Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 156
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    141

    Post

    Hi,

    Anyone interested in this issue is urged to (freely) subscribe to the animal behaviour list::

    Send a message to LISTSERV@jiscmail.ac.uk, (with no subject, or signature), and with only: SUBSCRIBE ANIMAL-BEHAVIOUR in the message text.

    After you are subscribed, you can send commands they offer, to the same e-mail address above, but add ANIMAL-BEHAVIOUR after the command.

    Now command to be provided with posts from the Archives (between Dec. 26, 2005 & Jan. 13, 2006), and carefully read 5 long messages of mine on "The Greatest Goof in the History of Science".

    --
    Sincerely,
    Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") Hi,

    Anyone interested in this issue is urged to (freely) subscribe to the animal behaviour list::

    Send a message to LISTSERV@jiscmail.ac.uk, (with no subject, or signature), and with only: SUBSCRIBE ANIMAL-BEHAVIOUR in the message text.

    After you are subscribed, you can send commands they offer, to the same e-mail address above, but add ANIMAL-BEHAVIOUR after the command.

    Now command to be provided with posts from the Archives (between Dec. 26, 2005 & Jan. 13, 2006), and carefully read 5 long messages of mine on "The Greatest Goof in the History of Science".

    --
    Sincerely,
    Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear")

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, N.C.
    Posts
    5,080

    Post

    Welcome back. We missed you.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
    Posts
    6,624

    Post

    Dance language controversy?
    Dulcius ex asperis

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,361

    Post

    Good to hear from you Ruth! Do you really, really believe this is the Greatest Goof in the History of Science or are "We" being a little bit dramatic?

    I'll read them just the same. Just so you know, I'm going to have a cup of Herbal tea whilst I'm reading them.

    Where's Jim F?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

    Post

    >Dance language controversy?

    These should take anyone interested in reading about the dance language controversy directly to Ruth Rosin's posts on dance language without the need to subscribe to a list:

    http://tinyurl.com/aj2eu

    http://tinyurl.com/at3ej

    http://tinyurl.com/97dyd

    http://tinyurl.com/9rfxo

    http://tinyurl.com/95zsf

    http://tinyurl.com/eyyn4

    Additionally, Adrian WennerÂ’s views can be read here:

    http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Columbia, South Carolina USA
    Posts
    2,598

    Post

    Welcome back Ruth. You certainly are . . . er . . . passionate about this.

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    141

    Post

    To Joel:

    No, I am not dramatizing at all!

    Once you carefully read my posts, you might become fully convinced of that, too. In fact, there is much more that is very disturbing about this case, that I have not even mentioned in my latest posts.

    As just one such issue, let me only briefly note here that warning-signs of big trouble with the DL hypothesis were apparent not only in v. Frisch's first study on honeybee-recruitment (which leads to the conclusion that the DL hypothesis was stillborn). Instead, such warning-signs kept continually cropping up, in the form of experimental results obtained by DL supporters themselves, that were anomalous to the DL hypothesis.

    The way DL supporters, starting with v. Frisch, dealt with such anomalies was to introduce ad hoc revisions, i.e. never experimentally confirmed, or even tested, auxiliary hypotheses, that made it possible to fit the anomalies within the revised version of the hypothesis. DL supporters were, however, obliged to introduce so many such auxiliary hypotheses, that they inevitably ended up contradicting one another, and sometimes even themselves (by not carefully investigating all the implications of each newly introduced auxiliary hypothesis).

    The result is that by now no one even knows anymore what the DL hypothesis really stands for, beyond the core-claim that somehow, some where, some honeybees, use distance & direction information contained in foragers'-dances.

    This means that you can not even test the hypothesis, because you do not know what exactly the hypothesis claims. And a hypothesis that can not be tested cannot qualify as a scientific hypothesis. Nonetheless, this kind of a DL hypothesis was judged by the 1973 Nobel Committee, to be a tested, and adequately experimentally confirmed hypothesis, to the point of meriting a Nobel Prize.

    Most people who know of the DL hypothesis, know it only in the highly oversimplified, very elegant, attractive version, in which it is presented in popular publications, including v. Frisch's own (in Scientific American). The DL hypothesis is, instead, only a terribly ugly, useless mess!

  8. #8

    Post

    Instead of ranting and bashing the work or competent researchers why dont you state 1) the key elements of both hypotheses, 2) how they differ from one another and 3) what experimental designs would separate the two. I read your outline of an experiment that was supposed to confirm the odour hypothesis and it was not even close to an objective empirical evaluation of either hypothesis. Furthermore, are you suggesting that Wenner had the perfect design to support your 'odour-driven' hypothesis (i.e. it was a flawless design)? I beg to differ. If you want anyone to listen to your views, then I suggest focussing on hypothesis testing (ie. design a solid experiment and collect YOUR OWN data) rather useless lengthy commentaries.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Oh wow, RJ - you ARE new here, aren't you? [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Please accept this flack vest as a token
    of welcome from the group, and...
    DUCK!

    You will be sternly told that you MUST go read
    several long tracts and slog through a wide
    selection of stuff not published in the journals
    (or only published in obscure journals)
    to understand the scope of the worldwide and
    decades-long conspiracy to keep the truth
    from you.

    While Ruth can offer many criticisms of the dance
    language work done to date, these criticisms do
    not provide constructive support for any specific
    alternative communications mechanism.

    So, a good model for the net position on the
    sole subject about which Ruth obsesses is:

    DANCE - Replace with "evolution"
    ODOR - Replace with "intelligent design"
    BEE TELEPATHY - Replace with "flying spaghetti monster"

    With these subsitutions, the positions, tactics,
    and rhetoric employed are almost identical.
    (While I have tried to develop a "flying spaghetti
    monster" movement by offering telepathy as a 3rd
    option, I have been less than successful, as most
    beekeepers apparently lack a sense of irony.)

    Bottom line, even Adrian Wenner, the most
    persisent critic of "dance" that has ever
    held a hive tool, has said a number of times
    in public that he now considers further research
    in this area a waste of time and money better-spent
    on more practical issues, Ruth will solider on,
    and fight "the good fight".

    I'll ask again, as I always ask:

    I want to hear about Ruth's bees!
    She never even mentions even having any hives.
    I would think she would have some interesting
    personal observations of her own bees that
    would be much more revealing than talking about
    nothing but other people's work.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
    Posts
    6,624

    Post

    >These should take anyone interested

    Dick, all your tiny urls (at least the first 3, I didn't try the others) take me to a JISCmail login page. I would love to read some of Ruth's views on the dance language controversy. I didn't even know there was a dance language controversy...

    Jim, I've got my own flak jacket thanks, and iron undies. I'm ready.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,361

    Post

    {BEE TELEPATHY - Replace with "flying spaghetti monster"}

    Now that's funny, I don't care which side of the dance controversy you're on.

    RJ-Very well stated, and your 1st. post-welcome. Oh, Jim's right, DUCK!

    Ruth, I don't know what you do for a living. You really should apply to Cornell, NYC etc. to get a grant and do some direct research on bees. I could see hives at Brooklyn Gardens that would add to their effort in many ways, be a good public display and give you the opportunity to further test you theroies. You certainly have the stick to it tive ness. Of course you need to be objective.

    You'll never convince beekeepers of anything unless you've kept bees, there is something there beyond the sum of the parts, it's kind of alchemy.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    > You'll never convince beekeepers of anything
    > unless you've kept bees

    You're kidding - Ruth has NEVER kept bees herself?
    Not even an observation hive?
    But how could she claim to be a "researcher" without any bees?
    How could she presume to even discuss bees at
    such a detailed level?

    I'm confused.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Thornton Colorado
    Posts
    2,003

    Post

    <Jim Fischer>
    I'm confused.

    I think I've heard others make this argument for you! [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

    <Jim Fischer>
    ... now considers further research
    in this area a waste of time and money ...

    I think this is so short-sighted it's insane. Once we figure out exactly the bee dance mode of communications it will be much easier for us to have little robot bees that dance and send our minion bees (preferably AHBs) off to do their dasturdly deeds and take over the world.
    [WAHAHAHAAA!]
    It seems to me to be preferential to training them because just as soon as one class is taught it dies.

    [img]smile.gif[/img]

    "... same thing we do every night Pinky..."
    JohnF INTP

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

    Post

    George, I doubted many would trouble themselves to subscribe to that list, so I offered to make some tinyURL's for Ruth so her remarks could be read without having to subscribe to another Listserv list. They work fine here, but I did subscribe to the list. You may need to subscribe to the list???

    If you truly have an interest in why some doubt the "dance language" the last URL should take you to Adrian Wenner's writings in the BeeSource POV section. His book "Anatomoy of a Controversy" is another good source. Norm Gary writes about the long-standing debate that seems to have such a polarizing effect on some in the current edition of 'The Hive and the Honey Bee' (pages 293-296).

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
    Posts
    6,624

    Post

    >If you truly have an interest in why some doubt the "dance language"....

    Dick- I've read the section in "The Hive and the Honey Bee" and am vaguely familiar with Adrian's opinions from things he's said on BEE-L. I know what the dance language is as much as the next semi-informed beekeeper which is to say, I know of it, but not much about it. I knew there was a controversy, I figured I'd get around to looking into it more when an opportunity presented itself. This may be that opportunity...

    I don't think I want to subscribe to yet another listserv at this time. Perhaps I'll start with Adrian's work.

    Thanks
    Dulcius ex asperis

  16. #16

    Post

    Jim,

    Very well put and thanks for the jacket - although I doubt that her shots will ever hit the mark. Unfortunately, I had read a few of her posts before I was so irritated that I had to respond (I could not take anymore after reading her 'proposed experiment'). Like you (and prob. many others), I had the feeling that I was reading the rants of someone with an 'intelligent design' mentality. I doubt that taking a course on the scientific method will help her at this point.....

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Columbia, South Carolina USA
    Posts
    2,598

    Post

    While I do not necessarily agree with Ruth, I don't think her arguments and "evidence" is her problem.

    How is it often put? "It's not what you say, it is how you say it that counts".

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Well, why can't I get anyone to even taste
    (let alone drink) the Kool-Aid on "bee telepathy"?

    I started promoting "bee telepathy" long before
    anyone suggested the "flying spaghetti monster"
    theory, and FSM has tee-shirts, websites,
    and a big fan club.

    Well, at least Ruth has pulled a "Dee Lusby",
    and started her own little online group so as
    to avoid any possibility of discussion with
    anyone who might ask pointed questions. That's
    sad, and kinda pathetic, [edit by mod]

    And to think that the unwashed masses were
    encouraged to get onto the internet with the
    intent of implementing the "global village",
    uniting all around larger campfires.

    Sad.
    Last edited by Admin; 12-06-2008 at 08:59 AM. Reason: personal attack

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Columbia, South Carolina USA
    Posts
    2,598

    Post

    "Well, why can't I get anyone to even taste
    (let alone drink) the Kool-Aid on "bee telepathy"? "

    Because Jim, I just dont' think it is practical to outfit that many bees with with the necessary tinfoil hats

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Columbia, South Carolina USA
    Posts
    2,598

    Post

    "Well, at least Ruth has pulled a "Dee Lusby",
    and started her own little online group so as
    to avoid any possibility of discussion with
    anyone who might ask pointed questions."

    She started a group?

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads