent. Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver, the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system. We conclude that these data highlight signs of hepatorenal toxicity, possibly due to the new pesticides specific to each GM corn. In addition, unintended direct or indirect metabolic consequences of the genetic modification cannot be excluded.
---------------------------------
Happy GMOs eating! Sergey
 
#61 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Int J Biol Sci. 2009 Dec 10;5(7):706-26.
A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health.
de Vendômois JS, Roullier F, Cellier D, Séralini GE.
CRIIGEN, Paris, France.
Abstract

We present for the first time a comparative analysis of blood and organ system data from trials with rats fed three main commercialized genetically modified (GM) maize (NK 603, MON 810, MON 863), which are present in food and feed in the world. NK 603 has been modified to

Our analysis clearly reveals for the 3 GMOs new side effects linked with GM maize consumption, which were sex- and often dose-dependent. Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver,
the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system.
You indicated that GMOs cause disease and allergies. Showing a link to side effects caused by GMOs in rat study does not prove this. After over 30 years of people consuming GMOs, there should be direct links to disease and allergies. That should be easy to prove by now if there was any truth to your statements.
 
#55 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

I believe that article got blasted pretty hard for the unique 'statistical model' they used to come to their 'conclusions'.

The French High Counsel on Biotechnology (HCB) has considered both the de Vendômois (2009)
and Seralini (2007) papers and has found that these papers make no useful contribution to the safety
assessment.
o The Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) have also dismissed this study, stating,
“Séralini and colleagues have distorted the toxicological significance of their results by placing
undue emphasis on the statistical treatment of data, and failing to take other relevant factors into
account.”
o Most recently, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) has weighed in on the matter,
concluding that the study “provides no new evidence of toxic effects.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

I believe that article got blasted pretty hard for the unique 'statistical model' they used to come to their 'conclusions'.
Int J Biol Sci. 2010; 6(6): 590–598. Paper discussed all these issues in details. As I stated above (based on paper), apparently the decision that particular GMOs are safe was made based on Monsanto secret "research", which involves 40 rats to test a health impact of the GMO on humans. Read the paper. If you feel that Monsanto unpublished research is more truthful than research published in peer-reviewed scientific journal (I do not care what politicians think about this research), than, I am sorry - I could not help. Sergey
 
#56 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

>>Ian, I was trying to explain why any foreign protein may present an unexpected health risk.

yet its not, and hasnt been for a long time now,
unless you figure these proteins are changing into prions, because then we would actually have a problem
 
#60 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

... It was not science that took GMO out of production in Europe, that was activism.
Well, I am an "activist" and I am from Europe. I think we need more "activism" rather than less. I also think that activism is a part of democracy. But, freedom to eat food with unknown content is a part of democracy also... I apologize for bad communication. I sincerely tried... Sergey
 
#67 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Inserting foreign genes using viral vectors is NOT necessarily better or safer or more effective than standard crop breeding, it's much more prone to unexpected results. Unknown unknows as the lingo goes, meaning that one can be very much surprised by a result completely unanticipated by one's prior research and experience.

There are a number of theoretical problems that remain unresolved, although I don't know of any in actual crop plants, but the notion that the inserted genes are going to stay just where they were up isn't rational. Corn in particular has a very fluid genome, and viable corn pollen travels MUCH further than the evidence indicated when things like BT corn were first introduced. BT corn is now found all over the Americas, probably by simple wind transfer of pollen in native crops, most of which are open pollinated outside the USA. There is also some evidence that genes can travel between species via bacterial or viral gene transfer, we really don't know everything about biology yet.

I'm personally more concerned about the reduction in variation growing just a handful of crop varieties causes -- I'm old enough to remember the Texas Cytoplasm disaster in the early 70's when the majority of the hybrid corn in the US was produced using a single type of male sterile corn (to save on de-tasseling the male parent of the cross) and that particular genome included high susceptibility to a blight. Wiped out a huge part of the corn crop for a least one season. What happens when no one has a separate product and this happens again, as it likely will? No food? Not a good plan.

Peter
 
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