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Bees & genetically modified crops

21K views 66 replies 17 participants last post by  psfred 
#1 ·
What is the attitude of US beekeepers to GMOs and their potential for causing problems for bees?

The British Beekeepers Association seems to be trying hard to ignore GMOs, which I find surprising and somewhat suspicious.

What news from your side of the pond?
 
#2 ·
Hi Phil
The other side of the pond has questions about that also but I have not seen an uproar about that yet. But then again I might not be aware of it either.
Personally I usually take a reserved view on any fooling around with mother Nature. Whenever mother sees fit to modify , she does it quite well by her lonesome.
Catfish
 
G
#3 ·
I feel uncomfortable with it, in that there are so many unknowns, that it may come back to bite us later. I think it is here to stay, however, and we will now have to make the best of it.

OTOH, it has greatly reduced pesticide damage to my bees, because there is much less insecticide spraying during the early part of cotton bloom. Bees can now make some honey, instead of getting killed or greatly weakened.



------------------
Dave
The Pollination Home Page
http://pollinator.com
 
#4 ·
I'm surprised by your apathy! Do you really want to eat honey full of GM pollen? I take your point about pesticides, but GMs ARE sprayed with Roundup (or similar noxious substance) in any case - the crop is resistant to it but the weeds (many of which the bees love) are not, and are killed off as ever. Surely beekeepers should be supporting organic and other non-chemical farming practices?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pollinator:

I feel uncomfortable with it, in that there are so many unknowns, that it may come back to bite us later. I think it is here to stay, however, and we will now have to make the best of it.

OTOH, it has greatly reduced pesticide damage to my bees, because there is much less insecticide spraying during the early part of cotton bloom. Bees can now make some honey, instead of getting killed or greatly weakened.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
#7 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

I'm surprised by your apathy! Do you really want to eat honey full of GM pollen? I take your point about pesticides, but GMs ARE sprayed with Roundup (or similar noxious substance) in any case - the crop is resistant to it but the weeds (many of which the bees love) are not, and are killed off as ever. Surely beekeepers should be supporting organic and other non-chemical.

How on earth did I just respond to a thread that is over a decade old?
:scratch:
 
G
#5 ·
>I'm surprised by your apathy!

You don't know me, do you? I think I've established my credentials as a non-apathetic person. I've campaigned against pesticide misuse for many years, and really put the heat on "bought-out" officials who refuse to enforce pesticide laws that protect bees.

>Do you really want to eat honey full of GM pollen?

Would you rather eat pesticide-laced pollen?

>I take your point about pesticides, but GMs ARE sprayed with Roundup (or similar noxious >substance) in any case - the crop is resistant to it but the weeds (many of which >the bees love) are not, and are killed off as ever. Surely beekeepers should be >supporting organic and other non-chemical farming practices?

The high cost of pesticides, and the ever increasing regulation of them will help reduce their use. But a beekeeper who tries to force farms in his area to go organic would be laughed out of the discussion. On the other hand, when an applicator violates the label directions, he can be prosecuted, and he should be.

I use pesticides myself. I use them carefully and sparingly, but I do not see any alternative to using some. So I am not against pesticide use; rather I am against pesticide misuse. Now, THAT is a viable stance for beekeepers.

Pollinator
 
#6 ·
I said:
>I'm surprised by your apathy!
You said:
You don't know me, do you? I think I've established my credentials as a non-apathetic person. I've campaigned against pesticide misuse for many years, and really put the heat on "bought-out" officials who refuse to enforce pesticide laws that protect bees.

>>I did not mean to impugn your integrity! But as far as I am concerned, any use of pesticides is abuse. Maybe I'm an extremist, but as an organic/biodynamic grower (on a small scale) I have never felt the need to use poisons of any kind: my efforts are concentrated on creating healthy soil and I leave the rest to nature. Maybe that doesn't work for everyone, but my neighbour, who runs the biggest organic farm in the UK, has the same attitude and it works for him, too.

I said:
>Do you really want to eat honey full of GM pollen?

You said:
Would you rather eat pesticide-laced pollen?

>>Absolutely not - but you seem to be suggesting that this is the only alternative, which I do not believe.

I said:
>I take your point about pesticides, but GMs ARE sprayed with Roundup (or similar noxious >substance) in any case - the crop is resistant to it but the weeds (many of which >the bees love) are not, and are killed off as ever. Surely beekeepers should be >supporting organic and other non-chemical farming practices?

You said:
The high cost of pesticides, and the ever increasing regulation of them will help reduce their use. But a beekeeper who tries to force farms in his area to go organic would be laughed out of the discussion. On the other hand, when an applicator violates the label directions, he can be prosecuted, and he should be.

>>Well I don't know where you live, but clearly you have a way to go to persuade your community of the benefits of organic farming...!

best wishes,
Phil Chandler
Devon, UK
 
#8 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

I didn't even know that they had the internet in 2000....oh wait it was the 2000 election when Al Gore claimed he invented it. Interesting that postings by unregistered users was allowed then. Probably just Barry's way of debating on the sly.
 
#10 · (Edited)
#11 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

And by the way North America is still apathetic about GMO's and pesticides. We're happy that Monsanto runs our government. I'm just wondering when Monsanto (Beelogics) comes out with a genetically modified bee (Franken-bee).
 
#19 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

And by the way North America is still apathetic about GMO's and pesticides. We're happy that Monsanto runs our government. I'm just wondering when Monsanto (Beelogics) comes out with a genetically modified bee (Franken-bee).
and this thread that has been dug up from the deep past demonstrates one thing- we have been using GMOs for over 10 years and despite all the fear, there has not been one problem that has been realized. A lot of what ifs? but not one thing that anyone can point to after ten years of actual use. FWIW - +10 years of actual use in the environment trumps 10 years of government studies by a factor of approximately 10 (IMO).
 
#13 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

When we graft a fruit tree, doe's that not make geneticlly modified? When we breed queens, do we not change the genetics? I think every thing we eat has been modified.
Grafting is more closely related to cloning, so it's almost the opposite of changing the genetics. Grafting allows us to create many individual living things with the same genetics. The root stock on the fruit tree may modify the growth behavior of the fruit tree, but it doesn't change the genetics of the graft.
Breeding only affects the genetics in that certain genes are selected for so those become more predominant in our stock, but it usually doesn't insert a gene into that population that wasn't already in that species. Sometimes we can create hybrids by breeding two different species that are very close to begin with (mules).
GMOs are organisms that have genes inserted in them that are usually, if not always, from completely different species. Sometimes the genes aren't even from the same Kingdoms (bacterial genes inserted into plants). This is extremely different from any genetic change that could occur from just breeding or grafting.
 
#14 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

This is the response the biotech companies always use to confuse people saying that farmers have been genetically modifying for generations. Hybridization and genetic modification are two totalling different actions. Hybridization is a sexual act between two similar species. Usually, the process of genetic modification involves genes from totally different species (infused using a gene gun or through the introduction of bacterial infection) that could never be crossbred—wheat genes injected into soybeans, for example. Sometimes, genes are transferred not just from another species, but from a different kingdom, such as animal cells injected into plant cells (i.e. salmon genes into a tomato). Genetic engineering is the process of breaking the natural boundaries that exist between species to produce new life forms and signs of adverse reactions by humans to the consumption of these new life forms are occurring. It's like saying that global warming has occurred before. True but never has it been caused by human actions and never in so short a period of time.
 
#16 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Grafting has nothing to do with genetic modification. What about gama/chemically induced mutations that's been used? Don't just say breeding is breeding. Genetic modificaiton is much more specific than those techniques. What signs of adverse effects are present? Salmon into a tomato?? We eat salmon all the time so why would a salmon gene in a tomato do anything using you're example?? Understand the science, don't just buy into all the 'stories' you hear or the badly designed studies by interest groups. If you were to biochemically analyze a lot of the stuff we eat, gmo, organic, or conventionally grown, you could not distinguish it, so again, I ask, why would there be adverse affects in those cases?
 
#18 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

We eat salmon all the time so why would a salmon gene in a tomato do anything using you're example?? Understand the science, don't just buy into all the 'stories' you hear or the badly designed studies by interest groups. If you were to biochemically analyze a lot of the stuff we eat, gmo, organic, or conventionally grown, you could not distinguish it, so again, I ask, why would there be adverse affects in those cases?
Those of us with strong allergies to certain things have serious worries about this. For instance, someone with a fish allergy could unknowingly eat a tomato with salmon genes and have a bad reaction if the salmon gene in the tomato expressed the trait that caused the allergy. I, personally, am concerned with soybean genes being spliced into other plants.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

I agee 100% that you should not believe studies produced by either the agro-chemical companies or the environmental groups. Both have an intended purpose to prove their argument. That is why I usually ignore studies done by either one side or the other. I don't know the complete effects of gmo products on humans or the environment nor can anyone else claim to. But I do know a few adverse effects that have arisen in initial studies that should at least give us reason to be concerned. First biochemically you can distinguish between gmo and non gmo foods. Secondly, a few of the adverse affects are that there is unintended harm to other organisms like B.t. corn has caused high mortality rates in monarch butterfly caterpillars; there has been reduced effectiveness of pesticides with developed resistance (pests and super weeds); Gene transfer to non-target species cross - breed between weeds and gmo crop plants creating super weeds and introduced genes may cross over into non-modified crops planted next to GM crops - Monsanto patent infringements against farmers and the inadvertent cross pollination of native species (i.e Corn in southern Mexico). A serious concern is the ownership of the newly created genetically modified life form through patent. This means that if that patented life form finds it's way on to your land (this can occur by inadvertent wind or bird transfer of seed or through cross pollination) you can be sued. In the case of a farmer you can be sued for your whole season's crop as was the case in farmer
Percy Schmeiser against Monsanto http://youtu.be/Se-1zesy450. ; Allergenicity- existing allergies to one of the species introduced or new allergies to the new species. I don't know everything about gmo crops and don't pretend to but personally think there is enough proof to be concerned about a policy of unrestricted creation of new species of life who's ownership lies in the patent holder (i.e Monsanto). What is to prevent someone from genetically modifying humans?
 
#22 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

......and to the best of my knowledge the Percy Schmeiser case is the only case where Monsanto has ever taken a farmer to court over planting seed allegedly contaminated by wind blown pollen. Schmeiser is a political activist who used a somewhat incredible story to publicly goad Monsanto into a fight. 3 different courts ruled against him.
 
#23 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Yes, Schmeiser got alot of press, and for what? He was a farmer, and he was fighting big chemical.
He did not mention that the field that was under investigation, was planted in rows, and sprayed in such a manner to take all advantage of the round up resistance it held. Who would spray their crop with round up if they had no idea the roundup tolerant trait was in it
 
#25 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Genetic Engineering - To modify the genetics of something to get what you want out of it. That includes everything from selective breeding to gene splicing.

Genetic Modification - To modify the genetics of something using Molecular techniques. Gene splicing (addition/removal).
 
#26 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Tabby, I can understand the concerns there. You have to look at the regulation costs and tests done before approval though. Any novel proteins made in the target species are screened against all known allergens and toxins. Any similarities and the product will not be approved. Not sure of the soybean splicing, haven't heard anything about that. Again, you would have to look at what they're trying to move, whether it's for plant health or consumer benefit (i.e. moving plant resistance genes vs improving nutrition/yield/composition of end product for consumer).
 
#28 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Who will be the Rosa Parks of the modern age who will draw attention to this problem? Who will be the Medger Evers willing to take a bullet for this cause? Who will be the Martin Luther King, speaking out against the social injustice of GMOs and the case study we are all living in, laying down their life for the betterment of all?

Untill there is a critical mass of the masses and people like these willing to do what needs doing and willing to go all the way to martyrdom this is only so much "blowin' in the wind".
 
#29 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Who will be the Rosa Parks .... to go all the way to martyrdom this is only so much "blowin' in the wind".
Well, outside the beekeepers community many people think differently. There is a hope since Obama is claimed to be "greener" than others... I think, this issue will be resolved as soon as enough statistics will be collected on allergy and other effects from GMOs. It took them 50 (?) years to prove that smoking increases the lung cancer and even after that - many smokers claimed that they are healthy. The thing about this is that alive people could claim that they are healthy (even 2 days before cancer diagnosis), but dead people - could not vote against smoking since they are dead already... sort of too late... sorry for cynicism - as a pathology-histologist I saw many blackened lungs with horrible cancers...
 
#31 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Eventually the economics and severe lack of genetic diversity will kill off the GMO crops. They are VERY expensive, require lots of chemicals, and are ruining standard agriculture due to weed infestations from sloppy farming practices.

The real problem here is monopolies in the production of food -- a few companies control all the markets, with the result that they control prices, meaning independent farmers are getting squeezed out in favor of massive agribusiness.

Shouldn't be a surprise, it's been official USDA policy since 1954.

Peter
 
#34 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Eventually the economics and severe lack of genetic diversity will kill off the GMO crops. They are VERY expensive, require lots of chemicals, and are ruining standard agriculture due to weed infestations from sloppy farming practices.


Peter
comes from someone who does not know anything about farming. . . . .
 
#32 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Peter, the lines are bred into elite varieties, always changing to meet yield demands and agronomic traits. Why would you say they require lots of chemicals?? They're grown just like any other conventional crop. A lot of the resistances are because of sloppy farming practices, I agree there and more should've been done to monitor farm practices and make sure proper refuge etc... was being done. We all know growing the same traits and applying the same herbicides year after year lead to resistances, nothing new there.
 
#36 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Peter, the lines are bred into elite varieties, always changing to meet yield demands and agronomic traits. ...
GMOs are entirely different story - it is not bred. Particular, sometime artificial or foreign genes "implanted" into genome to perform unusual to the host function, for instance to be resistant to the Roundup. In case of Roundup, I believe, they introduced entirely foreign gene into corm. Gene produces a protein, enzyme in this case, which never was in the corn. Consuming GMO corn, you consume this foreign artificially implanted protein. Nobody really know what this protein could do to animals and humans. Simplest thing - allergy. Now, Monsanto is applying the same approach to the bees, so they would not be sensitive to the Roundup. I could not believe that normally conservative and careful beekeepers are so open to GMOs...

From another hand, there are very interesting approaches in GMOs. For instance, scientists introduced genes to enrich goat milk with specific antibodies - this way antibodies may be isolated from the milk cheaply. Antibodies are most universal and powerful anti-bacterial AND anti-viral agent. I am fine with such approach as long as it is under control and final product is identical to natural antibodies - nobody is going to force beekeepers to drink that milk!
 
#33 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

The genes are put into ANYTHING that Monsanto and other big companies (mostly Monsanto, I chose NOT to work there in the 90s) want. Elite lines, perhaps.

Are you saying the huge tankers of Roundup aren't chemicals? BT corn doesn't require chemicals to control stalk borers or rootworm, but neither were a problem until monoculture corn came along in the late 60's and early 70's -- proper crop rotation, including at least one year with cover crops and cows, control rootworm just fine, thank you. That's why it wasn't a problem until people started planting corn every year in the same field and leaving stubble up instead of plowing.

RoundUp ready crops have raised us up a huge crop of RoundUp resistant weeds, so everyone is using both RoundUp and older herbicides.

Extremely expensive, non-diverse crops are not the answer, never have been, but they make Monsanto tons of money in concert with "plant patent" laws (which I hold in the same reguard as "software patent" laws -- to whit, nonsense).

And this completely neglects the impact on beekeeping -- all that RoundUp has pretty much eliminated wildflowers anywhere near fields -- the overspray kills them off much more readily that the resistant weeds in the fields. The crappy farming practices result in huge soil loss -- the field across the road from my window is at least three feet lower than it was thirty years ago -- and the soil structure is going to hell as a result of that and the use of stunning amounts of chemical fertilizers.

It's a long and complicated story, but GMO crops aren't going to save us.

Peter
 
#35 ·
Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

Yeah I hear a lot about "super weeds" that are resistent to glyphosate. Yes they are showing up here and there but they really dont have much of an impact as the few I am aware of are pretty easily controlled by prudent farming practices. Crop rotation is the norm in our area and the only weeds that can have an economic impact on your crop are late emerging weeds that hide under crop canopies. Not so many years ago the norm in midwest crop farming was disc, plow, disc, plant, a possible trip through with a rotary hoe, then cultivate, and cultivate again and there were usually still lots of areas of problem weeds that would worsen partly because the ground would wash so badly from all the trips through the field. Lots of fuel was used and lots of erosion resulted. Not exactly the good old days.
 
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