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  1. #61
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    >in can bee moderated by a MODERATOR and has some built in protection ( words you cant use)

    WHAT? Could I have been WRONG! ED! I had no idea it was monitored, really. It's been quite a while since I'd been there, mainly because I have to disable my security settings to use it, and I don't like to do that.

    And I swear that I saw swearing there, not that I would do such a thing...

    >Nothing you've posted here would likely be cause of any concerns.

    The yellow flag is up for personal attacks, I've been around long enough to know. You don't Dis 'Himself" without drawing someones ire. Albeit humorus as it is.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  2. #62
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    >If they're so happy, why don't they sing?

    Because they don't know the words!
    That's why they humm.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  3. #63

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    Ruth - silly? the world is flat? What planet are you from? Your responses to all of the posts so far have shown you to be so far removed from anything scientific that you should not even use the word. For whatever reason, you do not want to answer even basic questions such as 'Why do bees dance?'. I 100% agree with George's reply to your 'scientifically closed case' comment - it is very clear that this issue is your religion and any attempt to engage you in a scientific discussion is pointless.

  4. #64
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    "I believe I have discussed the honeybee DL controversy more than enough in this forum"

    That's just it Ruth - you have discussed nothing, simply stated your personal opinion, mentioned your opinion of some obscure documents by v. Frisch (which the majority of people ahve limited access to - by your own admission), suggested that this subject was really beyond there level of the readership here and run off.

    FWIW, the readership here spans from layperson to well educated scientist. And neither has cornered the market on good ideas.

    "Scientifically closed case". That's one of the sorriest things I have seen posted on this board. If the case was closed why would you need to flit about the internet combatting the DL theory?

    Keith

    “People are zealous for a cause when they are not quite positive that it is true” - Bertrand Russell

    [size="1"][ January 28, 2006, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: kgbenson ][/size]
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  5. #65
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    To RJ,

    There is no point in trying to engage in any scientific discussion with you, because this requires being able to think straight. All I said about the "flat" earth is, that there is no need to investigate any further whether honeybee-recruits use spatial information contained in foragers'-dances, anymore than there is need to investigate further whether the earth is flat. Both problems had been fully adequately solved long ago, with the answer in the negative! And both cases are, therefore, closed!

  6. #66
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    To kgbenson,

    You obviously never genuinely attempted to stop being "mean-spirited".

    have never been one of Russel's zealots, preaching a cause they are not sure about. Instead, I am a responsible scientist, trying to correct grave errors that I am perfectly sure about.

    I need to do it over & over again, because staunch DL supporters, the "scientific establishment", and the general public, have been brain-washed to believe that honeybees have a DL, to the point where they cannot even conceive of the possibility that such a DL never existed, to the point where the refuse to "see" what you show them. Their responses range from the irrelevant, to the utterly amusing. They are, in fact, akin to some astronomers of Galileo's time, who refused to even look to see "sun-spots", because they "knew" that "the sun was perfect, and could have no blemishes on it." So, I simply have to try to do better!

    I was not "flitting" across the Internet, but simply searching for an appropriate list that is maintained by scholars, intended for those interested in the behavioral sciences, and open to discussions of issues in animal behavior. I have very recently finally found just that kind of list.

    I never sent members of the BeeSource chatroom to consult any obscure publications by anyone. And I've had enough of your offensive comments!

  7. #67
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    To Joel,

    The impact the issue would have on the beekeeping industry is to re-direct honeybee-researchers to attempts to send honeybees to desired crops by use of odor alone, using a "technique" which v. Frisch had already investigated many years ago. He has a very brief chapter about it in his massive 1967 book on the DL, because by then he erroneously concluded (based on his groundless DL hypothesis), that the "technique was useful only for food near the hive.

    Other than that, can you tell me how to UNSUBSCRIBE off the BeeSource chatroom list? I sent 2 queries to the "Contact us", but they never responded.

  8. #68
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    To RJ,

    P.S.

    I directed you to a specific page in ABJ, for an answer to your question "Why honeybees dance". I also warned you that the answer is not quite so simple. But I can't help that.

  9. #69
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    >can you tell me how to UNSUBSCRIBE off the BeeSource chatroom list?

    Well that's easy Ruth. Just go away [img]smile.gif[/img] But don't go yet! I feel there is much unanswered about this topic! When everyone is through slinging mud, perhaps some real discussion can take place. If the DL controversy is a "closed case" does that mean it's not worthy of discussion? I hope not! Your presence here indicates that as strongly as you feel that it is in fact, a closed case, that it still requires discussion. Otherwise, why are you here?

    All we want are some facts, a summary of the evidence, an explanation of the experiemental procedures undertaken on this matter so we can understand the situation. You have so far been unwilling to provide any facts, evidence, or summary of procedures to support your argument other than citing some obscure research papers and telling us we're all nuts for not agreeing with you. We may be nuts, but we're intelligent, thinking nuts. Show us your nuts!

    I for one still have unanswered questions. Bullseye Bill's answer to my question that bees dance because they're happy and don't sing but hum because they don't know the words leaves me... wondering- about his sanity for one, but also, what is the REAL reason bees dance? Do they learn it? Is it instinctual? If you raise brood in an incubator and shake the bees down onto foundation in an isolated yard without contact with adult bees from other hives, they'll form a perfectly functional colony.. but will they dance? Has any experiment like this been done?
    Dulcius ex asperis

  10. #70
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    Ruth
    Being that you started this thread, you may have selected the "Email Notification: emails sent to you whenever someone replies." option.
    So that is why you are receiving emails.
    (I am not sure but you may be able to go back and edit that post. Try to edit your original post. Look at the very bottom of the page for 3 options.
    Options
    1)Email Notification: emails sent to you whenever someone replies.
    2)Show Signature: include your profile signature.
    3)Disable Graemlins in this post.

    IF 1 IS TURNED ON, TRY TURNING IT OFF.

    )

    Probable the best thing would be to notify the moderator and have the thread closed or deleted.

    [size="1"][ January 29, 2006, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: The Honey House ][/size]

  11. #71
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    To George Fergusson,

    You are not intelligent nuts, but pests!

    For a summary of v. Frisch's honeybee-research(up to 1937), including his first study on honeybee-recruitment, go to: Bee World, vol. 74(2): 90-98 (1993).

    For an explanation of the dance go to ABJ vol. 140(2) : 98 (2000).

    You have no access to these journals? Ask Barry!

  12. #72
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    To Honeyhouse,

    I guess I just registered, but never subscribed. So I do not need to unsubscribe.

  13. #73
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    George, you unintelligent pest!

    You really and trully tried the best you could. I am sorry that you got the same slam dunk everybody else gets

    Perhaps we can have another discussion on why this discussion didn't go anywhere.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  14. #74
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    >you may have selected the "Email Notification"

    Hey good point Honey House, I hadn't thought of that.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  15. #75
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    >Perhaps we can have another discussion on why this discussion didn't go anywhere.

    IT'S A SCIENTIFICALLY CLOSED CASE!

    Sigh. I tried. I really did. I guess I are an unintelligent pest, desperately seeking fumigation.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  16. #76
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    >I guess I are an unintelligent pest,

    Indeed. And how dare you to ask someone for their reasoning behind their stated stance? I for one am quite willing to share mine

    >Bullseye Bill's answer to my question that bees dance because they're happy and don't sing but hum because they don't know the words leaves me... wondering-

    Although the statement was made in jest, the more I think about it the more I am convenced that it is a basic truism. After many years of study, out standing in my field, or yard as it may be, I know for an absolute fact, based on my own scientifically closed thinking, that when my bees are humming contently, they are HAPPY!

    Ergo, since bees are their happiest when they are busily out collecting the ingredients of life, they must share their happiness somehow. So think, Peanuts. Think, Snoopy. Think, Dance. I feel good, I feel so good I gotta dance! (This is the bee talking now) I gotta tell all my friends what makes me feel so good! I'm gonna turn all my friends onto what is soo good! Follow me to the good stuff, guys!

    Can there be any doubt about what makes bees dance?
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  17. #77
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    >And how dare you to ask someone for their reasoning behind their stated stance?

    I'm sorry already! I don't know what I was thinking!

    >the more I think about it the more I am convenced that it is a basic truism.

    You could be on to something. Clearly, a queenless hive hums a depressed and dismal tune. A happy queenright hive hums a very different one.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  18. #78
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    At the risk of my better judgement, I'd like to jump back with a comment and a few questions.

    First, just to clarify the Nobel Prize issue, von Frisch, Tinbergen and Lorenz shared a Nobel Prize for their development of ethology. Von Frisch did NOT get the prize for his dance-language hypothesis, but rather for his general contributions to ethology. Saying, "Von Frisch received a Nobel Prize for his DL hypothesis," is about like saying, "President Carter received the Nobel Prize for building Habitat for Humanity houses."

    I'll admit that the Nobel Prize adds weight to von Frisch's ideas, whether those ideas might be right or wrong, but the prize wasn't given simply because he suggested a language in honey bees.

    Now, am I understanding correctly? Detractors or opponents of the DL hypothesis are claiming bees use no form of communication other than odors? Never, ever, do bees use any form of communication associated with the "dancing" behavior, including visual or audible cues?

    Just out of curiosity, couldn't the "dances" of honey bees provide more efficient methods of transferring olfactory cues (i. e. "odors") from scouts to other foragers?

    How do scouts communicate to other bees in swarms when swarms are searching for new hive locations? How do the scouts, in essence, say, "I found an ideal hive site over at such-and-such a location?"

    And, has the experiment (I think suggested by George; I apologize if I'm giving credit to the wrong person) involving bees raised in incubators so they never have exposure to dances from experienced bees ever been attempted? I'd be curious if those bees also "dance."

  19. #79
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    To Kieck,

    1. V. Frisch was awarded the Nobel Prize specifically for "The discovery and deciphering of the honeybee DL".Of course, no one is awarded the Nobel Prize for a hypothesis, but the Nobel Committee became erroneously convinced that v. Frisch's DL hypothesis, had been properly experimentally confirmed. My phrasing was inaccurate, but it is very difficult to apply accurate phrasing here. I could, of course, state that he was actually awarded the Prize for his STILLBORN DL hypothesis; which is quite accurate, but certainly not what the Nobel Committee said.

    2. DL opponents never claimed that honeybees do not use other means of "communication". For instance, dance-attendants certainly use sound when "begging" food from the dancer. As for the dance, it has been suggested that the wing-vibrations which accompany the waggle-run help spread the odors the forager carries, and, thus, attract potential dance-attendants from a somewhat greater distance; and that the mere sound which accompanies the waggle-run may attract potential dance-attendants. There is, however, no clear evidence for any of that. And round dances without any waggles, i.e., without any wing-vibrations, or sound, seem to be just as effective.

    3. Nest-scouts are known to dance in the swarm. However, in spite of all the evidence I provided, you seem unable to get it into your head once and for all, that dance-attendants never use any spatial information contained in dances. You still ask how nest-scouts inform swarm-mates where they found a prospective nest. Swarm-mates recruited by dancing nest-scouts use odor alone all along, just like bees recruited by dancing foragers, to food, and various other resource. Recruits never know where the resource is located, nor what it looks like!

    In nature, prospective nest-sites are never odorless. In fact, they often carry the odors of "wounded" wood, as honeybees usually nest in a cavity in the trunk of a tree caused by a lightning-strike. In fact, I have no doubts that the scouts themselves find prospective nest-sites, by being attracted to the odors of such cavities. If they were to simply inspect just any little hole, they would hardly have a chance of discovering any of the few holes that lead to a cavity that is suitable for a nest, among the myriad of tiny holes that usually exist in their natural environment.

    4.V. Frisch himself raised young bees in the absence of older bees that already "know" how to dance. In some cases those young bees eventually began to forage on their own, and performed perfect dances the first time they danced. In fact, it was this finding which led him to conclude that dancing behavior was "instinctive", i.e. genetically predetermined; which is an utterly unwarranted conclusion. You will understand why the conclusion is unwarranted, if you read and understand my highly plausible explanation of the dance.

  20. #80
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    Hi,

    This might interest at least some of you:

    EXPLAINING HONEYBEE DANCES (retyped from my publication in ABJ, 140(4) :98 (2000)

    DOES THE EXISTENCE OF HONEYBEE DANCES REQUIRE THE EXISTENCE OF A HONEYBEE "DANCE LANGUAGE"?

    In a recent letter in ABJ Walls (1999) complains that "dance language" opponents dismiss honey bee dances as "anomalies", or "aberrations". Like many others he raises what is known as the teleological-evolutionary argument: Honey bee dances could not exist unless they were useful to honey bees. They cannot be useful except in a "dance language". Therefore the "dance language" must exist. He pleads for an alternative explanation of honey bee dances, in laymen's terms. I shall try to oblige him as best I can.

    The seemingly very complex dances are a combination of many different, but basically simple component-responses, that all occur also outside the dance, and separately from one another, and most of them occur also in other insects that do not dance, or even in insects that are solitary. Whatever each component response may be useful for obviously has nothing to do with any "dance language". The fact that they all occur in the dance, therefore, cannot preclude the possibility that their combination still has no use in any "dance language".

    Let us briefly consider a simple case where the dancer is a nectar-collector, and the dance takes place in open sunlight on the horizontal landing platform of the hive. We shall soon see that the terms "dancer" and "dance attendants" are misleading.

    I shall, therefore, use them in quotes. The "dance" includes a chase by "dance attendants" after the "dancer" for a reward of food, which is very useful for "dance attendants". It includes an attempt by the "dancer" to escape from those who chase it, which is very useful to the "dancer" when it has very little food left for itself, after having distributed most of the food it had to "house bees". Both of these responses, which are learned, account for the expenditure of time and energy on the part of both "dancer" and "dance attendants".

    The "dance" involves a tendency on the part of the "dancer" to orient itself in such a direction that the effect of sunlight would balance the after-effects of sunlight that resulted from the forager's flight. By the time the forager "dances" the after-effects of sunlight on its eyes, due to the flight to the food, and whatever random direction it maintained towards the sun while it was feeding, normally disappear, The only after-effects of this kind that still persist are due to the return flight home. To balance these after-effects the "dancer" must turn into the direction that is the reverse of the direction from the food to the hive. "If the "dance" points towards the food, this is only because normally the reverse of the direction from the food to the hive happens to coincide with the direction from the hive to the food. (It is possible to create situations that differ from this norm in experiments.)

    As the "dancer turns into the balancing-direction "dance attendants" continue to move ahead due to their inertia, and thus get on the other side of the "dancer". This accounts for "dance attendants" changing sides in relation to the "dancer" during the straight part of the "dance". The turning of the "dancer" into the balancing-direction is followed by "turn-alternation", (This is a response well-known in insects, and various other animals, who after being forced to turn into one direction, follow this with a turn in the opposite direction.) This accounts for the "dancer" turning out of the straight portion of the dance in the opposite direction to the direction in which it turned when it entered the straight portion f the dance. This is followed by the tendency of the "dancer" to turn towards the direction of the side of its body that receives most tactile stimuli. In this case it is "dance attendants" who have changed sides in relation to the "dancer", that provide the tactile stimuli. The "dancer's" response accounts for the round portion of the "dance". This is followed by another turn into the balancing-direction, and so on.
    When the dances take place on the vertical comb inside the hive, they also involve a transformation of direction in relation to light to direction in relation to gravity. This transformation is not only known in other insects, but it was first discovered in a species of beetles, as v. Frisch (1967) pointed out. Moreover, this is a species of solitary insects. It is, therefore, obvious that this transformation has nothing to do with the transmission of any information to anyone.

    I have explained here only the most basic aspects of honey bee dances in the simplest terms I could, and in a way that has nothing to do with any "dance language". But this will do here. The explanation may not be simple at all, in terms of the number of different responses involved. But then, Walls, asked for it.

    Otherwise I could have discredited the teleological-evolutionary argument, in a different, much shorter way.

    I could point out that even though v. Frisch himself relied heavily on this argument in his criticism of "dance language" opponents, he had already himself inadvertently discredited this argument. He did so when he concluded (Frisch 1967) that honeybees cannot, and never could obtain the distance information contained in the number of waggles per waggle-run; this even though the production of these waggles requires energy. That much for the teleological-evolutionary argument.

    References

    Frisch, K.von. (1967). The Dance Language and Orientation of Bees. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA.

    Walls, R. (1999). American Bee J. 139 (11) 820.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Additional note: At the time I did not have a good explanation for "sickle dances", where alternate waggle-runs point in different directions, with a very large, to very small, angle between these two directions. I found the explanation several years ago. It is yet unpublished. I may eventually "publish" it on the COMPARATIVE PSYCHOLOGY list of TCU (Texas Christian University).

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