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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Int J Biol Sci. 2009 Dec 10;5(7):706-26.
    A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health.
    de Vendômois JS, Roullier F, Cellier D, Séralini GE.
    CRIIGEN, Paris, France.
    Abstract

    We present for the first time a comparative analysis of blood and organ system data from trials with rats fed three main commercialized genetically modified (GM) maize (NK 603, MON 810, MON 863), which are present in food and feed in the world. NK 603 has been modified to

    Our analysis clearly reveals for the 3 GMOs new side effects linked with GM maize consumption, which were sex- and often dose-dependent. Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver,
    the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system.
    You indicated that GMOs cause disease and allergies. Showing a link to side effects caused by GMOs in rat study does not prove this. After over 30 years of people consuming GMOs, there should be direct links to disease and allergies. That should be easy to prove by now if there was any truth to your statements.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    You indicated that GMOs cause disease and allergies. Showing a link to side effects caused by GMOs in rat study does not prove this. After over 30 years of people consuming GMOs, there should be direct links to disease and allergies. That should be easy to prove by now if there was any truth to your statements.
    "Side effect" may cause the disease. There is a fine line between all these words and being ESL,sometime I do not recognize the difference. I apologize for that. If GMO caused liver and kidney problem would you call it "disease"... or if heart enlarged by 40% (!) in rats on GMO "diet"?

    As for your major argument that there is no proven evidence that GMO cause a problem in humans for the past 30 years - this is good argument widely used by big monopolies all around the world for their advantage (not people). In case the GMOs the major problem is that products with GMOs are not labeled properly. Thus, it is not possible to collect ANY statistics on GMO effects on humans. Look, you eat cereal. On the package it says, it contains oats, nuts, corn syrup (just example) etc. How you know that you consume GMOs if it is not in the label? How doctor would know that your problem may relate to GMO if you do not know did you eat GMO or not and what kind of GMO? Research paper like I cited above do not solve our political problems. It just pointed to the area of potential risk. In case of GMO, for instance, they find that 3 GMO tested had a different effect. Also, apparently older adult males effected more. Liver, kidney and the heart are affected. But without knowledge who actually consume GMOs, it is not possible to create a link between scientific observation and public health issue. On top of this, apparently the government(s) is on the Monsanto side accepting its secret unpublished "research" and denying research published in peer-reviewed journal(s). It is very disturbing. After reading those papers, I have to admit, I love Europe less in regards to GMOs - they ignored research in favor Monsanto's 40-rats report. People I mentioned above published new paper - they are on the mission! Did you realize, that they obtained Monsanto secret report via the court decision? Do you really like all these secrets? If GMOs is safe, I am sure Monsanto will publish it in the Science Magazine - this is sort of argument you were using... sorry.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    "Side effect" may cause the disease. There is a fine line between all these words and being ESL,sometime I do not recognize the difference. I apologize for that. If GMO caused liver and kidney problem would you call it "disease"... or if heart enlarged by 40% (!) in rats on GMO "diet"?
    I dont care if you call it a disease or a condition, you cant show that GMOs cause liver or kidney problems in humans. Bottom line is that 30+ of actual use in the environment is orders of magnitude more data than can be gathered with lab experiments in the same time period. There would be numerous direct links established by now if GMOs were a problem.

    While you are still fretting over conspiracies, another 30 years of non-issue will go by and you will probably still not be convinced. What is it going to take? 60, 90, 120 years?
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  4. #64
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Knox Co, Ohio, USA
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    766

    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Int J Biol Sci. 2010; 6(6): 590–598.
    Published online 2010 October 5.
    PMCID: PMC2952409
    Debate on GMOs Health Risks after Statistical Findings in Regulatory Tests
    Joël Spiroux de Vendômois,1 Dominique Cellier,1,2 Christian Vélot,1,3 Emilie Clair,1,4 Robin Mesnage,1,4 and Gilles-Eric Séralini1,4,

    Apparently, permission to use Monsanto GMO was issued based on 3-month-long health risk assessment of 40 rats. Monsanto assessment was kept in secrecy and released under court order (in Europe).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Int J Biol Sci. 2009 Dec 10;5(7):706-26.
    A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health.
    de Vendômois JS, Roullier F, Cellier D, Séralini GE.
    CRIIGEN, Paris, France.
    Abstract

    We present for the first time a comparative analysis of blood and organ system data from trials with rats fed three main commercialized genetically modified (GM) maize (NK 603, MON 810, MON 863), which are present in food and feed in the world. NK 603 has been modified to be tolerant to the broad spectrum herbicide Roundup and thus contains residues of this formulation. MON 810 and MON 863 are engineered to synthesize two different Bt toxins used as insecticides. Approximately 60 different biochemical parameters were classified per organ and measured in serum and urine after 5 and 14 weeks of feeding. GM maize-fed rats were compared first to their respective isogenic or parental non-GM equivalent control groups. This was followed by comparison to six reference groups, which had consumed various other non-GM maize varieties. We applied nonparametric methods, including multiple pairwise comparisons with a False Discovery Rate approach. Principal Component Analysis allowed the investigation of scattering of different factors (sex, weeks of feeding, diet, dose and group). Our analysis clearly reveals for the 3 GMOs new side effects linked with GM maize consumption, which were sex- and often dose-dependent. Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver, the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system. We conclude that these data highlight signs of hepatorenal toxicity, possibly due to the new pesticides specific to each GM corn. In addition, unintended direct or indirect metabolic consequences of the genetic modification cannot be excluded.
    ---------------------------------
    Happy GMOs eating! Sergey
    It appears that the statistical models used to design and analyze the data can result in increased errors. It also looks to be suited where a large number of variables are being analyzed. I would think that once significant variables are identified another study done, with a more rigorous experimental design could be performed.

    It certainly seems like most of the opponents of GMO technology oppose the technology and assume it has to be bad. Most, if not all, of the genes being transferred are already naturally occuring. They are just transferred to new species. This has to be better than the old way mutations were created to try and find beneficial ones.

    Tom

  5. #65
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    Oct 2011
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    It appears that the statistical models used to design and analyze the data can result in increased errors. It also looks to be suited where a large number of variables are being analyzed. I would think that once significant variables are identified another study done, with a more rigorous experimental design could be performed.
    Unfortunately, no research was done and research, which was published was refused... sad


    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    It certainly seems like most of the opponents of GMO technology oppose the technology and assume it has to be bad. Most, if not all, of the genes being transferred are already naturally occuring. They are just transferred to new species. This has to be better than the old way mutations were created to try and find beneficial ones...
    Unfortunately, genes normally introduced by using viral "vectors" - this is exact reason why gene therapy is not widely used on humans - viral vectors are unpredictable and acts differently in different environment sometime causing cancer. As a scientist, I would be very careful with gene manipulation. The problem with GMOs is that it is used but it is not present in the labels and we do not know what is actually present in the food. It is not about science.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #66
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    Jan 2005
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    souris, manitoba, canada
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops


  7. #67
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    Default Re: Bees & genetically modified crops

    Inserting foreign genes using viral vectors is NOT necessarily better or safer or more effective than standard crop breeding, it's much more prone to unexpected results. Unknown unknows as the lingo goes, meaning that one can be very much surprised by a result completely unanticipated by one's prior research and experience.

    There are a number of theoretical problems that remain unresolved, although I don't know of any in actual crop plants, but the notion that the inserted genes are going to stay just where they were up isn't rational. Corn in particular has a very fluid genome, and viable corn pollen travels MUCH further than the evidence indicated when things like BT corn were first introduced. BT corn is now found all over the Americas, probably by simple wind transfer of pollen in native crops, most of which are open pollinated outside the USA. There is also some evidence that genes can travel between species via bacterial or viral gene transfer, we really don't know everything about biology yet.

    I'm personally more concerned about the reduction in variation growing just a handful of crop varieties causes -- I'm old enough to remember the Texas Cytoplasm disaster in the early 70's when the majority of the hybrid corn in the US was produced using a single type of male sterile corn (to save on de-tasseling the male parent of the cross) and that particular genome included high susceptibility to a blight. Wiped out a huge part of the corn crop for a least one season. What happens when no one has a separate product and this happens again, as it likely will? No food? Not a good plan.

    Peter

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