Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 82

Thread: Wrapping

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Post

    >>Analysis of readings taken during a 24-hour period shows that the temperature of the packed hives lagged behind that of the outside air for 6 to 8 hours.

    packed hives lag 6-8 hours behind outside air, and unpacked hives lag 1-3 hours,

    Yet, the cluster of the packed hives responds immediately with increasing temperature fluctuations than the unpacked hives do.
    Takes more time for the unpacked hives to respond to increasing temperature fluctuations, even if its hive body warms faster?

    Dont let the lag time fool you.

    [size="1"][ December 03, 2005, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Ian ][/size]
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    241

    Post

    Some may find this page of interest.

    http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/gilmar/revisited.html

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,360

    Post

    Pretty incredible statistics, great information. Thanks for the link! We are in the process of phasing out our southern operation due to the impending AHB and AHB which will work it's way north over the next couple of years. This exactly how I'd like to winter hives in the north. (or south for you )

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mosinee, WI
    Posts
    1

    Post

    Hello. I hope to contribute something as I am picking up a lot of tips from all of you.
    This year I used up all the roofing paper for something else so I wrapped the hives in several layers of black landscape fabric because I kept forgetting to go buy more roofing paper. The bees cling to the fabric on nice days and it is breathable, so I've had NO condensation this year so far. Plus, it was much easier to install. I rolled it around the hives a few times, folded the tops down to fit, and stapled the seam and a few staples around the entrances. Sometimes having ADD is very good for beekeeping.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Worthington, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    1,848

    Post

    Gabriella--sounds good to me!
    "Younz" have a great day, I will.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Post

    >>Sometimes having ADD is very good for beekeeping.

    I agree. little help sometimes goes a long way.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,360

    Post

    I've been on the fence on this issue until this year. The logic I've heard against it is in relation to loss of bees on sunny days when the inside temps are higher than outside due to solar gain. Mountaincamp posted his yearly results earlier this year and there appears to be a clear co-relation between wrapping and wintering success. There was also a link recently (within the last week) on this post that showed the results a Canadian operation had wintering wrapped singles (wraped in quads and well insultated as opposed to just felt or plastic). There results were also very dramatic, to the point they discontinued wintering any hives inside and were able to have hives that allowed them to sell nucs in the spring. Very similar results in the ABJ article about wintering hives in an insulated bldg with a timed ventalation fan. Of course we know bees don't heat the hive body, only the cluster. It seems though the less heat that escapes, the less wind that penetrates cracks between supers chilling the bees and increased ambient temperatures in hives would require less energy expended to heat, less food consumed and less stress on the cluster. As someone working hard to eliminate my southern operation most of what I'm reading supports wrapping (espcially with insulation in quads.

    I like the ideal of letting bees do what is natural. Unfortunately little of how we keep bees reflects that due to differences in heat and cold transferrence from different types of foundations and woodenware as well as food storage. We force bees to store their food in a square nest which is contraty to the best interest of a tight round winter cluster. Hives bodies are not as heavy as any tree trunk I've seen bees in and do not have the added balance of 40 degree tree sap which adds to the thermal gain on warm winter days from the middle of January on (in mya area) as sap rises on warmer days. With the continued spread of AHB's and AHB's I believe we will all need to winter more bees as packagages and queens become more expensive and hard to get during what will likely be a several year transition. If we want to think natural we have to think how we effect the biodynamics and what we do to adjust accodingly.

    Just my thoughts!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,492

    Post

    >I've been on the fence on this issue until this year.

    Hmm, I just got on the fence. I used to be on the other side. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    >The logic I've heard against it is in relation to loss of bees on sunny days when the inside temps are higher than outside due to solar gain.

    That was my logic until I watched the observation hive do well all winter while inside at 70 F.

    >Mountaincamp posted his yearly results earlier this year and there appears to be a clear co-relation between wrapping and wintering success.

    That's what I keep hearing, it just doesn't jive with the condensation problems I've had when I tried it with nucs (I've never tried it with a real hive).

    >Of course we know bees don't heat the hive body, only the cluster. It seems though the less heat that escapes, the less wind that penetrates cracks between supers chilling the bees and increased ambient temperatures in hives would require less energy expended to heat, less food consumed and less stress on the cluster.

    No matter how much you arge that they don't heat the hive, they do heat the hive. The colder it is in the hive the more quickly they lose heat and the more heat they have to make. They may not heat it much, but they ARE giving off heat and that heat is going into the hive.

    >As someone working hard to eliminate my southern operation most of what I'm reading supports wrapping (espcially with insulation in quads.

    So far I pushed all the hives together this year (no telescopic covers anymore), but didn't wrap yet. I am considering whether I will do the roofing felt or styrofoam or anything.

    > Hives bodies are not as heavy as any tree trunk I've seen bees in and do not have the added balance of 40 degree tree sap which adds to the thermal gain on warm winter days from the middle of January on (in mya area) as sap rises on warmer days.

    Exactly.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Wheatfield, IN
    Posts
    2,069

    Post

    Last year I wrapped with felt and folded it over the top then put the cover on. I had top entrances drilled in the top boxes. I still had alot of problems with condensation. I had so much on one hive that the wood inner cover (sheet of plywood) swelled way up. Even so I didn't lose a hive. Had I been running migratory tops though I believe it would have killed the hive. The inner covers absorbed alot of the water.

    This year I cut top entrances into my inner covers or migratory tops with my dado. When I wrapped, (I didn't wrap all hives)the felt stopped about an inch below where the telescoping top came down the side. I think with my entrances at the very top of the hive and my felt not holding the moisture in under the cover the condensation will be minimal. Time will tell.
    Dan Williamson
    B&C Honey Farm http://www.flickr.com/photos/9848229@N05/

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,360

    Post

    [No matter how much you arge that they don't heat the hive, they do heat the hive. The colder it is in the hive the more quickly they lose heat and the more heat they have to make. They may not heat it much, but they ARE giving off heat and that heat is going into the hive.]

    I live in house which I heat, some heat escapes outside, am I heating the outside, no. I agree with the concept colder temps inside the hive require more energy if that wasn't clear in my post.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,492

    Post

    >>[No matter how much you arge that they don't heat the hive, they do heat the hive.

    >I agree with the concept colder temps inside the hive require more energy if that wasn't clear in my post.

    I didn't mean "you" in particular. But I often hear the argument that the bees don't heat the hive so therefore it doesn't matter how big the space is or how insulated the space is.

    Anyone who has spent a winter in a varitey of tents would know this isn't true. It DOES matter how big it is, how insulated the walls are, if there are double walls or single etc. Very small differences in reflection (light colored vs dark) or insulation (thick vs thin or double vs single walls) or condensation (double vs single, controled ventilation vs closed off) or how drafty it is, make a huge difference in comfort even if the air temperature is not that different inside.

    The thermodynamics of the inside of a hive are related to the bees having to eveaporate water that drips on them (look up the amount of heat this takes. It's huge), the radiant heat reflecting off of the walls, the draft of cold wind blowing in, the dampness of the air transfering heat away more quickly than dry air, and other factors. Air temperature is not the only factor. If you don't believe that, on a cold day stand on the sunny leeward side of a house and then walk around and stand on the shady windward side of the house and I'll tell you the air temperature is exactly the same on both sides. Then you can tell me that it doesn't matter because the temperature is the same on both sides. Or on a hot day stand in a breezy shady place and then a sunny place with the wind blocked and remember the air temperature is exactly the same in both places. Thermodynamics is about more than air temperatures.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Crown Point , (NW) Indiana
    Posts
    529

    Post

    Has anyone ever tested "peaked" style covers?

    Its seems that the big concern is dripping condensation on the cluster. If, or when, condensation occurs, would it not follow the tape of the cover and drip to the walls, or even better yet, drip outside the hive walls if the cover was suffciently oversized the hive body dimensions?
    There is always more than one way to skin a cat, that's of course if you're into eating cats.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Round Top, New York - Northern Catskill Mtns.
    Posts
    1,895

    Post

    >>Mountaincamp posted his yearly results earlier this year and there appears to be a clear co-relation between wrapping and wintering success.

    >That's what I keep hearing, it just doesn't jive with the condensation problems I've had when I tried it with nucs (I've never tried it with a real hive).

    When you wrap a hive with felt paper, plastic, insulation or anything or when you close all of the entrances down to the bare minimum, you have to take condensation and moisture into consideration.

    I has taken me several winters of trying different setups, to get to where I am.
    On another thread and in the past, I have mentioned that when I first wrapped hives and set them up in Catskill, a few hundred feet from the Hudson River, I lost (3) of (6) hives the first year to moisture. The following year, I did not wrap and lost (2) of (6) hives here, (1) cold starved and (1) to Moisture.
    Then the next year I added paper, granular sugar, SBB and left them open for the winter for the winter.

    I donÂ’t believe that there is a one size fits all cure to wintering bees. Everyone has their own macro and micro climates that they deal with. Every yard I keep bees at is a little different from the others. Round Top at my home is the coldest and windiest, while Catskill is the warmest and wettest. However, you can find a starting point and make your changes and adjustments from there.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Round Top, New York - Northern Catskill Mtns.
    Posts
    1,895

    Post

    >on a cold day stand on the sunny leeward side of a house and then walk around and stand on the shady windward side of the house and I'll tell you the air temperature is exactly the same on both sides.

    This is exactly the argument for wrapping a hive. The felt paper wrap blocks wind penetration into the hive, while it increases the solar gain of the hive. Both hives are at the same ambient air temperatures, but the wrapped hive will be warmer.

    As for condensate dripping back on to the cluster requiring it to expend extra energy, this is one reason why I place the paper and granular sugar in the hive. The warm moist air moves to the outside edges of the hive and not directly up from the cluster to the top of the hive. Some of the water vapor is absorbed by the paper and sugar and any condensate that drips from the inner cover falls on the sugar / paper.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Post

    Joel, read this web page,

    http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/th...lletin1429.htm


    The most interesting peice of information I have seen in a long while. Exactly what I was looking for at the time.


    I keep hearing the arguement, that the cluster doesent heat the inside of the hive, and frankly cant understand where it is comming from.

    >>I live in house which I heat, some heat escapes outside, am I heating the outside, no.

    Yes you are. The house is loosing heat. And if you had an insulating shell surrounding your house, the ambient air b/w the house and the insulated shel would be warmer than outside. Its thermal dynamics.

    A wrapped beehive behaves in the same fassion. But as colder it gets, the tighter the cluster, and the less heat escapes the cluster. At lower temps, it takes more heat to maintain even a smaller volume of cluster.

    But there is heat escape, and the ambient temp stays warmer longer as the outside air drops in the wrapped colonies than the unwrapped colonies. This allows the wrapped hives to maintain a larger cluster, with a smaller insulating crust.

    Now you will tell me that the temperature of the hives outside the clusters are basically the same during the cold long durations, but I will still tell you that the wrapped hives are maintaining a warmer hive temperature. Must realize, that if there is a larger cluster being maintained in a certain volume hive, it mean that the energy the insulation is saving is translating to a larger cluster. The larger the heated volume in the hive, the warmer the overall temp of the hive.

    Now when it warms, everyone tells me that it takes longer to bring the ambient temp inside the insulated hive up, with the so called lag time. But if this were true, why does the wrapped hives respond instantly to warming temps, expanding their cluster sizes accordingly. Where as uninsulated hives will hold their tight cluster until a long durated warming trend.
    You cant scale the hives acticity using the hives ambient temp. The insulation hives warm directly due to the decrease in heat loss by the insulation. And they use that saved energy to heat more of the hive with a larger cluster.
    Where as the uninsulated hives cant break thier thight cluster as effieciently, as quickly, by not having the saved energy from insulation, therefore missing out on short mild spirts.

    Its all thermal dynamic. It is just you have to figure out how the bees are managing and maintaining the heat loss within the cluster.

    [size="1"][ December 06, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Ian ][/size]
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,360

    Post

    {I keep hearing the arguement, that the cluster doesent heat the inside of the hive, and frankly cant understand where it is comming from}

    It's coming from the dynamics of how bees survive the winter, it is a fact. You are arguing a point I'm not trying to make, I agree with the premise heat escapes from a cluster and the internal temperature of a well insulated hive will help hold that heat and use less energy. The fact is the bees intention (my point) is there cluster design is to heat a cluster not the cavity. They could not heat a hive in cold weather and survive. Bees cluster at around 60 degrees. The cluster size expands or contracts in direct proportion to the number of bees and ambient temperatures. The bees on the outside layers of the cluster are not flexing their wing muscles to create heat, they are insulation containing (most of) the heat within the cluster. If Brood is present in the cluster that area the will be heated to about 95 F. When no brood are present temperatures may drop (within the cluster)to around 70 degrees. The ambient temperature within the hive body/bodies will not change dramatically. There is a dramatic difference between the center of a brood cluster (95F) and the ambient temperature around the cluster which will be close to outside air temperature, Why you may ask? The bees purpose is to heat the cluster, not the cavity. If you still don't get the concept of what I'm saying I'll see if I can find the recent ABJ. article where they used Thermal Imaging to photograph the Thermal Dynamic you speak of. It clearly shows the bees are not making an effort to heat the hive but in fact are making every effort to maintain the heat within the cluster. I don't have to figure out the thermal dynamics, it's been published several times in research articles.

    Now I insist on and end of this debate before I get really confused!

    [size="1"][ December 06, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,360

    Post

    {Hmm, I just got on the fence. I used to be on the other side.}

    As I read this again I realized I didn't know which way you were headed over the fence?

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Post

    >>well insulated hive will help hold that heat and use less energy.

    No, thats not the point. They will use the same energy, but are able to maintain a larger cluster with that saved energy from the insulation provided. And in comparing it to uninsulated hives, insualted hives will have a overall warmer hive volume.

    [size="1"][ December 06, 2005, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Ian ][/size]
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,360

    Post

    And suddenenly your point becomes crystal clear! But now I am confused, if that's your thinking why would you not advocate insulating?

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,485

    Post

    Boy, you must be confused, :confused:

    Perhaps your better off reading your magazines,.. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    [size="1"][ December 06, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Ian ][/size]
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads