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Thread: Honeybee Swarms

  1. #21
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    So Jim do you have a recording of it?
    \"I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree<br />And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made<br />nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee<br />and live alone in the bee-loud glade.\"<br />-- WB Yeats

  2. #22
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    one of my buddies has an acoustics design company, and he is just the type to get some enjoyment out of such an experiment. I have been looking for something like this to do a study on, and since there is little public support for such a theory, I'd love to take it on to prove or disprove it, or at least to uncover more evidence one way or the other.

  3. #23
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    Mark, if you will look a little closer, you will see other goofs. Like missing commas, "that" rather than "than", defense spelled with a C, ETC. I quit responding to Mr. Vaughn quite a while ago, just because he is so friendly and tactful.

  4. #24
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    Anyone know where I left my hive tool?
    :confused:
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  5. #25
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    the reason I think sound is more likely than a visual message like waggle is waggle when seen above (human eyes) carries a fairly clear pattern, but if you were a abee you wouldn't see a figure 8. Waggle is more likely a cue that "I'm making the sound, focus on me" Sound on the other hand, could relay an immense amount of information to every forager in the hive.

    attention all foragers (tap tap tap)
    item (nectar, pollen, water, enemy)
    amount (from a flower to a field of them)
    2 o clock from a 12 o clock sunrise (direction)
    300 meters distance in meters
    end of message (whirr buzz, or some other distinct sound)

  6. #26
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    Found it! Sorry to interrupt....
    [img]smile.gif[/img]

    [size="1"][ February 17, 2006, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: HarryVanderpool ][/size]
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  7. #27
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    Fordguy,

    I think that would be great if you could get your friend to this. I think the whole communication thing is fascinating.

    Kieran
    \"I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree<br />And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made<br />nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee<br />and live alone in the bee-loud glade.\"<br />-- WB Yeats

  8. #28
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    he's an engineer and a tinkerer...and successful at his business...and he owes me some favors! haha. I did some legal stuff for him some time back. I think I'd need to read the other study so as to not re invent the wheel.

  9. #29
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    Hey, Murphy. We were in the Richtersvelt/Bushmanland area.

  10. #30
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    To KIeck,

    As usual you make comments that are totally irrelevant to the issue at hand, and provide answers to question that neither you, nor anyone else can answer.

    Wenner studied the sound produced by dancing food-foragers, during the waggle-run. In all waggle-dances (including waggle-dances performed by nest-scouts), the waggle-run is always accompanied by a pulsed sound. Butthe sound produced by dancing bees is totally irrelevant to the problem of what leads the swarm to follow the scouts into the newnest-site.

    Scouts do not have an inherited attraction to odors associated with a nest. They learn what such odors smell like, as a result of having developed and lived in a nest. No one knows, or can know the long gone, ancient evolution of honeybees that resulted in their first beginning to occupy wooden cavities.

  11. #31
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    To Tim Vaugham,

    I also found the only 30 mm. "streaks" unbelievable, where 30 cm. would make more sense. But, as far as I can remember, the authors mention the 30 mm. more than once. So it is most probably not a typo. They also do not state whether the "streakers" could be identified specifically as marked nest-scouts.

    I have no doubt that nest-scouts are attracted to prospective nest-sites by odor, and that alien ("dad") odors repel them. No body actually studied it, but I would not be surprised at all, if the scouts would not stay for long in a cavity that has attractive odors, but is too hot, or too cold inside because there are other openings leading to the cavity.

  12. #32
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    well I think the sound thing ought to be looked at. There are definitly some communications that go on based on pitch (frequency), and probably also based on volume.

    My uneducated guess is that there is a little bit of both going on. The hive is a complex orgnanism that engages in concertive action ulitizing a multitude of methods, including movement, odor (and other chemicals) as well as sound.

    People communicate in many ways, as do other animals. It only makes sense that bees would also.

    (harry, were you sitting on your hive tool again?)

  13. #33
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    To Ruth,

    In a different comment, you said that no one has ever heard scouts piping. What's the difference between "piping" and the "pulsed sound" produced during the waggle dances? Is there a fundamental difference between the two, or is it strictly a difference in name?

    As far as my comments about learning or inheriting preferences for certain odors that the bees associate with the hive, I fail to understand WHY a discussion of how these preferences are created is irrelevant. Perhaps you (or someone else) could enlighten me? I commented that the scouts don't live all that long. Logically, then, these scouts wouldn't have lived in a series of hives but in one hive only. The smells in their original hives would be the only ones that I would expect them to associate with suitable hive sites (unless there IS an instinctive preference). Following the train of thought, then, bees should seek out very similar situations for establishing new colonies. And in some cases they do, moving into the walls of buildings. (Most stick-built buildings here are built with pine lumber of some variety.)

    But that still begs the question of how they differentiate from one odor plume to the next. Do swarms actually find cavities by trial-and-error? For instance, in a situation with a cavity in pine too small for a hive, a cavity ideally sized for a hive, and some large pine planks (no cavity) in close proximity, would the swarm be likely to alight first on the bare planks, then transfer to the cavity? If not, how could they distinguish the odor plume wafting from the pine cavity from the odor plume wafting from the tiny cavity from the odor plume wafting from the bare pine planks?

  14. #34
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    Hi All,

    As far as I know honeybees in the hive start making "a lot of buzzing noise" inside the hive, at least hours before a swarm leaves the hive.

    And someone even tried to develop a system of loud-speakers that would alert beekeepers at home, that a swarm is about to exit soon, so that the beekeepers could stop it, by finding the queen and moving her together with many of the workers into a new, empty hive.

    I think the issue had been brought up on the Irishbeekeeping web-site.

  15. #35
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    Cool

    Now rosenbio, don't give up so easily with your smelly ODOR theory. Surely bees preparing to swarm generate a large amount of ODOR in the hive hours before swarming - how else could they possibly "know" it's time to warm? Heck, the swarming bees are so smelly the parent hive won't allow them back into the hive fully no-way all along!

    Hey TV, I lived in Sandton (a Johannesburg suburb) for a few years and removed a swarm from the below ground water meter in front of the house.

    My theory is bees are attracted to musty odors and learned to pipe in Ireland. If you like, I can prove it using "prickly pear" style circular reasoning.
    Triangle Bees

  16. #36
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    Could it possibly be mold oders that the scout bees detect? This would explain why they find both the hollow trees (aka lightning strikes)and the water meter cavities. And it would not necessarily be restricted to current generation scout bees - i.e. genetic memory.

    Let the firing begin
    Bee all you can Bee!
    http://www.hamiltonapiary.net

  17. #37
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    The critique at the head of this thread is nothing more than another obsessive rant, full of meaningless sentences, e.g.

    &gt;There is, however, a very simple solution to the problem, because the authors, which the authors were unable to find because they failed to pose the right wedded to the honeybee "dance language" (DL) hypothesis.

    unsubstantiated, meaningless assertions, e.g.

    &gt;The scouts must, therefore, be attracted to specific tiny holes, by the odors those holes have

    &gt;Honeybees (whether foragers, or nest-scouts), never decide whether to dance, or not.

    and specious arguments (end to end) and does not warrant publication in any form, anywhere, IMO.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  18. #38
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    To Ford Guy,

    The only information the sound produced by dancing bees may carry to other hive-mates, or swarm-mates, is that there is a sound they hear.

    But bees not attracted by the odors the dancer caries ignore it completely. And bees attracted by the odors become dance-attendants. But, there has never been any even remotely convincing evidence that they obtain any information from the sound.

    And I adamantly refuse to go into it all over again.

  19. #39
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    Correction to my first post on HONEYBEE SWARMS.

    To Bucckbee,

    My nonsensical statement is simply due to my e-mail composing program, which keeps deleting portions of my message without my even being aware of it. It is very frustrating, and I don't know what to do about it. I even asked the experts on one discussion groups, and have been advised to delete only by using the backspace; which is a real drag. So, I sometimes forget not to delete by selecting and clicking on "delete". I deliberately try to very carefully re-read before sending, but sometimes, especially when sending a long post, I end up not doing it carefully enough. (I copied that whole post from another post, which I now need to check very carefully, because I had already sent copies to other sites.)

    At any rate, my utterly meaningless statement should read:

    There is, however, a very simple solution to the problem, which the authors were unable to find because they failed to ask the right question. And they failed to ask the right question because they are still wedded to the honeybee "dance language" (DL) hypothesis.

    Thanks for catching the sheer nonsense in my post, which gives me a chance to correct it!

  20. #40
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    "So, anyone who has reservations, or points of criticism, about this post, is welcome to express them. But, I do not intend to respond."

    "And I adamantly refuse to go into it all over again."

    I detect a pattern here.

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

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