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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Danbury,Ct. USA
    Posts
    1,966

    Post

    Hello Flowergirl,
    While I hate to see more regulations about bees I feel that you must be protected. My son is allergic, at least to wasps. He had an ER visit and must carry an epipen. This, as many people don't know is not a panacea. Epinephrin is strong medicine with side effects and should be witheld until absolutely needed. (keep some liquid Benadryl around as a half-measure).
    Beekeepers, with their close experience with being stung, tend to deny this "reaction stuff" in others. I think the neighbors don't really believe you. Now it's become a power struggle. It strikes me that , being forwarned, and still placing bees next to you...these neighbors would be wide open to legal action should you be injured. This, whether it's their bees or not that sting you. That would certainly turn me off if I were stubborn.
    This must be said. A hive of bees an acre away is not as terrible a threat as you imagine. 80,000 sounds like a lot but there's usually less and most of them are in the hive. In the spring there's a lot less. You really have to work to make a foraging honey bee sting you. A light veil and some gardening gloves would be a partial solution if you do not prevail. After all, it is your allergy.
    A local school banned peanuts in any form because 1 girl was allergic to them. It's a similar problem.

    Dickm

    [This message has been edited by dickm (edited April 26, 2004).]

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    24

    Post

    Bjorn Bee,

    First, I was invited to join the board by Barry to present my side of the issue, after some disparaging and false comments were made about me by other members on this board. I agreed to join because I think there is a need for education and understanding on this issue. We were having an informative and civil conversation. I am not seeking an ordinances against beekeepings, that was an error by the reporter. My motives are simple: I want the beekeepers to locate the bees down the street so I won't have to stay indoors all summer. FYI, I have not been stung since I have lived at this address.

    Barry promised me the discussion would be civil. I will report your post to him immediately, as it violates the board rules requiring all posts to be civil.

    Pat

  3. #23
    kookaburra Guest

    Post

    Hello again

    First, it is commendable that you are willing to place yourself in the midst of the opposition.

    One thing to consider is this: I know the neighbors may seem like jerks and are putting you out so you can't go outside.

    Have you tried putting up with the honeybees for a while to see how it does? Have you talked to the neighbors about if the bees become a nuisance/threat? If they thought that their neighbor would die because of their bees, they wouldn't put them there. If their bees threaten the neighbor, they would probably be happy to move them.

    I know if my neighbors had a real issue that I couldn't solve by moving the bees/fences/watering cans, I would definately move them.

    I guess my feelings is that you are inconvenienced, but sometimes things turn out different than that we fear. Is it worth the fight? Maybe it is, but then again maybe you might find out that its not.
    Either way, there will always be bees around.

    my advice for the Lesinski's? Move. I understand how you feel, but I also can understand how they feel.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    24

    Post

    Kookaburra,

    The problem with a trial period is what if I am stung
    and have an anaphylactic reaction. They do not appear concerned about my health issue at all,
    which is why I had no choice but to go to the town.

    I think the gentlemen who said it is like a peanut allergy in school is correct. The difference is peanuts
    don't fly.

    Pat


    Have you tried putting up with the honeybees for a while to see how it does? Have you talked to the neighbors about if the bees become a nuisance/threat? If they thought that their neighbor would die because of their bees, they wouldn't put them there. If their bees threaten the neighbor, they would probably be happy to move them.

    I know if my neighbors had a real issue that I couldn't solve by moving the bees/fences/watering cans, I would definately move them.

    I guess my feelings is that you are inconvenienced, but sometimes things turn out different than that we fear. Is it worth the fight? Maybe it is, but then again maybe you might find out that its not.
    Either way, there will always be bees around.

    my advice for the Lesinski's? Move. I understand how you feel, but I also can understand how they feel.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bridgewater VT. USA
    Posts
    238

    Thumbs down

    I AM UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND why anyone would want to live in such a place where you can look out your window and into your neighbors window unless it be family, let alone move to this type of area and attempt to keep Bees this is obviously not a good situation. Granted this type of neighborhood may be a close nit group but I for one could not abide living where my neighbor can dictate what and how I conduct my affairs on my own property. This country was founded on the premise that we are all endowed with certain inalienable rights among those being LIFE, LIBERTY AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Being THAT I FEEL beekeeping falls under pursuit of happiness I would consider this to be unconstitutional but then again I would not willingly choose to live where my closest neighbor could be hit by a stone thrown by my hand in any direction.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080
    Flowergirl,
    Please help me in pointing out what part of my comments were not civil. (Keeping my comments in context of course.) Then maybe I can "report" to Barry also about any misunderstandings. Or am I to assume that because my opinion is "opposing" as Barry already pointed out, deems it to be uncivil in some manner?


  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,397

    Post

    << I do ask what purpose it was to invite a person who is seeking bans and ordinances against beekeeping, and even solicits a beekeeping discussion group as to advise in dealing with the situation.>>

    As it turns out BjornBee, I invited Pat to the Board. What a shame if a group of over 1000 beekeepers can't give constructive input to a dilemma as this. I have enough faith in the membership here to know good advice will come forth.

    << To me, if there is that many people allergic to bees, than the only alterantive would be the total elimination of beekeeping. Just to be safe.>>

    Now your flying off the handle and making extreme comments. No, not total elimination of beekeeping, but certainly moderate protection for those living in close communities. It no longer is just your right when what you do affects others. I have a situation going on right now that I am dealing with. My neighbor (actually a liquor store across the street as I live right near downtown) is infringing on my right to not see lewd acts in public. I don't mind him making a living and abiding by the laws that we all must submit to. However, I, along with my kids, witness people getting out of their cars, walking over to the dumpster, taking a piss, and then buying their liquor and leaving. I just moved here a few months ago and the police and I are becoming well acquainted. The police said the store owner is responsible to police his own parking lot and make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen. If it continues, the liquor license won't be renewed.

    scsasdsa wrote:

    <<This country was founded on the premise that we are all endowed with certain inalienable rights among those being LIFE, LIBERTY AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.>>

    Yea, and back in those days, if you didn't like what your neighbor did, you just shot him. Quoting one line from the Declaration of Independence like this is taking it out of context. The very words that follow it are:

    "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

    So sure, you have your rights for happiness, as long as they don't conflict with the laws of the land that are instituted by our Government whom we elect. Our country sure lacks when it comes to community.

    Regards,
    Barry

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

    Post

    Flying off the handle. Lets review. There is no law being broke as there is no ordinance as of this time. Meaning no prior disturbance existed. No on has been injured by thier bees. and yet a nuisance complaint has been brought forth. Fear is not justification for limiting another persons right. A percieved or imagined threat is good enough to limit this persons right as the law states at this time? What country do we live in?
    I said more to the story exists. And lo and behold, the story writer is now wrong about the facts...after I questioned them. As stated by flowergirl.

    Barry,
    I have taken opposite sides on many issues. I'm for the action in Iraq, I do not like PETA's tactics, I have questioned erroneous statements in "un-named" comments by other members of this board, I don't think we need the UN's approval, and yes I questioned a persons request from this site to help in going to a township/zoning in an attempt to limit another beekeepers hobby, when no laws been broken or harm has come from the hives in question. If I had to do it all agin, I would. Sorry if you are on the other side. It must irritate you, for you to comment in a negative way concerning my contribution to this forum. I'll try to limit myself in the future to make you happy. I just personally hate sheep. And I hate blind sheep even more.

    My support and best wishes to the Lewsinski's tonight, and for every beekeeper, no make that every person, trying to stop from being persecuted, prior to any law being broken or harm being felt. What country are we from anyways????

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
    Posts
    1,015

    Post

    If it were me as the beekeeper I would find a better place for my hives because I believe the neighbors about not wanting the hives in the neighborhood and being very adiment about it. Some people have lifethretning reactions to bee stings and I like to get along with my neighbors. I say this as a frient to all.
    Clint(with 505 hives)

    ------------------
    Clinton Bemrose
    just South of Lansing Michigan

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,397

    Post

    Well BjornBee, when you make outlandish remarks about someone's motive and infer it to be the case here, I wouldn't take kindly to it either. I see no evidence that such ulterior motives are at play here. Civility has nothing to do with one's opinion or right and wrong. It has to do with the way we conduct ourselves.
    1. Courteous behavior; politeness.
    2. A courteous act or utterance.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    24

    Post

    scasacsa,

    If the Lesinskis bees were going to stay on their property, I would not have a problem. But the corrollary to the right to do what you want on your property as long as you do not interfere with the use or enjoymeent of your neighbor's property or create a health issue. The bees are going to be in my
    yard, endangering me and preventing me from enjoying and maintaining my property. Both sides have property rights here.

    You are also right that this is not a good place for bees. It is a subdivision. We all have small one acre lots, there are lots of children and dogs and other animals around.

    I didn't ask to have this allergy. I would prefer not to have it, as I love nature. But this is who I am. Why the Lesinskis didn't check with their neighbors before moving into the neighborhood is a good question.

    Pat

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Castle, VA USA
    Posts
    90

    Post

    Bjorn Bee, what's wrong with sheep, my Mama was a sheep.
    Seriously, I wonder why they told their neighbors they were bringing in bees? I wonder if they would have ever known? They could probably, if they wanted flowers, plant flowers that wouldn't attract bees, such as roses.
    I can sympathize however, I am allergic to vespids, but if I'm going to die for a bee, I would rather it make honey.
    Doesn't sound like much of a place to live, let alone keep bees.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Fredericksburg, Va
    Posts
    796

    Big Grin

    Some of us are just more sensitive to bee stings than others (some of this group even claim to be allergic). However, there is another group of people that are truly allergic to bee stings and for them, it is a life threatening danger. There are even enough people allergic to the smell of peanuts that they no longer serve them on airplanes.

    I do not think there is a right or wrong side to this story. Once the differences between the neighbors reached the point that they went looking for legislative assistance, it became a no win for the guy wanting to keep bees in his backyard.

    After being confronted with the problem, he would have to be fairly dumb to place 'FlowerGirl' at risk and face potential law suits in this day and age (there are about as many suit happy lawyers as there are bees). The potential of disagreeable neighbors and ‘control freak’ subdivision homeowner associations are what led me to buy in the country.

    My recommendation would be move the bees to some friend’s location - then after the honey crop give a jar of honey to all the neighbors. Maybe even get an observation hive and do a few presentations. Eventually things may change - as long as no laws are passed.


    [This message has been edited by JohnBeeMan (edited April 26, 2004).]

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,299

    Post

    Since I do make my living (such as it is ) from beekeeping,moving a yard of bees at the wrong time can cost me a lot of income.For one or two hives to be moved would not be any big deal for me and I would just do it to keep the peace.Ask me to move 50 and there better be a **** good reason.I can see why they want to make an issue of it but that isnt where I would pick my fight.My philosophy is if my neighbors have a problem with me lets talk and work it out.Go to the law first and I will fight you.Sounds like you tried to work it out with them and offered a reasonable solution.They should put them at the other place.
    Also I was careful not to say that YOU werent allergic.But if there are 2 million people allergic to bee stings there must be 20 million who think they are because they had a bit of swelling.Whenever someone tells me they are allergic(quite often)I ask a few innocent questions .Most often they just had a normal reaction,not the life threatening symptoms of the truly allergic.I know a couple of people who really are and its no joke.

    [This message has been edited by loggermike (edited April 26, 2004).]

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,925

    Post

    >If the Lesinskis bees were going to stay on their property, I would not have a problem... The bees are going to be in my
    yard, endangering me and preventing me from enjoying and maintaining my property. Both sides have property rights here.

    Not to disagree with that. But I had bees in several cities over many years and only had one complaint. I wasn't home at the time and my daughter went over to talk to the neighbor. He had some white sugar all over the table next to his grill where he was BBQing. He said my bees were bothering him. My daughter pointed out that the bees that were there were only after the sugar. She then pointed out that we have buckfasts and that these were all Italians and Caucasians. She also pointed out that you can tell where they live by where they fly when they leave. During the conversation a lot of bees came and went and eventually one of the Buckfasts showed up. My daughter got it to crawl on her finger and brushed the hair on it's back while explaining that this was the only bee that was ours and sure enough when it was done getting sugar it flew straight back to my yard. The point is, though, although my hive was only 150 yards away most of those bees were not from my hive. I don't think the bees from my hive made any significant difference in the amount of bees in his yard. Even with him providing free food for the taking with the sugar on the table outside.

    I sypathize about your concerns. But bees exist in the real world in numbers that are probably going to be fairly constant in your yard regardless of the neighbors having a hive or not. I probably do notice a difference in my yard since I have about 20 hives here.

    I do hope you and your neighbor get this solved and I am sorry that you are going through this.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    24

    Post

    Thank you all very much for your thoughtful comments. It helps me to understand the beekeeper
    perspective. I feel as though we are not speaking the same language. What is sad is that I invited these
    same people into my home last Christmas. I fear that
    the damage to the neighborhood is irreparable. I hope I am wrong.

    I am hoping they will accept the proposal of the gracious lady down the street. I'll let you know what happens, then I promise I will leave


  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Hancock, NH
    Posts
    85

    Post

    Sometimes I should just keep quiet, and other times I can't. Inasmuch as the neighbors need to recognize the allergy this poor woman suffers from (and I do believe you) they also have a right to keep the bees on their property, provided they do not interfere with their neighbors.

    Now with that said I can't help wonder why this woman, who is deathly allergic to bees, would keep any gardens on her property that would attract bees or hornets or wasps. If I were her I would have the most beautiful lawn with no weeds and no flowers, unless she found some that won't attract any type of bee. If she were to maintain her yard this way then no bee would care to wander into her yard, even if their were 10 hives next door. In case no one has noticed bees look for nectar and pollen, remove them and you will remove the treat of seeing bees.

    We all know that even if the neighbor moved their hives, bees are going to go to this lady's flowers from somewhere, and she still has the potential to get stung. I am quite sure that she has seen a bee or hornet or wasp eating nectar from her flowerer's before, yet she still chooses to raise flowers regardless of her allergy.

    It is tis society that puts the blame on everyone else that really gets me, if she is so gosh darn afraid of bees why does she have a garden? when she eliminates the attractant from her yard she will not get any bees, its pretty simple, this is not the neighbors fault, this is her CHOICE to keep flowers. She should not blame the neighbor when she is actively inviting the bees in!


  18. #38

    Post

    Wow. Interesting to see such passionate discussion. The mysterious Barry so many times over.

    I think inviting opposing points to the table is important for any problems. Good for you Barry. Wish the Lesinskis would have chimed in. I am curious what laws are on the books for such issues.

    I think some of the points, even sarcastic ones are important. They kind of reduce things to ridiculousness (some fancy term for that).

    I think that neighbor with problem took resonable approach. I would consider moving my bees, especially with a good yard nearby. But I am approaching a point where I am a sideliner not a hobbyist. I live in an area without zoning on purpose. Then again there is no leash law, and I have to take care of stray pit bulls from time to time (though I am not into guns enough to ride around with them in my truck with my 3 yr old daughter in the truck while I check bees. But I loved the gun discussion. When will these folks start the gun part of beesource?)

    I think there is too much @#%$*&^ politeness in the world. Too much prozac, too many people afraid to step out of line. Too much narrow mindedness. Too many people that think they are allergic to honeybees. Too much editing of real thoughts. These are issues that we are all passionate about SO BE PASSIONATE!

    If someone is bright enough to be a lawyer and find good beeyards, surely they could get allergy shots. Apiaries nearby or not, has to be worth it.

    Interesting that people with allergies want to consume local honey and bee pollen.

    I think all beekeepers should make mead. Age it well and share it with your neighbors as you explain how bees are not defensive when they are not protecting there house! In the time I have been a beekeeper I have not been stung without actually working a hive. Barry, tell your kid to wear sandals and stop worrying/watching.

    Property rights are important. What is the difference between pit bulls roaming my land and honeybees roaming your land? If I can shoot the pit bulls, can you do something to the bees? The commercial beekeeper I work with swears that the big guys in the bee industry poison hives that move in on theire territory. If you moved within a mile or two of folks he knows, watch out. Perhaps flowergirl could handle things similarly? Then all the feral hives within 8 miles would die also...



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

    Post

    Barry,
    I have already asked flowergirl to qoute or spell out any uncivil comments I had made. None are coming. My comments were in making a point and should be taken in context. I will also ask you to point out my "outlandish" comments and accusations. I see none.

    Think about this.

    The first time someone said, I don't want a gun in my community. Nobody probably took it serious. But look at where we are today. Some want them all taken.

    The first time someone said, I don't want god referenced in public, nobody probably took it serious. But look where were at today. Some want god eliminated outright. I'm waiting for the day someone says we should not see churches or thier signs from taxpayer funded roads, as they are offensive. And thats not crazy talk in this country.

    The first time someone said, I dont want hunting in my community, nobody took it serious. But look where we are today. Anti-gun and anti-hunting groups finding alternative methods with endangered species, off limit protective areas and the like to limit and halt hunting.

    The first time someone said I dont want bees in my community, nobody took it serious. But look where we are today. Most communities including my own, having zoning laws passed to stop beekeeping although nobody has died in recorded history in this township from a bee sting. The only complaint made by anyone was in reference to bee poop on his car.

    In all these examples are groups of people, like PETA, sierra club, gun control, and the like, who use alternative methods to slowly change laws over time one community at a time. It was mentioned about 2 million people with allergic symptoms, and we are discussing one case, with pending results for one community. If this were duplicated by and somehow manipulated by a group such as PETA, that anybody with severe reactions could get beekeeping banished, you figure with the numbers already qouted, what would happen to beekeeping. To say or question that there may be alternative motives, whether personal or more, is not out of line.

    Nothing amazes me on this site anymore. I guess helping someone on a forum with 1200 diehard beekeepers, with advise on how to keep beekeeping out of her community is just another example that makes me shake my head.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Lenexa, Kansas
    Posts
    445

    Post

    I think that I quit reading this thread too soon. I didn't feel that I had anything to say until Flowergirl showed up, but now I do.

    Some people will not believe that there is a serious problem unless you are in a wheelchair or are vomiting. I don't know why, they just will NOT!

    I include people who expect a person with inch thick glasses to be able to see when they take them off (I've seen it happen often), people who choose to believe that nobody NEEDS air conditioning (5000 people died of heat in Italy one year alone before people started air conditioning their homes), "ladies" who insist that a child eat a cookie even AFTER he tells her he has a peanut allergy (a 9 year old child died in our comunity some years back after a lady browbeat him into eating a peanut cookie AFTER he said he was allergic and could not), and people who are honestly allergic to bee stings.

    Flower girl, I have been on both sides of the fence. My lifelong "bee allergy" turned out to be a yellowjacket allergy. But, growing up with even THINKING that I have a bee allergy has taught me a few things.

    A 6' wide SOLID fence between his hives and your yard will do a pretty good job of keeping them out of your yard, *IF* you have nothing that will ATTRACT the bees. No clover, no mint, no hummingbird feeders full of syrup. Roses, lilacs, and other flowers that bees can't use are fine. Honestly a solid fence will keep them out. They will fly up to get over the fence, and then fly straight out OVER your head.

    Unless your deck is raised? Then, put a solid barrier on the side facing him.

    I am going to assume that you know better than to hit at a bee that hovers near you. If you have only been stung 4 times in a few decades of life, you likely know better. If a bee hovers, I used to quietly back away. He won't follow forever. If a bee landed on me, I used to just wait until he left.

    Lastly, a pox on the house of the gent who thinks that other peoples problems are funny. In a perfect world, HE would be building a 6' fence around his bees so that they would not bother the neighbors. In fact, many communities insist on it. If he didn't want to, then he should have taken up the kind offer of the gent with the goldenrod.

    I know that you are angry, I would be too at their attitude. They are jerks. But, bees forage far afield, and they don't stay where there is no food for them. And, with a tall fence they WILL fly over you and yours. (Sting allergies are hereditary, you may want to have your kids tested).

    Last, but not least, I THINK that they have recently improved the bee sting desensitization shots, so that they are no dangerous. I know that they used to be.

    You might want to check into this, many insurance plans now pay for them, now. Peace of mind is a wonderfull thing.

    Good luck.

    [This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 26, 2004).]

    [This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 26, 2004).]

    [This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 26, 2004).]

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