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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    6,080

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    Joel.
    >I think state inspections are good if they are done by the appropriate people. (individuals who have no vested interest in making money from bees)
    .....
    Not sure if thats possible, and not sure if I agree with that. Overwelmingly in Pa. most commercial operators were past inspectors. They took the job to learn from others. Some used the job for a few years while they were making the transition from hobbiest to sideliner to commercial.

    I think of saying that they should have "no vested interest in making money from bees", it should be stated that "they should have no vested interest in the inspections of others". Very big difference. The state makes it very clear about "conflict of interests", and forms are signed.

    [size="1"][ December 20, 2005, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ][/size]

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Perkasie, PA
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    1,998

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    Joel, there is no need to apologize. There is nothing wrong about expressing strong opinions. In my case I usually do little beyond expressing them as there seems to be only a weak relationship between the strength of my opinions and their rectitude.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Worthington, Pennsylvania USA
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    1,848

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    <My view is that beekeepers with "bear problems"
    should lobby for the reduction or elimination
    of hunting license fees, and longer seasons on
    bears, rather than make bear hunting more
    expensive for the hunters, but these beekeepers
    wanted cash, not a solution to their problem.>
    Jim Fischer:
    Some of your opinion I can agree with--twenty years or more ago(might have been thirty) the Pennsylvania bear hunting season was included in the regular hunting license fee. Now it is an addition fee. When it was included the hunters were much more numerous.
    Now, not as many hunters are pursueing bear and the population is growing. The "trouble" or "problem" bears are live trapped and moved to a more remote area--guess what--I am in one of those more remote areas. No matter how many bears are harvested the trapped bears will still be dropped off in my or someone elses back yard.
    I do not know the answer for the dilemma other than taking all the precautions I can to prevent the bears from destroying my hives.
    Now back to bee inspections!
    We have automobile inspections for safety, without the inspections I can just imagine what would be driving down the road coming right at us. No lights, no brakes, bald tires, shattered windshields etc.
    We have roadblocks for checks on drivers--alcohol impaired or drug impaired are quite common. I feel these are acceptable and necessary things to help with the safety of us all. The testing for unsafe or unapproved pesticides or insectacide residues on foods is also acceptable to me. Yeah, I know that everything has a price or cost associated with it. I always would rather be safe than sorry! I am looking forward to the next bee inspector visit.
    "Younz" have a great day, I will.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,329

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    >We have automobile inspections for safety, without the inspections I can just imagine what would be driving down the road coming right at us. No lights, no brakes, bald tires, shattered windshields etc.

    I remember before there were inspections. I remember when they started inspections in virtually every state and I remember when most of them dropped them. (at least most of the states I've lived in dropped them). There was no difference other than the inspection stations forcing a lot of people to get unneeded repairs.

    A friend of mine, back when Oklahoma had inspections, went to ten different places and each place issued him a "fix it" document that said he would pass if that particular thing was fixed. Every "fix it" was different and every one of them was what that place sold. Mufflers, brakes etc.

    An aquaintance of mine was trying to get his vehicle passed and they didn't like his fancy tires because there wasn't enough tread. He pulled it into the street and put the four tires he had in the trunk on, and got it inspected again. Then he pulled it onto the street and put the bald tires back on.

    If someone drives down the road with no lights the police pull them over and write them a ticket. If the police see a shattered winshield they pull them over and write them a ticket. It doesn't require inspections. Where I live if you have bald tires, you will get stuck in the snow. [img]smile.gif[/img] How far can you drive with no brakes?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Worthington, Pennsylvania USA
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    1,848

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    Only got one thing chopped up--that ain't bad
    "Younz" have a great day, I will.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
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    Bjorn, a few years back David Howland, a very respected and honest beekeeper in our area, wintered his hives in SC. He lost numerous hives and a great deal of equipment one winter while he was up north preparing for the next season. After a great deal of effort the hives were located, where, in the yard of one of the New York State inspectors. The inspector was subsequently charged for the theft but Howland never got his equipment or money. In what other industry are mandatory inspectons done by competing members of the industry? It is probably not legal and I would bet very easily challenged in court. There are other options including inpsections done through cooperative extension and other related programs. Doans did a great job hear for many years, I hope the crew we have now is honest.

    [They took the job to learn from others.}

    I don't pay taxes so an inspector can come learn how to keep bees from me or some other inspector, it's an inspection program not a training program. Let him take the EAS courses or Dyce Master Beekeeping course to hone his skills. I expect him to be the expert. The sole function of a public servant with enforcement powers should be to serve in a manner that provides equal protection under the law without a blatent conflict of interest to influence any decision.

    [size="1"][ December 20, 2005, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Odessa, Missouri
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    629

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    Joel,
    Our state bee inspector has never owned a hive of bees. Does not do inspections himself. The commercial beekeepers of the state have been helping Michael learn about beekeeping. Instead of approaching us like he has all the answers he approached the opposite way. We really like our inspector. When an inspection is needed he hires a beekeeper to go inspect the hives for him. Usually he hires one commercial beekeeper to inspect another.
    He might end up being the best inspector we ever had!
    Bob Harrison

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
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    3,361

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    As strange as it sounds, I prefered the old days when in our area, Doanes handled the inspections. I didn't have to be at the yards which I seldom have time for, I had confidence in them because I knew they were experianced and weren't out there killing my queens pulling frames. Yes they were beekeepers which I will always contend is a conflict of interest. We only knew they had been there because they stapled a card to a hive, used a grease pen on anything with problems and knew we would do the right thing.

    I had some upstart hobbyist inspector with a certificte from the Dyce course this year tell me I should be at the yards when he inspected, I might learn something. Well of course with that I was anxious to get educated. Never showed up because he got tied up extracting honey. I got passed through two other inspectors, one of which wanted to open my hives when it was raining and 40 degrees because he wanted to "finish up in my area." I want a dedicated inspector whose job it is to inspect bees. A Public Servant (having been one myself for 21 yrs) who appreciates what that means. Not in between honey flows and pulling supers, not keeping track of where my yards are in case he has a bad season, not making decisions based on how he runs his operation. 3 or 4 yrs ago when NY inspections started again I had 30 queens waiting for install on 2 queen units in May. Had planed to spend and hour with him in the morning and install queens all afternoon. He didn't show, didn't call because he couldn't get ahold of the other hobbyist he wanted to inspect in my area. Not really his job, not really a priority, just a sideline to pick up a few extra dollars. Weather turned bad for a week, lost 5 queens and set my 2 queen units back 6 days.

    Maybe if I eventually have better luck with inspections I'll feel differently.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    6,080

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    Joel,
    I am not sure if its just a different view or arrogance, to think that an inspector knows or should know everything there is to know about bees before assuming the title or job of a state inspector. Were talking "seasonal" and part time work, and not all that great of pay.

    I'll use me as an example. Do I know, or better yet, did I know how to find AFB when I took the job? Sure. How about counting mites? I can do that too. EFB, Sac, Chalk, etc. Sure. The actual part of finding the deseases that state inspections are seeking, and filling out the paperwork is not rocket science. Are most of the inspectors seasoned professionals? Yes. I am glad that most beekeepers are unlike you who feel they need to be EAS masterbeekeepers or at least "expert". I go into an inspection with open eyes eager to learn from the beekeeper I am visiting, more than my need to be an "expert" to anyone. I never had an inspector come to my place and left with me feeling they even tried to be superior in any way. I am glad for that.

    Maybe I just needed to be elementary in explaining that many beekeepers wanting to go commercial, view this opportubity to learn from others. Maybe not at finding AFB, but the little differences that beekeepers maintain, manage, and do things smarter with years experience. Its the conversations about feeding, about queen rearing, about the dog, the horse, and whatever there is too talk about that makes the visit not only an opportunity for two beekeepers to learn from each other, but make the visit pleasant and rewarding. I have learned more about the industry and beekeeping from this short stint being an inspector and hopefully the community I have served feels that way.

    Somehow joel, I think you understand the comment about inspectors wanting to learn. It was meant a little deeper than a "On the Job Training" comment. I hope I never stop learning. I guess its typical of todays society that one bad cop, one bad politician, one bad beekeeper or inspector, sets the tone and feelings to be carried to everyone else. It always surprises me when one event is wieghted to allow permanant opinions to be negative for so long. Even when there is so much positive to offset one or two bad apple examples.

    Rob, sounds like a nice system. Not really sure about one commercial guy inspecting another however.

  10. #50

    Post

    >>>>Our state bee inspector has never owned a hive of bees. Does not do inspections himself. The commercial beekeepers of the state have been helping Michael learn about beekeeping. Instead of approaching us like he has all the answers he approached the opposite way. We really like our inspector. When an inspection is needed he hires a beekeeper to go inspect the hives for him. Usually he hires one commercial beekeeper to inspect another.
    He might end up being the best inspector we ever had>>>>>>


    I know I'll regret asking but"

    Rob"
    What is the point of having an inspector if he's using your neighbors to do the inspections?
    Doesn't this make the best inspector you've ever had about the same as not having one at all?

    No matter to me ether way, I'm just trying to reason out your thoughts here.

    [size="1"][ December 20, 2005, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Carolina-Family-Farm ][/size]

  11. #51

    Post

    Joel"

    Can you wave an inspection due to bad weather or is it mandatory that you allow the inspections at the time he shows up?

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
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    3,361

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    Inspection in New York is completely voluntary due to the limited program and the virutal collapse a few years back. Of course after 9/11 NYS took such a hit we had no money for police overtime, much less bee inspectors.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Odessa, Missouri
    Posts
    629

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    Bjorn & Carolina,
    Missouri is not a big beekeeping state ( largest beekeeper 8000 hives). I think around 7-10 commercial beekeepers and about the same number of serious sideliners.
    We had a hard time even keeping a state apiary inspector after joe Franca left. The state rejected my idea of giving us the permits and we would sign & inspect our own hives. Also might have been what led to us getting a bee inspector.
    I think beekeepers forget what a small industry beekeeping is and growing smaller each year. Illinois used to be a big beekeeping state but I only know of one commercial beekeeper (1000 hives) and a handful of sideliners. Government jobs are not usually allowed for such a small number of people.
    In Missouri the state bee inspector does other jobs besides beekeeping ( like management of the state fair honey judging).
    Other than permits I have never needed a inspection. A commercial beekeeper inspecting my hives after they returned from California did find two deadouts which he noted on the sheet. Duh!
    Hobby beekeepers are the people needing inspections for the most part and is a big expense for an apiary inspection department.
    Missouri has the worst roads in the U.S., Two of the highest crime cities and our schools are going broke.
    Getting the hives inspected for hobby beekeepers is on hold for now it seems.
    Riverboat casinos were supposed to solve the problems but the money seems to be not making it from the casinos to the areas needing the money.
    Bob Harrison

  14. #54

    Post

    It doesn't sound like the commercial beekeepers really need inspection, just permits as you said. I understand what your talking about in the case of your inspector, he's really not bothering the guys who know what there doing and assisting beekeepers who don't and ask for help.

    Can I ask what the permits are for?

    Thanks for the information

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
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    3,401

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    > It doesn't sound like the commercial beekeepers
    > really need inspection

    Suuuure [img]smile.gif[/img]

    One of the biggest problems we face in disease
    and pest control is the default assumption that
    operation size alone implies competence. Not
    true. Any idiot can buy an operation, and even
    the best beekeepers are limited by the skills
    and work ethic of their staff.

    This is why many states (used to be all, but
    some states have no apiary program now) require
    inspections before a permit can be issued, and
    even with this "protection" interstate bee
    movement is certain to result in new introductions
    of hitherto unknown diseases and pests into
    the immediate destination area.

    Also, understand that widespread resistance in
    varroa and AFB would not exist if the only
    misapplication/misuse of medications was among
    hobby beekeepers. Hobbyists as a whole simply
    don't have enough hives!

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Odessa, Missouri
    Posts
    629

    Post

    Carolina,
    We need a permit saying we are from a fire ant free state to help us cross into California easier. The weather is too cold for a hive inspection before almonds ( Feb. 1st.) but we usually get one when they leave after Thanksgiving and spend the winter in California.
    Missouri inspects the hives on our return from California.
    The bees are inspected at least once in California. Twice last trip. Or four times in three months by four different inspectors which found nothing remarkable.
    Has another member of the list ever had his hives inspected four times in four months by four different inspectors? I thought not.
    I can see why a hobby beekeeper would love to get a knowledgeable beekeeper to look at his hives and think the government should provide the service at a reasonable fee. In Australia the fee to get permits/inspections runs $120 an hour.
    Hell for $120 an hour I will come tell you what you are doing wrong.
    Jim,
    "Any idiot can buy an operation"

    If you run across an idiot please give him my email address! Thanks in advance!

    "and even the best beekeepers are limited by the skills and work ethic of their staff"

    I am wondering about my staff as the other day when I opened a truck box about 20 mt beer bottles fell out. I called the crew together and asked about the bottles. They said they had picked the bottles up by the road and were going to recyle. I am big into recycling so I asked their forgivness for missjudging them.
    Bob Harrison

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

    Post

    Can we say that????

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
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    3,361

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    {I hardly think that state run bee inspections equate to incursions against our freedom}

    A group of patriots felt a tax on tea was enough of an incursion againt their freedoms to die fighting for freedom from England.

    It may look different if what you were able to do with or where you could place your bees determined whether your family could eat and live indoors.

    I don't think current bee inspections are an invasion of freedom, just not very well administrated. Even if I did Congress has nothing to do with it since it is a state function. I would have to meet with my state senator or legislator. (which I have done numerous times over the past 15 yrs. in regards to furthing the interests of our industry)

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Lima, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    720

    Post

    I guess it really depends on where you draw the line between personal freedom and public health, safty and the rights of others.

    Here in Ohio registration is only $5 per apiary regardless of number of hives. Quite a bargan for inspection and input from a (hopefully) experienced and trained beekeeper. Still you can opt out of inspection unless you sell bees or queens which is perfectly understandable given that you are then offering a product for sale to the general public. Unfortunately Ohio also leaves it up to each county to hire and pay for an inspector and some are underfunded or simply don't have one at all. We do have two state inspectors but they understandably can't get around to everyone.

    Because of the lack of funding and shortage of inspectors a lot of hives go uninspected, even those that are to be sold and even when the inspector had been notified in advance. I have also seen the state advise a producer of nucs to go ahead and sell them without inspection because the county had no inspector at the time and the state inspector was not available. (I never saw the inspector this year myself).

    I too have met with the county and state senators, mostly because of my civil engineering job which sometimes deals with said officials, but I always try to bring up beekeeping when it's not inappropriate. (It does help that I removed a swarm from a tree in our county comissioners yard. It was a great oportunity for PR with one of the officials who decide on our county inspector.

    -Tim

    [size="1"][ December 21, 2005, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: tarheit ][/size]

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

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    > They said they had picked the bottles up
    > by the road and were going to recyle.

    Well, they must get SOME credit for such
    quick on-their-feet thinking. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Could have been worse, the bottles could have
    been in the CAB of the truck!

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