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Thread: Honeybee Swarms

  1. #81
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    >When will it stop?

    It won't stop while there is breath in her body. She has one idea in her head and nobody is going to disagree with her without getting a mouthful of abuse, as she clearly thinks everyone else in the known universe is intellectually inferior to herself.

    With any luck, she will realise that (almost) nobody is listening and go back to her - well, I nearly said 'research', but she doesn't appear to actually do any, just rubbishes everyone else's.

    Perhaps if we all just tiptoe out of the room, she can just rant to herself?
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  2. #82
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    >
    Your problem is that both of you are arrogant ignoramuses.

    >ignorant "punks" like you

    I think you made it out just before you were banned. Don't hurry back.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  3. #83
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    Good riddance.

    I like to see a good debate. I like to hear opinions. I like it that we don't all agree. It helps us to be critical thinkers.

    Insults and personal attacks are just not necessary or justified.
    Dan Williamson
    B&C Honey Farm http://www.flickr.com/photos/9848229@N05/

  4. #84
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    Oops. I believe I've seriously offended someone here (maybe others, too, who just haven't posted their opinions). I apologize for any offense I may have caused -- I certainly intended no offense. I had and still have questions about the controversy that I'd like answered, but no one seems willing or able in this thread (and, just for clarification, those questions involve both the "odor hypotheses" and the "dance-language hypotheses").

    I initially used the term "solid data" in this thread without realizing that the term apparently has been defined by others? Opponents of a dance language in honey bees criticize the data that von Frisch and others have collected because they argue that the experiments fail to control against bees relying only on odor or locate resources. To me, then, those data are not "solid." The data are open to criticism, making them "shaky." I said I wanted "solid data." I still do -- I'd like to see some data that clearly indicates whether or not bees can and do use the information contained in the "dances" of other bees.

    Ruth is correct in saying that data are open to interpretation. What I'd like to do is interpret the data for myself.

    "I am well aware that most members of this forum are not scientists. They do not understand what science is all about." -Ruth Rosin

    I am also aware that most members of this forum are not trained scientists. I do believe, however, that most members of this forum DO understand what science is all about. From what I've read in various threads on this board, the members, as a whole, are well-informed, observant, and keenly interested particularly in all aspects of beekeeping. I have never believed, nor do I believe now, that science should be the realm of an elite few. We all use science everyday, and, to some extent, we all conduct our own "research." The experiments may not be formal, or fully controlled, or widely significant, but they still constitute "research."

    As far as members of this forum understanding the research of others, if "scientists" can't make their work understandable to the "masses," why should we (as taxpayers and as members of society) continue to support them?

    "Re the DL controversy, there are only 2 possibilities. Either recruits use odor alone all along, or they use information contained in foragers'-dances about the approximate site visited by the foragers, and supplement that (when necessary), with a phase where they search for attractive odors "nearby", i.e. a phase where they use odor alone all along!" -Ruth Rosin

    What if both hypotheses are wrong? What if bees only rely on visual cues to find resource? What if they use something no one has even suggested yet? What if they use a combination of methods, either just a combination of the two proposed here, or a combination more methods? Why should we arbitrarily eliminate all the other possibilities?

    I know from personal experience (and from reading the works of others) that bumble bees and honey bees show strong preferences for certain colors. That indicates to me that some of the searching takes place visually, not through odor alone.

    "I did not, of course, bring up the "little fairies" story as a serious scientific explanation. I brought it up only as the kind of scientific explanation that you, Kieck, should consider, because it is just as preposterous as other scientific explanations you still insist on seriously considering." -Ruth Rosin

    Yep. I caught that. Did you notice the little, yellow, smiley guy behind my response to that? I knew it wasn't a serious suggestion, and I never took it seriously. I'm not sure yet why a language hypothesis among bees is "preposterous." I know I've been accused on this thread of anthropomorphism; perhaps I do give other animals too much credit at times. I fear "anthrocentrism" as much or more than anthropomorphism, though. Humans are still animals, after all, so assuming that no other animals can approach the behaviors we exhibit might be just as faulty as assuming that other animals can do everything humans do.

    So, having said all that (if anyone else out there is still bothering to read all of this), I'll leave this one alone for now. Until someone comes along with some fresh evidence (data and interpretations, not just criticisms or hypothetical arguments) one way or the other on the whole "dance-language controversy," I don't see much point to bantering and conjecturing about the possibilities.

  5. #85
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    Kieck,

    I had no problem with you...

    But using terms such as "punk" and "arrogant ignoramuses" both written by Ruth is just behavior that frankly irritates me.

    This is Barry's site and he can keep people or ban people as he sees fit. I have no say in the matter. I was just voicing my dislike for that kind of behavior. Thinking it and saying it are two different things. [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Dan Williamson
    B&C Honey Farm http://www.flickr.com/photos/9848229@N05/

  6. #86
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    >I think you made it out just before you were banned.

    How so you KNOW she is banned? I'm sure going to miss all the verbal abuse. However it was unfortunate that all thet 'straight thinking' would not let the neuances of senceability shed any light on the process.

    >Until someone comes along with some fresh evidence (data and interpretations, not just criticisms or hypothetical arguments)...

    There is an article in the latest ABJ on page 242 if you would like to read it. Personally, I just read this thread for the comic entertainment. I really hate it when something gets edited before I get to read it.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  7. #87
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    Kieck,
    No problem with you at all - I'm impressed you took all that abuse for so long without biting back. I agree with you about science not being the realm of the few and about scientists obligation to communicate effectively. That was PP's big problem - her inability to communicate with intelligent laymen without resort to abuse, which utterly destroyed her credibility.

    BB,
    I don't know whether or not she was banned, but my guess is that Barry wouldn't easily overlook her last onslaught, having already warned her.

    Now then, I'm sure I had some bees around here someplace...
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  8. #88
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    > I don't know whether or not she was banned

    Well, I haven't seen any celebrating Munchkins
    or Winged Monkeys with my own eyes yet, but a
    check of a certain user's profile reveals a
    reset to "house bee" status, and also no "recent
    posts" are listed on that profile.

    Offhand, I'd conclude that someone DID drop
    a house on the user at issue.

  9. #89
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    Ding Dong!
    I've found it easier to keep bees than keep relationships. At least when I'm stung by bees I know why.

  10. #90
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    Wow - turn off beesource to watch curling for a few nights and I missed the much predicted and awaited flame-out.

    Ah well, where's my 44 poound rock . . .

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  11. #91
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    And so ends another chapter in the postings of Ruth! She will dissappear back into the deepest recesses of Bee-L and other more educated posts depriving us of her sharp wit and intensely defended scientific opinions. Spring will come eventually and like the tree frogs and daffodils she will again return to stomp, kick and verbally thrash us into teary laughter, at least for a time.

    I think we all learned something, once again.

  12. #92
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    Thank you Joel for that lovely perspective.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  13. #93
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    Joel - not so deep, she is back in action on Bee-L at this moment. No need to miss her, just fire up your email.

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  14. #94
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    Question

    :confused: Does it really make a difference how the bees communicate? As long as they can find necture and pollen I'm happy [img]smile.gif[/img] .
    \"ONLY WHEN THE LAST RIVER HAS BEEN DRIED UP<br />THE LAST TREE BEEN CUT DOWN<br />THE LAST WILD FISH CAUGHT<br />WILL MAN REALIZE YOU CAN\'T EAT MONEY\"<br />GHANDI (?)

  15. #95
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    Silverfox,

    Now why didn't you say that a week ago? It could have saved us all a lot of trouble.

    It would have gotten you some abuse, though!
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  16. #96
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    LOL Hoped someone else would say it first.

    ABUSE

    Who would ever want to do that to little 'ol me??

    [size="1"][ February 25, 2006, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: SilverFox ][/size]
    \"ONLY WHEN THE LAST RIVER HAS BEEN DRIED UP<br />THE LAST TREE BEEN CUT DOWN<br />THE LAST WILD FISH CAUGHT<br />WILL MAN REALIZE YOU CAN\'T EAT MONEY\"<br />GHANDI (?)

  17. #97
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    Yup, Ruth has surfaced on BEE-L and is firing her torpedoes at the recent radar-tracking study. It will be interesting to see what happens over there- BEE-L has been rather entertaining lately but Ruth might get things really hopping.

    It is reassuring to know that she is apparently none the worse for wear after thrashing us Beesourcerers.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  18. #98
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    Paul, actually your thougt about them drumming up a morse code was way beyond my narrow mindedness, but I think it's a brilliant notion. I really don't know, I was suggesting that sound may play a role, maybe a significant role. The thing about how bees can't hear, I did not know that....but are we sure? makes you wonder why queens would pipe if there isno bee to hear it. Interesting conversation. Thanks!

  19. #99
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    ...and don't forget the possibility of them sending semaphore signals with their antennae.

    But wait a minute - this is a good point. The conventional view is that bees cannot hear in the usual sense of the word, so why would queens pipe? Or can only queens hear? Or can they only 'hear' as imagos not yet emerged from their cells?

    Maybe this should be a new thread?
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  20. #100
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    Bees can hear airborne sounds.

    See here.
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...745;p=1#000004

    (Or is that "see, HEAR"?) [img]smile.gif[/img]

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