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  1. #41
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    Hi Dick,

    In those days we were still using the local, vicious Mid-Eastern bees (which is were I come from). And once, when we were harvesting the honey, I got more than a hundred bee-stings in one day, in spite of wearing fully protective gear. Didn't cause me any harm, but I guess I passed the test!

    Having hands-on experience in beekeeping was helpful, but only in a very limited sense.

    The truth of the matter is, that scientists must very often learn from work done by others, and be able to evaluate such work, even if it deals with animals they have never seen.

  2. #42

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    Ruth,

    In your previous post you said "In my book in order to do good science, you need to AVOID, experimenting on your own in order to solve a long-solved problem.." What do you mean by this? It reads as though you are saying that you consider experimenting on your own as bad science (this is your argument for not doing your own research - a weak one at best). If so, then it follows that people that do their own research on long-lasting questions (like communication systems in bees) are doing bad science - well guess what, Wenner also did his own research on the matter and by your definintion of good science he must have been doing bad science (in case you cannot see my point, I am saing that your rationale for not doing your own research is ridiculous not that you think Wenner does 'bad science'). The short of it is that I have read most of your lengthy posts and I am very familiar with the literature on bee behavior(including communication). All I want is for you to present your view in a more scientific framework (In other words ADDRESS MY THREE POINTS). Your refusal to do so indicates that the reason for your posts is not to engage in an academic discussion on communication in honeybees. I am not sure what your agenda is, but it has no place in any forum related to ACADEMIC discussions of animal behaviour - philosophy or religion discussion groups may be a better option for you.

  3. #43
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    I'm puzzled as to whether the controversy lies in whether or not a dance language exists in honey bees, or if the controversy lies in von Frisch's hypothesis specifically? If it's in von Frisch's hypothesis, what changes should be made to remedy the faults?

    I keep reading posts about people who summarily reject a dance language in bees because they've found evidence of searching by odor. I've read Wenner's POV; to me, it seems as though he wants to replace a dance language with a language based on sound. If that's actually the way a "language" in bees works, "dancing" may simply be the necessary physical movements to produce the sounds used in the language. Think of our vocal language -- our lips (and, when a lot of people talk, our hands) move when we produce sounds. Is the movement of lips the language, or is the language contained in the sound waves?

    In reading through these posts, I kept thinking, "Why do bees only have to have ONE way to locate flowers?" Then I read Jim F's post; his paragraphs fit nicely with the conflict I saw between the two sides:

    "I think it is interesting that "Dance" is never
    presented as being mutually exclusive with at
    least some use of odor, the most common assumption
    being that odor (including things like "footprint
    pheromone") certainly would be used at close
    range to help a forager select individual blossoms
    of interest. "Flower fidelity", a well-known
    aspect for forager behavior implies that bees can
    and do use cues like visual appearance and odor
    to be consistent in the type of plants upon which
    they forage.

    But "odor" supporters don't want to even consider,
    let alone concede, that "odor" might coexist with
    dance, each being a mere part of the holistic
    process." -Jim Fischer

    I think of the way humans locate things. For example, let's say that someone was looking for a gas station in a city. He could simply look for a station, either directly or by searching the horizon for one of those tall signs that gas stations generally seem to feel are necessary. He could also get directions from another person, either by asking for directions or looking at some printed directions. We use different methods of locating resources; why couldn't bees use both some form of language and odor searching?

    Along a slightly different line, there's no genetic component to the dances of honey bees? Why is it that all species within the genus Apis seem to use some form of dance in their colonies? Doesn't that suggest some genetic component?

  4. #44
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    To RJ,

    When I stated that I need to avoid carrying my own experiments to solve a problem already fully adequately solved long ago, I referred specifically to the problem whether honeybee-recruits do, or do not use spatial information contained in foragers dances. Had you carefully read my posts, you would have realized that the problem had already been fully adequately solved by v. Frisch himself, when he justifiably concluded (in 1923), on the basis of his first study on honeybee-recruitment, that the answer is NO! You would also have understood that Wenner, and other DL opponents could not have known that, because after the inception of his DL hypothesis, v. Frisch excluded mention of the results he obtained in his first study on honeybee-recruitment (which grossly contradicted his DL hypothesis), and substituted, instead, the results of two new tests (like that first study), with round dances, but with a drastically different experimental design. This time the results fully fit the expectations from his DL hypothesis. (The results of those two new tests, actually done in 1962, can be found in his definitive, 1967 book on the honeybee DL, translated from the original 1965 German edition.)

    Since v. Frisch repeatedly claimed to have experimentally confirmed his DL hypothesis, DL opponents naturally examined only his evidence for these claims, and did not bother to check his pre-DL publications, where we knew that such evidence could not be found.

    This why Wenner had to unknowingly rediscover on his own, and publish in 1967, what v. Frisch had already discovered and published in 1923.

    Little did we know what we could find in v. Frisch's pre-DL publications, until I accidentally stumbled on a short publication by v. Frisch in the 1939 Annual Report of the Smithsonian Institution in the US. That publication was a reprint of a 1937 British publication by v. Frisch, based on a guest-lecture he had delivered at the University college of London in 1937, where he summarized ALL his earlier research on honeybees, including his first study on honeybee-recruitment, and his fully justified conclusion from that study.

    Wenner did very good work, but he had to rediscover on his own what v. Frisch had already discovered and published more than 40 years earlier, because Wenner could not have known about a publication which v. Frisch later chose to hide.

    I know that the problem had already been fully adequately solved by v. Frisch in 1923. It was again, fully adequately solved again, in 1967, by Wenner, who could not have know that v. Frisch had already solved it. Nonetheless, you dare demand that I carry out my own experiments, in order to try and solve this already fully adequately, twice solved problem, yet a third time; or turn to lists that deal with religion!

    [edit by mod] Perhaps you should carry out your own experiments to again solve the problem whether the earth is, or is not flat?!
    Last edited by Admin; 12-06-2008 at 09:43 AM. Reason: personal attack

  5. #45
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    To Kieck,

    Honeybee-recruits do not use spatial information contained in foragers'-dances. Period!

    If you still do not understand that, see my response to RJ, above.

    All your comments on this issue are irrelevant.

    I do not pay any attention to what Jim believes he thinks, [edit by admin]

    [size="1"][ February 07, 2006, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Admin ][/size]

  6. #46
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    To Kieck,

    P.S.

    I forgot to respond to one comment of yours. No one ever said that "there's no genetic component to the dances of honeybees". All I said was that dancing behavior was not genetically predetermined.

    All individual traits (including behavioral traits) of all living organisms, develop in the individual organism under inseparable (!) effects of both (!)genes and environment.

    This is fundamentally different from claiming that any individual trait is genetically PREDETERMINED. Just consider that the life of any one-celled fertilized egg, can be snuffed at that very stage, and you will realize that it is not genetically predetermined that the egg will develop into anything beyond that stage.

  7. #47
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    "Nonetheless, you dare demand"

    "All your comments on this issue are irrelevant"

    "I do not pay any attention to what Jim believes he thinks, [edit by admin]"

    Ruth, it's the warm fuzzy way you write to others that have people flocking in droves to read the details of your arguments.

    LOL

    Keith

    [size="1"][ February 07, 2006, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Admin ][/size]
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  8. #48
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    Ruth, I've read, and re-read your response to my question "Why do bees dance?" but I can't tell for sure from what you said if you answered my question or not. I don't think you did. I believe you said you came up with "a highly plausible solution" to the "problem" in an attempt to discredit the Teleological-Evolutionary argument that DL was "instinctive" but then you referred me to an ABJ article which I do not have access to. For that matter, I'm not sure I'm really interested in the "details" of a plausible argument that discredits a theory attempting to prove something I don't understand in the first place. I guess I don't care if bee dancing is instinct or not.

    So, I'm left with the unanswered question, why do bees dance? It's a simple question, really. I'd like to think it could be answered in simple terms that even I can understand. If you don't know why bees dance, then just say so. I'm ok with that, though I think it's strange that you could feel so strongly about what the DL is NOT and not have at least an opinion of what the DL IS.

    I'm perfectly willing to accept, at least for the sake of argument, your assertion that honey bee recruits don't use spatial information contained in forager's dances. Now, please, if you can, answer my question: Why do bees dance? For what purpose? To what end?
    Dulcius ex asperis

  9. #49
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    >I do not pay any attention to what Jim believes he thinks, [edit by admin]!

    Ruth, you are being naughty! Whether your statement is true or not, those are the kind of things that will get you tossed off this board, then you won't get a chance to storm out saying you won't be back.

    Barry will not allow personal attacks.

    [size="1"][ February 07, 2006, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Admin ][/size]
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  10. #50
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    >Why do bees dance? For what purpose? To what end?

    Because their HAPPY!

    Don't you want to dance when your happy?

    That's how I feel when I find a surplus of honey, I want to SHARE! I want to tell the world! I want to kick my heals up and DANCE!

    YEOW! I FEEL GOOD!

    Share some honey with your honey!
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  11. #51
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    To George Fergusson,

    You are willing to accept that honeybee-recruits do not use spatial information contained in foragers'-dances, just for the FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT? How about accepting it FOR THE SAKE OF THE EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE; which is what scientists are obliged to do? If you did just that, you would understand that the the honeybee DL controversy, which is a controversy over whether honeybee-recruits do, or do not use that spatial information is a SCIENTIFICALLY CLOSED CASE!

    I did not explain what makes honeybees dance. I advised you, and anyone else who is interested, to read one page in ABJ. If you do not get the journal, try to obtain a copy of that one page from someone who has access to the journal. Some members of this list undoubtedly subscribe to the journal. Try Barry.

    You stood forewarned, however, that The answer to this question is not quite so simple. It requires a scientific background to understand. Sorry, but scientific explanations are not just "a cup o' tea" that you can order to be prepared and served exactly to suit your personal liking.

    I could, of course, explain the science involved, starting from ABC; which would require a very long, detailed explanation. Sad as it may be, I have never aspired to become a popularizer of science, for which I have neither the talent, nor the patience.

  12. #52
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    To Keith,

    Sorry! But I have never been able to suffer fools gladly.

  13. #53
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    To Bullseye,

    Whast's Barry got to do with the BeeSource chatroom? Does he police it?

    Other than that, I see you are in the mood for merriment; which is very nice!

    However, to strike a more serious note, honeybees are not human, and they do not even dance. Scientists only dubbed a certain behavior of honeybees: "dancing", for lack of a better word, and because the behavior reminds humans of human dancing.

    If honeybees were human, they would probably "go on a strike", and demand "minimum wages"!

  14. #54
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    Lightbulb

    >Whast's Barry got to do with the BeeSource chatroom? Does he police it?

    OK, you are a bit confused. Let me try to enlighten you a bit about where we are.

    Here we have a web site called *Beesource.com*, within is a *Bulletin Board* called the *Exchange*, with subdivisions called *Forums*, that has subjects called *Threads* where we make *Posts* in which we carry on conversations.

    This Forum is for people that want to post information about the Chatroom that is a totally different site where live time conversations are carried on when people are logged in, usually in the evenings. It is not monitored and not censored, you may say ANYTHING you want there with no reprocussions, but I will warn you that it is filled with many little messages, anacronims, and graemlins. Mostly small talk and no meaningful conversations, unless you invite someone into a private room for some private fun... (yes, you can go there...)

    The chatroom site is here:

    http://www.bee-l.com/beesourcechat.htm

    (Sorry folks )

    You will have to register with your own name and password to log in.

    Normally a Thread like this one that you started would have been posted in either the main Forum where general topics of discussion should be or in the Tailgater section where more off topic discussion are kept.

    >Whast's Barry got to do with the BeeSource?

    Barry Birkey owns this (Beesource) web site and you agreed to the terms and conditions to use it when you registered as a member.

    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...b=agree_review

    And if you do not live by those rules of conduct you will be banned by the owner, Barry, overlord and prevayor of all that is Beesource.

    Tread lightly and mind your P's and Q's

    Good luck!, and play nice.

    [size="1"][ January 28, 2006, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: BULLSEYE BILL ][/size]
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  15. #55
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    >a SCIENTIFICALLY CLOSED CASE!

    I hope never to hear those words again in any conversation I am engaged in. Hearing those words means it's time for me to get up and leave because I'm not talking to a scientist, I'm talking to a zealot with a vested interest in their beliefs, one who has lost their objectivity to think and see clearly. Science is not a closed book. Everything there is to know has not been written yet and much of what has been written has not or ultimately will not stand the test of time. Just because we believe a theory today doesn't mean it won't be replaced tommorow with a different theory that better fits the facts and evidence.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  16. #56
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    ""This Forum is for people that want to post information about the Chatroom that is a totally different site where live time conversations are carried on when people are logged in, usually in the evenings. It is not monitored and not censored, you may say ANYTHING you want there with no reprocussions, but I will warn you that it is filled with many little messages, anacronims, and graemlins. Mostly small talk and no meaningful conversations, unless you invite someone into a private room for some private fun... (yes, you can go there...)""

    BUT in can bee moderated by a MODERATOR and has some built in protection ( words you cant use) we meet in the evening most of the time, some serious talk and some FRIENDLY jabs and jokes some of us have devloped (long distance) friendships. The "room" has comercial queen breeders,sideline queen breeders, new Beekeepers with a lot of questions that all (most) are glad to answer so if you like GOOD CLEAN FUN and vesiting and exchange of beekeeping ideas come on in if not good luck in the beeyard.
    Ed, KA9CTT profanity is IGNORANCE made audible
    you can`t fix stupid not even with duct tape

  17. #57
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    >Because their HAPPY!

    Well thanks Bill, that at least is a simple answer that my tiny pea brain can understand!

    If they're so happy, why don't they sing? Or do they.... hmm...
    Dulcius ex asperis

  18. #58
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    To Fergusson,

    I already noted that I did not join the list to be taught how to do science. Science in general is, of course, wide open and ever expanding. Contrary to your belief, however, some scientific problems are indeed already closed cases, that need not be investigated any further. The problem whether the earth is, or is not flat, is one such problem. The problem whether honeybee-recruits use spatial information contained in foragers'-dances, is another such problem!

    Sorry, but you have just heard from me exactly the kind of words you were hoping never to hear again.

  19. #59
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    To Bullseye and Honeyman,

    Barry is not going to boot me out, because I know he is all for Wenner, and so am I.

    I believe I have discussed the honeybee DL controversy more than enough in this forum, and I do not really want advice on beekeeping. So, I'm ready to leave again.

  20. #60
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    Erin, NY /Florence SC
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    {Barry is not going to boot me out, because I know he is all for Wenner}

    Ruth, Barry does not exile people from the list because they agree or disagree with him. The list is moderated according to rules we all read when we join ( I assume you didn't). Nothing you've posted here would likely be cause of any concerns. Making active debate over beekeeping issues is what this post is all about to help us all better understand what we are doing and better manage our bees.

    I of course could not read the tiny URL's either. Some of your post have been thought provoking and better stated than in the past. It helps having the brief background information so we can understand your perspective.

    A question I have is once this particular discipline is clear relating to behavior and stimulus how would we apply it to better our efforts? What impact does resolving this issue have on our industry, in your opinion?

    [size="1"][ January 28, 2006, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

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