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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Wayne, NJ USA
    Posts
    381

    Post

    I'm a first year guy and I have just a couple of hives. So far things have been developing nicely. Both hives have flled out 2 deeps, they have filled 1 honey super ea. and drawn out another (w/some open honey in it).
    As I start to look ahead, I'm a bit confused as to how I want to approach late summer/fall management. (oh, one other piece of background info, I did a mite check (24 hr sticky board) 1st week in July and had mite counts in the mid 20's) Here are the questions spinning around in my head.

    1. When should I be treating for mites in NJ? (both varroa & trachial)
    2. If I pull the honey now to start treatment and the bees don't have any additional room to store honey will they swarm?
    3. If I start treatment now, will I be at increased risk to mite re-infestation this fall?
    4. On the other hand, If I wait till Sept. 1st- will I have an issue the bees not having additional room to store honey? (the fall flow)
    5.If I wait till Sept 1st- will I still have enough warm days for the menthol to be effective?
    6. Do I really need to feed syrup this fall if the hives have fill out the brood chamber?

    It seems to me that getting this right is what is going to make it or break it next spring. Your insight and suggestions are welcomed. cj

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,810

    Post

    >I'm a first year guy and I have just a couple of hives. So far things have been developing nicely. Both hives have flled out 2 deeps, they have filled 1 honey super ea. and drawn out another (w/some open honey in it).

    I'd probably put on another deep and let them fill it and let them go into winter with three deeps. But they will probably winter ok in two. Of course I hate lifting that third deep. (and the second one)

    >1. When should I be treating for mites in NJ? (both varroa & trachial)

    Everyone has their preferences on methods. You have to choose your method(s) before you can say when you can treat.

    >2. If I pull the honey now to start treatment and the bees don't have any additional room to store honey will they swarm?

    Methods you can use right now without pulling honey: FGMO emolsion and fog. Drone comb magnet. (Small cell has effects all the time, but it's a bit late to go to that)

    >3. If I start treatment now, will I be at increased risk to mite re-infestation this fall?

    If you start treament now (with a method that can be done now such as FGMO or drone magnet) you will have less mites going into fall which will be good. If you are talking about Apistan, when it still worked, and I was still using it, I only used it once a year in the fall with good success. Now it is as likely to fail as any other treatment. If you want to use Check Mite, I would NOT use it now and again in the fall. Any chemical treatment is going to more useful in the fall than in the summer. I think the Check Mite is toxic to the bees. There are quite a few studies to show this and I have a friend who used it last year and lost all of his bees.

    >4. On the other hand, If I wait till Sept. 1st- will I have an issue the bees not having additional room to store honey? (the fall flow)

    Add a deep. If you end up with three partially filled boxes, you can consolidate it back down to two full ones on a warm day.

    >5.If I wait till Sept 1st- will I still have enough warm days for the menthol to be effective?

    Who knows. The FGMO is very effective on the tracheal mites and you can do it anytime. You can do the menthol grease patties in the fall as preventative for the tracheal mites, but I don't think it kills them.

    >6. Do I really need to feed syrup this fall if the hives have fill out the brood chamber?

    I don't feed syrup in the fall unless they are seriously short of stores, and then I feed honey if I have it.

    >It seems to me that getting this right is what is going to make it or break it next spring. Your insight and suggestions are welcomed. cj

    Most of what you are asking is a matter of opinion. There are a lot of them. Personally what I HAVE done is Apistan and wintergreen syrup and some FGMO painted on the top bars and grease patties. This worked well for several years, or I just got lucky. The Apistan is loosing effectiveness with resitant mites. The Check mite is too toxic.

    What I AM doing is natural cell size (small cell) and FGMO fog. So far I have very low, to no, drop counts. If I have high infestations in the fall I think I'm going to try the oxalic acid strips. If not, I'll see how they do on their own. The population of the mites expodes in the fall. One theory as to why it does this is that failing hives get robbed out and the robbers bring back hitchikers. I don't know but late summer to early fall is when I'd keep a closer eye out.

    Feeding is another matter of opinion. I feed some syrup sometimes, but I think winter feed should be honey. Some people believe that sugar syrup is BETTER winter feed because it causes less cleansing flights. I think there is more to nutrition than measuring cleansing flights. Some people steal all the honey and try to feed them back up to winter strength. I try to leave them more than enough. It's not just about getting through the winter. First it's nice to not worry about them running out. Second there is the late winter brood rearing that may take place and use up a lot of stores.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Ridgeway, VA , USA
    Posts
    72

    Post

    1. When should I be treating for mites in NJ? (both varroa & trachial)

    reply: When brood rearing is at minimum. In
    south central VA, from Oct.1 - Middle of November. 6-8 weeks. Most effective time.

    3. If I start treatment now, will I be at increased risk to mite re-infestation this fall?

    reply: Yes, because brood rearing is still
    high.

    4. On the other hand, If I wait till Sept. 1st- will I have an issue the bees not having additional room to store honey? (the fall flow)

    reply: It appears that you need to treat now.
    To save the colony is the priority at this point. Apistan and Checkmite, I've used both with good results. I would recommend you pull
    the supers and do a 7 day treatment with apistan and then check mite fall on day 7, if acceptable, pull strips and then reinstall supers for fall flow. Reason for 7
    days is: you will have the greatest mite fall the first 24 hours, and mite fall drops dramatically after the first 24 hours. So, in
    7 days you will be very effective at killing a lot of mites and still be able to take advantage of the flow. Then this fall you can treat them for the full 6-8 weeks
    with Apistan or Checkmite. I usually don't have to treat but once a year by treating from Oct.1- Nov.15.

    5.If I wait till Sept 1st- will I still have enough warm days for the menthol to be effective?

    reply: You need a least 21 good warm days for menthol to be effective. So, start no later than September 1st. Up north it may better to start around middle of August.

    6. Do I really need to feed syrup this fall if the hives have fill out the brood chamber?

    reply: No.

    In a perfect world we would all be on 4.9
    cell size and we wouldn't have a lot of these problems, but until we get there we
    have to do the best we can. Hope this helps.
    Duane.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Question

    MR-Bee, (Michael Bush)

    In your reply above, you stated:

    >You can do the menthol grease patties in the fall as preventive for the tracheal mites,

    Please explain "menthol grease patties".

    thanx
    Dave W

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,810

    Post

    Different bee suppliers sell grease patties and there are many recipes available. Some have wintergreen in them. Some have menthol. Some have other things. The grease is a preventative for the tracheal mites. It interferes with their breeding, I believe. I don't know that it kills the ones that are currently infesting the bees.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Wink

    MR Bee,

    I have grease patty recipes that use;
    1) grease & sugar only
    2) grease, sugar & wintergreen oil
    4) grease, sugar, salt and/or wintergreen

    Can you supply (or source) a recipe using menthol?

    thanx,
    Dave W

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,810

    Post

    I know I've seen them with peppermint and I'm pretty sure I've seen them with menthol, but menthol is made from peppermint. I may be mistaken, but I will try to check all my sources and see if I can find a recipe. Personally when I used them I used wintergreen oil in them. Now I'm fogging with FGMO instead.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Wayne, NJ USA
    Posts
    381

    Post

    Thanks to all for your feedback, it is appreciated.

    Michael,

    You mentioned painting the top bars w/FMGO, how frequently do you re-apply FMGO? Is this in additon to cotton cords or a replacement for them? cj

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,810

    Post

    This is from the early days of FGMO. I didn't know about cords or foggers. I just did it whenever I happened to have the hive open. No schedule.

    Now, if I was using the cords I wouldn't bother. The cords are the same principle except they are effective for a lot longer.

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