View Poll Results: Do you want an Apiary Inspection Service?

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  • yes

    22 36.07%
  • no

    39 63.93%
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  1. #61
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    Hi John,

    Thanks for the compliments. I kinda like this bee crowd.

    Walid
    The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.<br />..................Albert Einstein

  2. #62
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    &gt;&gt;When you design a test you certainly do state it as fact.

    No. We've had the debate before about "facts" versus "hypotheses." Look up the definitions again. By the ways that I read the definitions, the two are mutually exclusive. Facts can't be hypotheses, hypotheses can't be facts.

    When you design a test, whether stated explicitly or not, you start with a series of alternative hypotheses. Then you attempt to disprove them.

    Since you used the term, what is a "double blind" test? What's the advantage of a double blind test? I know it's one of those great "scientific" sounding terms, but should all tests be double-blind?

    &gt;&gt;Now you've changed your claim.

    &gt;&gt;You claimed regulation provides the benefit.

    In this case, one of the regulations (or, actually, laws) sets the minimum distance. Not all apiary regulations will provide the same benefit. I never claimed that "all" regulations collectively provided the benefit.

    &gt;&gt;They are in principle.

    What's the principle? Really, how do laws and regulations differ?

    OK, I'll step off this one now. This thread was devoted to "Do you want an Apiary Inspection Service?" I think it's pretty clear to everyone that I see merit in having such a service. I also think it's pretty clear that others on the board feel the infringements imposed by inspection services outweigh any benefits to them. No need for me to argue further on this thread.

  3. #63
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    &lt;Kieck&gt;
    Look up the definitions again.

    I know what I'm talking about and you aren't reading what I said.

    &lt;Kieck&gt;
    alternative[s]

    Not necessarily.

    &lt;Kieck&gt;
    Since you used the term,

    I know what a double blind is, no, not all tests can even be double blind. You missed the point.

    &lt;Kieck&gt;
    I never claimed ...

    You claimed that regulation was good. The specific one cited is not the point. You have not supported this claim.

    &lt;Kieck&gt;
    What's the principle?

    The difference between protection and control.

    &lt;ikkybeer&gt;
    I kinda like this bee crowd.

    I think this site specifically is amazing. The information flow is just too cool.

    I keep typing ikkybear I noticed. Weird, because my brain reads it right but my fingers type it wrong.
    JohnF INTP

  4. #64
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    &lt;JohnF&gt;
    I keep typing ikkybear

    Probably has something to do with honey and winnie the pooh, lol. I could resemble a big bear, maybe I should change my moniker to sticky bear.

    Walid
    The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.<br />..................Albert Einstein

  5. #65
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    John, of course none of your premises (or even any parts thereof) are true but even so does not lead to a logical conclusion that AHB are not bad.

    Point?

    [size="1"][ January 19, 2006, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  6. #66
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    Joel,

    It's an exercise in critical thinking. If I were your math professor I would give you C. You got the answer right but you need to show your work. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    All of the premises except one can be proven false except one. #2 is completely subjective. It would be the one to create a super long debate that may end in a couple of normally friendly folks spitting online fire. Starts out along the line, Why is your truck so important, How does you having to wash your truck effect society, technically - can bees make FLY specks?, fly specks are good for automotive paint...

    I don't think it hurts to throw a little exercise into the frey every now and then to check what we are doing.

    This thread is really two different things. A philosophical argument and a political debate. I am hoping the philosophical argument sinks in. One is a search for truth and the other is a method to pass things off as truth.
    JohnF INTP

  7. #67
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    Well I'm assuming that's the point and if so are we extrapolating that onto this post to say that all the negatives in the inspection program don't make the inspection negative or am I completely missing it?

    John, enforcement in NYS is already being done by private organizations in other areas. They are not for profit. For example, we've all seen Animal Precinct. ASPCA is a private not for profit organization. There officers are appointed as NYS Peace Officers (full police powers for arrests, warrants etc when acting pursuant to their special duties) just by their virtue of employment as an officer or agent of the ASPCA.

    Do you think there is be an economic model for this (just enforcement powers not arrest)for inspections and how would it be modeled. With ASPCA types they usually have muncipal contracts that cover some costs and other monies are a result of animal redemption fees, fine returns and licensure fees. They are enforcing state and local laws as a private organization.

  8. #68
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    &lt;Joel&gt;
    am I completely missing it?

    You are spot on.

    &lt;Joel&gt;
    are not for profit.

    We have to be careful here, this is an IRS distinction and not an economic one.

    &lt;Joel&gt;
    There officers are appointed as NYS Peace Officers

    Oh my gosh, do they get training for that? I have family LEO and don't envy that job at all.

    &lt;Joel&gt;
    Do you think there is be an economic model for this (just enforcement powers not arrest)for inspections and how would it be modeled.

    Enforcement is a sticky word in your question. I'll come back to it later.

    Yes, if there is value in the inspection then there is an economic model that will support it. The best example for this industry I can come up with is to say that I would pay to know that the bees I buy have been looked at by someone in-the-know that sticks their neck out with their assessment. Unrelated to bees but a good example is to study the UL listing process.

    Now for enforcement. The free market "enforces" valuable things by preference. Sort of natural selection in all things economics. As an example, let's say sqkcrk takes my idea from above and makes a business out of it. He offers to package producers a certification service and will stamp each package with his seal. To the buyer he gurantees health and if unhealthy bees arrive he will buy the bees back at twice the cost. Sqkcrk finds one package producer that decides to give it a try. He advertises this fact. Sqkcrk also advertises his business to the package producers customers. The producer eventually improves his profitablity and the buyers start to move to him only. The "enforcement" is done by the producer's customers.

    Not all things in an economy show up directly. The broader you can see your economic footprint, the better your plan will be and the liklier it is to succeed.

    In this society you can also improve your probability of success by forcing people. There are any number of ways to do this, like: spreading the cost to others not involved through taxation, licenses, regulations, ordinances, approved lists, ... In my opinion you'll have to cross a moral boundary to do it, but then my morals aren't everyone's morals or even necessarily right.
    JohnF INTP

  9. #69
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    Since you mentioned morals.

    Is it amoral or unethical to knowingly sell AFB infected nucs?

    What about unknowingly? Amoral, unethical, wrong or just plain negligable?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #70
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    Darn! I meant immoral, of course.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #71
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    &lt;sqkcrk&gt;
    Is it amoral [immoral] or unethical to knowingly sell AFB infected nucs?

    No. It would be unethical to misrepresent what you are selling.

    For example, what if the buyer wants AFB infected nucs?
    JohnF INTP

  12. #72
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    Well, in that case do you think that a person who has AFB infected nucs should sell them at a premium?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  13. #73
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    Speaking of ethics. Check out the other two threads related to this topic.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #74
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    &lt;sqkcrk&gt;
    Well, in that case do you think that a person who has AFB infected nucs should sell them at a premium?

    He should sell them for no more than the market will bear and the buyer should buy them for no less.
    JohnF INTP

  15. #75
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    JohnF, are you just a philosopher or do you know anything about beekeeping seriously?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  16. #76
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    No, I am not just a philosopher and I know next to nothing about beekeeping.

    This site has been a great place to learn though.
    JohnF INTP

  17. #77
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    sqkcrk
    &lt;&lt;Is it amoral or unethical to knowingly sell AFB infected nucs?
    What about unknowingly? Amoral, unethical, wrong or just plain negligable?&gt;&gt;

    I believe WC Fields said, "You can't cheat an honest man".

    If a man knowingly sells AFB nucs, is the buyer possibly dishonest with himself for not discovering for himself that the nucs are not AFB infected? Wouldn't a buyer be dishonest with himself in believing that some seal of inspection does not actually guarantee that the nuc doesn't have AFB?

    Do you think that possibly under cover of an underbudgeted, stretched state inspection system, a seller of diseased nucs could get rid of them (amorally) easier than in a system where the buyer would be more honest with himself and make a serious personal investigation at his own time and expense?

    The unknowingly part is more difficult. Do you mean intentionally unknowing, like the hive doesn't seem to be doing so well, why don't I sell the frames without actually looking at them, therefore it is unknowing.

    Or do you mean, you sold some frames that were infected but the state inspected all your hives the day before and they were clean. This would be unknowing.

    Or do you mean, some inspection service is available but you choose not to inspect and sell a nuc anyway not having any idea it is infected?


    Walid
    Walid
    The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.<br />..................Albert Einstein

  18. #78
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    John, "C" that's what my logic professor in college gave me. the exercise did make me look at the issue from a different perspective. It got me looking for the actual problems and solutions as they do exist (or could for solutions). It suprising how we get stuck in our own bias and a simple mental excercise clears the cobwebs.

    Yes. The ASPCA officers have to complete a 40 hrs. school, are enforcing misdemeanors and felonies (cruelty laws). It is scary and so are some of the folks doing it.

    As to value, I know disease and symptoms inside out so there is no value to me in me paying someone to do it. (Although I also know how to fix my truck and often pay someone else to because my time is better spent doing what I do best). I need inspection when I migrate my hives. This means a professional inspector would somehow have to be qualified so as to have their certification recognized by other states.

  19. #79
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    Joel, If you went to FL, you cuold get a permit that wopuld allow you re-entry into FL, as long as you returned within 6 months. Maybe SC would be willing to do the same program. Has anyone ever inspected your bees in Sc? Fred Singleton does mine down there.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  20. #80
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    ikkybeer, Ole W.C. a;so said, "I never drink water, fish...." Darn, I forgot. Littl ears. Right, Barry.

    I was relly trying to find out if anyone thought that an Apiary Inspection service should eb charged with the responsibility of inspecting nucs.

    Now, I know that some would rather be left alone and let the AFB even things out, but I don't think that most folks really feel that way, if they think about it.

    There are plenty of folks who say, "Leave mine alone. But check so and so's bees. I think he may be rotten."

    Under those circumstances, if the inspector inspected the bees of a competeing beekeeper and not the first guy, wouldn't that be as bad as a "Conflict of Interest"?

    Wouldn't the Inspector be acting as the agent of the first beekeeper?

    In my opinion, it either needs to be all or none.

    If only some are inspected, aren't some getting preferential treatment and some neglect? Or you could look at it the other way, that being, that some are picked on and saome are getting left alone?

    Either way, no ones happy. In any case. Whether, all or none or like now.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

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