View Poll Results: Do you want an Apiary Inspection Service?

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  • yes

    22 36.07%
  • no

    39 63.93%
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  1. #81
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    <In my opinion, it either needs to be all or none.>

    None.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  2. #82
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    Thanks, pj.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  3. #83
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    peggjam, You've made it clear that you don't want regulation of your beehives and your behavior.

    Does it bother you then, to be part of a "regulated" discussion? The moderators are the regulators, the inspectors of our posts.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  4. #84
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    The problem with many types of law enforcement is that you get little people who are all swollen up with themselves and can't handle power, and these people are attracted to jobs like that.

    As a general principle, the State is much too big, and that which would add power to the State is bad and that which would reduce the power of the State is good.

  5. #85
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    Mark,

    <<Does it bother you then, to be part of a "regulated" discussion? The moderators are the regulators, the inspectors of our posts.>>

    The diference here being, if you choose not to participate in this board, you can still raise bees in the free world. But if you refuse to participate in your regulated world, the options are much fewer.

    Walid
    The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.<br />..................Albert Einstein

  6. #86
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    &lt;peggjam, I don't understand why you want to assume the worse about me, so often. By the words you use, you seem to think that I or other Inspectors think that you are dumb and stupid. I don't know you to be one way or the other. I work on the premiss that each individual is the same and deserves the same respect as the next, until they show me otherwise.&gt;

    I brought this over from the thread that got closed because I feel that it needs a response. I don't assume anything about you Mark. My responses are aimed at the NYS Inspection Program, of which you are a part, or at least used to be a part of. The reputation and abuses done by inspectors of this program in the past have earned you this distiction. There is nothing personal, strcictly aimed at you, because I don't know you. It seems funny that we had this disscusion on here about the problems of this program, and all of a sudden the Ethics Committe decides that there is a problem with commercial inspectors being state inspectors. Considering they have not had a problem with it in the last 50-60 years?????????????

    &lt;What about your Amish neighbors? It seems to me like maybe you'd like them looked at, no?&gt;

    I've put up with them this long, so I guess it doesn't make much difference. Besides, I don't see them allowing anyone to inspect them anyway.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  7. #87
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    ikkybeer, yes, I can see your point.

    peggjam, thanks for that reply. May there be respect and peace betwen us, if and when we do meet. Who knows, you might recognize my name at a beekeepers meeting.

    It is too bad that the program has a bad reputation with so many. Beekeepers have a great historical memory. We are personally involved with or craft.

    The interesting thing to me about the Ethics Board ruling is it's timing. Considering the events of the last 5 months. There are a number of things that have happened that may have brought the Apiary Inspection Program to the Ethics Board's attention and review.

    As far as the Amish, if they are in an area where an active Inspector lives or works and that Inspector is aware of the fact that they have bee hives, they will get inspected. I've never had an Amish person refuse me, when it comes to inspection. It could happen, just hasn't yet. So, if you want them inspected, you can probably figure out what to do.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  8. #88
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    ikkybeer, the options in the real world may be fewer but, at least here in New York, if you don't want your bees looked at "usually" you have that option. If a need appears, from things in your area, such as higher levels of AFB occuring around someone, then the regulators are going to want to look at your colonies too. You can still slow things down, to try to stop any inspection, legally. And if the need seems to warrant it, legal action to enforce the law is an option that the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts can exercise. A very rare occurance, of which I only know about one happening in the last 20 years. Most folks, when presented with the situation in the right light, i.e. benefits to them and their civic duty to their neighbors, agree to the inspection.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  9. #89
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    Hi Mark,

    I appreciate your experience and knowledge in the bee business, and the inspection business. I believe it is of great value to you however you wish to use it.

    You can look at the actors in the inspection scenario in a couple of ways. They both are similar in that an inspector (a professional) visits a beekeeper with the intention of mitigating some valid or perceived threat to the community.

    The inspector can come in the form of a state inspector, a representative of a group, or simply a neighbor beekeeper. If the understanding is that the beekeeper can refuse the inspection or accept it and make any and all decisions, then it is not a problem with me.

    &lt;&lt;Most folks, when presented with the situation in the right light, i.e. benefits to them and their civic duty to their neighbors, agree to the inspection.&gt;&gt;

    Now there is a moral duty that a beekeeper has to himself, his neighbors, his bees to do the right thing. This is more important than a civic duty because I take that to mean that the state will assume the position of monitoring that duty. Their intent they say is to safeguard the community, but this front is usually a disquise for controlling their subjects through ever increasing fees and regulations.

    So when you say presented in the right light, you understand part of the light spectrum is that blue flashing light.

    Walid
    The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.<br />..................Albert Einstein

  10. #90
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    Hi All:

    After reading this entire thread, I am reminded of the saying that "he who is governed least is governed best".

    That said, I agree with Michael Bush that the poll should have a question allowing for voluntary inspections. Since this poll doesen't give me that choice, I voted NO.

    Tom Miller

  11. #91
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    64% for, 36% against

    That's a big minority to me.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  12. #92
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    How about the three choices:

    Mandatory
    On request
    None

    You might get an entirely different outcome.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #93
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    Yup, peggjam took up that suggestion. And so far, with only 5 votes, the results are 60/40.

    Hopefully more people will participate in peggjams poll.

    If they don't, what does that tell us? That beekeepers don't like to take polls? Most beekeepers are content to keep their opinions to themselves? Most beekeeperas don't care? Or none of the above? Or something else?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  14. #94
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    Even if more people do take the poll, the results will be a general feeling nationwide, not nessacerly for NY. If NY beekeeps want an inspection service, we need one that works better than the ones in the past have. At this point, I would suspect that we will end up with nothing, because there isn't enough beekeeps that want one, or are willing to support one that will work.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  15. #95
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    You may be right but, I would think that at least a few Inspectors would be kept working to serve the needs of Migratory Beekeepers who need permits to travel to other states.

    Time will tell.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  16. #96
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    "I would think that at least a few Inspectors would be kept working to serve the needs of Migratory Beekeepers who need permits to travel to other states."

    I should hope so, but it maybe a paid for service by the beekeep.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  17. #97
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    I've been thinking about this conflict of interest thing.

    What if as an apiary Inspector/Beekeeper you weren't allowed to sell any hive products in the state of NY? Nucs, honey, equipment, nothing. And no pollination. And if your apiaries were too close, say 3 miles, to another persons apiary, let's say, you'd have to move your apiary. Any honey produced would have to be sold out of state.

    Wouldn't that almost eliminate the "C o'I"?

    With the honey economy the way that it is, how is anyone in competition with anyone else as far as bulk sales to packers? Certainly I am not getting more for my honey from a packer because of another beekeeper and if I don't sell my honey you wouldn't get more for yours. Or am I wrong? Tell me how, please?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  18. #98
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    "I've been thinking about this conflict of interest thing.

    What if as an apiary Inspector/Beekeeper you weren't allowed to sell any hive products in the state of NY? Nucs, honey, equipment, nothing. And no pollination. And if your apiaries were too close, say 3 miles, to another persons apiary, let's say, you'd have to move your apiary. Any honey produced would have to be sold out of state."

    I think your looking for a way to have your cake and eat it too, but I'll bite. This would settle the C of I for me...not to say it would for anyone else...
    1)If the inspector keeps bees:
    Inspections should be volintary
    2)They should be schuled at the convienance of the beekeep, not the state.
    3)If any damage to hives is apparent within 10 days of inspection, the state pays the damage.
    4)Inspectors would not be allowed to place a yard in an area where there has been an inspection performed by him in the last year.\
    5)Any and all lab testing of samples suspected of AFB are paid for by the state, and options other than burning are allowed, with follow up inspections required.
    6)Inspectors would not be allowed to recommand any of his own services or the services of any other beekeep.
    7)Inspectors would not be allowed to inspect and certifly their own yards, and it must be done by someone with no C of I. Another words you can't have your buddy inspect your yards.

    That's a start, but I reserve the right to add more as I happen to think of them!!!!!!
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  19. #99
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    pj, If you don't mind, I will address your comments in order.
    1.Clarify please? Whose inspections would be voluntary? The Inspectors or all beekeepers? I'm confused. Not unusual.
    2.Right now, the Inspector is supposed to contact the beekeeper and schedule an inspection. If the beekeeper wants to be present, the inspector is supposed to accomodate the beekeeper. The beekeeper can say, "No inspection unless I am there." If you don't believe me, ask Lloyd Spear.

    Lloyd, I hope you don't mind me mentioning you in this regard. Perhaps you would like to comment on your stipulations on time of inspections of your apiaries.

    Believe it or not you can even say, "No inspection." The Inspector will want to know why and try to convince you of the importance of inspection. But if you insist, he should back down.

    On problem that would cause this to not work in your favor is if the Inspector has some reason to believe that your bees are a source of infection in the area.

    3.Other than obvious equipment damage, how would that be verifiably attributed to the actions of the Inspector? I really urge all beekeepers to insist on beekeeper presence at the time of inspection.

    4.How big of an area would this entail? Such as with me. I usually run between 600 and 800 colonies, in yards from Ft. Covington Center, in Franklin Co. to Heuvelton, in St. Lawrence Co. That would be an area that is about 60 or more miles long. I also inspect hives in St. Law. and Franklin Co.s. Traveling to Jefferson Co. is a 1.5 hr trip. And Clinton Co. is a 1.25 hr trip.

    5.Lab tests are paid for by the state. We tryed alternative methods of control. It was found that the same sites continued to have AFB and that beekeepers with light infections don't always keep up their treatment schedules. And then there the ever growing numbers of AFB that are terramycin resistant. Do you really think that we should be promoting the use of harder and harder chemicals?

    6.This is already true.

    7.This is already true too. I can't and don't inspect my own colonies for he purposes of interstate transport. Can't have my buddys inspect my colonies? Since I work with the other Apiary Inspectors, even at a distance, are they all suspect, in the buddy department? Wouldn't anyone be suspect? Maybe if you could find an enemy of mine to inspect my colonies, after he did that a time or two, wouldn't he be suspect? He might even be my buddy by then.

    I'm not arguing that some of what you suggest isn't practical, though some of it isn't real practical, I'm just giving you my bent on your ideas.

    Did I use too much double speak or hair splitting talk? I hope not.

    I await your response.

    The cake remark, that was your way of saying that I wanted to have it both ways. Be a Beekeeper and an Inspector? Well, yeah. I guess so.

    But even if it isn't me, I'd rather have someone who knows at least as much about bees and diseases and pests as I do and hopefully more.

    Wouldn't you, if youm had to have your colonies inspected?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  20. #100
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    "1.Clarify please? Whose inspections would be voluntary? The Inspectors or all beekeepers? I'm confused. Not unusual."

    All inspections would be on a voluntary basis. I wouldn't want my inspector to have bees in an area that I operate in. That would suggest that beekeeps who are inspectors, inspect areas that are away from their areas of operations. That way they wouldn't be tempted to move bees into an area they inspect because of distance.

    "2.Right now, the Inspector is supposed to contact the beekeeper and schedule an inspection. If the beekeeper wants to be present, the inspector is supposed to accomodate the beekeeper. The beekeeper can say, "No inspection unless I am there." If you don't believe me, ask Lloyd Spear."

    I don't want a supposedta, if the beekeep can't be present for the inspection, NO inspection.

    "3.Other than obvious equipment damage, how would that be verifiably attributed to the actions of the Inspector? I really urge all beekeepers to insist on beekeeper presence at the time of inspection."

    Well, when the inspection was done, the queen was there, later it was discovered that the queen was squashed, for some reason or another. State pays for it. Now, there will be some beekeeps that would take advantage of this, and squash the queen, but the vast majority wouldn't, and the few can be weeded out. Thats one example, I am sure you can come up with a few more on your own.

    "4.How big of an area would this entail? Such as with me. I usually run between 600 and 800 colonies, in yards from Ft. Covington Center, in Franklin Co. to Heuvelton, in St. Lawrence Co. That would be an area that is about 60 or more miles long. I also inspect hives in St. Law. and Franklin Co.s. Traveling to Jefferson Co. is a 1.5 hr trip. And Clinton Co. is a 1.25 hr trip."

    Read answer for 1. You'll see where I'm going with this.

    "7.This is already true too. I can't and don't inspect my own colonies for he purposes of interstate transport. Can't have my buddys inspect my colonies? Since I work with the other Apiary Inspectors, even at a distance, are they all suspect, in the buddy department? Wouldn't anyone be suspect? Maybe if you could find an enemy of mine to inspect my colonies, after he did that a time or two, wouldn't he be suspect? He might even be my buddy by then."

    I would suggest a supervisor preform the inspection.

    "I'm not arguing that some of what you suggest isn't practical, though some of it isn't real practical, I'm just giving you my bent on your ideas."

    If you want an inspection service where inspectors own bees, then you need to make it practical.

    "Did I use too much double speak or hair splitting talk? I hope not."

    You did fine.

    "The cake remark, that was your way of saying that I wanted to have it both ways. Be a Beekeeper and an Inspector? Well, yeah. I guess so."

    Yes.

    "Wouldn't you, if youm had to have your colonies inspected?"

    Yes, assuming inspection is maniditory.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

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