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Thread: bear problems

  1. #21
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    >(And no, the .300 ain't for the deer)

    And WHY not? At 350 yards it should be just as effective as a 308 at 150 yards. And just think, you wouldnt have to gut or skin it

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    Bullseye Bill
    Smack dab in the middle of the country.

  2. #22
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    Bear meat is tolerable from a truly wild bear that feeds on acorns and berries(and bees!)Sausage was always my favorite,The trick is to skin them quickly as the heavy hide holds in heat and will cause the meat to sour.
    I have skinned many a cat and coyote(sorry,Coyote) but was never tempted to eat them.Beaver is another story......
    by the way my favorite bear gun is an old Remington.308 with open sights shooting hand loads.With bear dogs all the action was close up.

  3. #23
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    My choice for bear would be my 6.5 x 55mm Swedish Mauser Ackley Improved with a Hornady 160 grain round nose bullet going about three grand. But then my choice for deer would be my 6.5 x 55 with a 140 grain Barnes "X" going about 3200 FPS. Coyotes, well, if you want to keep the skin I'd go with my 25-06 with a Hornady 87 grain spitzer doing about 3400 fps. You can have the .300 mags. Too much gun for me.

  4. #24
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    When pelt prices were high in the 70's I bought a .17 Remington with a 12 power scope.It went out around 4000 but after 250 yards droppped pretty quick..With an old wooden Weems I kept groceries on the table calling cats and coyotes.You are right the cats would slip in and be real close before I knew they were there.I once called in 5 coyotes at once.I was so freaked I only got 2. Havent hunted much in recent years,too darn many bees to take care of,but when the nights get frosty I think about getting some Plott pups and training them.

  5. #25
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    "You can have the .300 mags. Too much gun for me."

    It's really only good for elk around here. To be honest, the thing has so much kick I only shoot with it once or twice year. Once to check the sighting, then again if I get lucky on a hunt. I have a little Savage .223 for coyotes.

  6. #26
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    Mike,

    I like your gun choices. I took a 7x7 Idaho bull Elk with a .25-06 with 119 grain Noslers.

    With any large animal getting the cape off and the meat boned out as fast as possible is the key to taste. Unless you have a walk in freezer real close.

  7. #27
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    My handloads in the .25-06 are moving out there pretty nice and get a pretty good spin, so if I was using it for elk, I resize a 140 grain .264 Barnes "X" to .257 in a Lyman cast bullet sizing die and push it about 2800 in the .25-06 and I have no problem with stabilizing it at that speed even with the 1 - 10 twist. My problem with elk with the .25-06 has always been bullet performance. They don't like to expand. In the 6.5mm any kind of bullet ALWAYS expands. I think it's that 1 - 7 1/2 twist. But the Barnes "X" always expands in the .25-06. I suppose any premium bullet would do, but that's what I've used.

    Of course the 160 grain in the 6.5 not only expands, but in the words of Ross Siegfried "it can expand break off and expand again and still have more weight left than most bullets have nestled safely in their box".

  8. #28
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    Nosler makes a bullet that is right for any game, in any caliber, and in the right bullet weight for your barrel twist.

    It is not wise to remanufacture a product that has been tried, tested, and intended for a particular application.

    Manufacturers spend a lot of money making and testing products to preform in the way to give the best results, and will when used safely. Use only the products as they are intended with the loading data published by the manufacturers.

    Serious injury can occure when basic safety procedures are not adheard too.

    ------------------
    Bullseye Bill
    Smack dab in the middle of the country.

  9. #29
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    The only problem with sizing down a bullet that ends up longer than “normal” is stabilizing it. If you don't spin it fast enough (by combination of rifling twist and velocity) then it just keyholes and won't hit the broad side of a barn. Many people make their own bullets all the time and resize them all the time. My problem is I want a longer heavier premium bullet in the .25-06. The manufacturers don't make it because all the .25 calibers only come in 1-12 or 1-10 twist and they figure if they make a longer one, you may not push it fast enough to stabilize it and you'll think their bullets are to blame. And, in a round about way, the length of the bullet (combined with the lack of spin) is to blame. I could buy all the swaging dies to make them, but that would be very expensive. It's easier to start with the closest thing to what I want an change it just a little. The difference between .257 and .264 is the same as the depth of the rifling. Seven thousanths. In a soft copper bullet it's easy to size down that much. With a hard jacket it is not.

    .250 - 25 caliber bore
    .257 - 25 caliber grooves and 6.5mm bore
    .264 - 6.5mm grooves

    And, of course, you shouldn't go putting some unknown quantity of some unknown speed of powder behind anything.

    I wouldn't get much done if I left everything the way the manufacturers made it.

  10. #30
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    >The only problem with sizing down a bullet that ends up longer than “normal” is stabilizing it.

    Longer bullets have more land and groove contact and result in more positive spin per area of contact. A positive spin is only a part of the equation.

    >If you don't spin it fast enough (by combination of rifling twist and velocity) then it just keyholes and won't hit the broad side of a barn.

    This is a false statement. Target loads are ALWAYS slower in velosity for best accuracy.


    >Many people make their own bullets all the time and resize them all the time.

    True, but they make LEAD bullets, not jacketed bullets, although it can be done, it is a very rare exception. Re-swaging a jacketed bullet will not only reform the bullet, but deform it as well, you will not see what it does on the inside where the lead and jacket are seperated. Loosening a jacket on a high velosity round can lead to the bullet fragmenting in mid air.

    >My problem is I want a longer heavier premium bullet in the .25-06.

    If they don't make it, it is for a reason. Preformance and safty are the prime reasons. If they don't make it, it is because it is either a non-preformer or the CUP pressures (chamber pressures) do not allow it to be done safely. They will not put an unsafe product out knowingly.

    >The manufacturers don't make it because all the .25 calibers only come in 1-12 or 1-10 twist and they figure if they make a longer one, you may not push it fast enough to stabilize it and you'll think their bullets are to blame.

    If there was a twist/weight combination that would preform better they would have made it. Manufacturers are always looking for another product to sell. Pushing a heavier bullet faster does not make it stabilize any better, in fact the inverse happens and it will over stabilize and preform worse.

    >And, in a round about way, the length of the bullet (combined with the lack of spin) is to blame.

    In a VERY round about way. Those are only two of the components that contribute to accuracy. You are not taking into account balistic co-effencency of the bullet, the shape of and the distance of the ogive of the bullet from the base and also to the lands in the chamber, the Bullet "jump", or the pressure spikes that a long bullet will cause when loaded hard into the lands. Ballance point of the bullet, jacket thickness, and bullet coatings. Not to mention neck tension, brass thickness, barrel harmonics, powder and primer burn rates.


    >I could buy all the swaging dies to make them, but that would be very expensive.

    My earlier point of fact.

    >It's easier to start with the closest thing to what I want an change it just a little. The difference between .257 and .264 is the same as the depth of the rifling. Seven thousanths. In a soft copper bullet it's easy to size down that much. With a hard jacket it is not.
    .250 - 25 caliber bore
    .257 - 25 caliber grooves and 6.5mm bore
    .264 - 6.5mm grooves


    Making one's own bullet and caliber is known as "WILDCATING". Only a seasoned hand loader or gunsmith should attempt deviating from factory and SAMMI standards, and those that do should be very cautious when experimenting in this hobby.

    >And, of course, you shouldn't go putting some unknown quantity of some unknown speed of powder behind anything.


    My point exactly. You and I know where to get starting loads for experimenting, but do they? I am a professional in the firearms trade, I am a competitive shooter, I am a master reloader and teach reloading. I believe that promoting undocumentable procedures is irresponsible. I would never suggest any methods or charges that I could not find in published manuals that were tested and proven by a manufacturer.

    Michael, there are people here on this forum that worship the screen you post to. If you want to wildcat, more power to you, it is a free country, you can take that responsibility into your own hands. You can and will do as you please, I would have it no other way. BUT. Like it or not, it is all too possible that someone would try to do something beyond their abilities simply because their "hero" said that it was ok and that HE does it all the time.


    >I wouldn't get much done if I left everything the way the manufacturers made it.

    You obviously have the wrong caliber rifle if it will not preform to your standards with SAMMI specification ammunition.

    Your words are heavy on this list, I do not fault you for what you do. My concern is only for the sake of safety.

    Bill

  11. #31
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    I am glad to see that this is a well armed group!I would only like to add that as a hobby reloader I found plenty of satisfactory choices of components for loading some pretty effective bear loads.

  12. #32
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    Anything that works for whitetail will work for bear in the lower 48. There are many, many good choices available over the counter.

  13. #33
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    >Longer bullets have more land and groove contact and result in more positive spin per area of contact. A positive spin is only a part of the equation.

    Of course. Watching pressure is a necessary aspect of any reloading.

    >This is a false statement. Target loads are ALWAYS slower in velocity for best accuracy.

    The Greenhill formula is an approximation that was arrived at a long time ago on length of bullet and twist. At the time it was not taking into account that the faster you push a bullet the faster it spins, because at the time there were no "high velocity" rounds. Basically, though, it is true that the CORRECT spin for the length of the bullet is the most accurate. Not necessarily the slowest, but the length of bullets available commercially will PROBABLY be more accurate at slower velocities because they are shorter bullets and at slower velocities they will be spinning slower which is the correct spin for a shorter bullet. I've found that often things don't work out the way you would think. My Hornady 75 grain hollow points are VERY accurate at VERY high velocities and I have no reason why.

    >True, but they make LEAD bullets, not jacketed bullets, although it can be done, it is a very rare exception. Re-swaging a jacketed bullet will not only reform the bullet, but deform it as well, you will not see what it does on the inside where the lead and jacket are separated. Loosening a jacket on a high velocity round can lead to the bullet fragmenting in mid air.

    Barnes "X" bullets do not have a jacket. They are solid copper.

    >If they don't make it, it is for a reason. Performance and safety are the prime reasons. If they don't make it, it is because it is either a non-preformer or the CUP pressures (chamber pressures) do not allow it to be done safely. They will not put an unsafe product out knowingly.

    They don't make it, not because of safety but because of the available twists in .25 caliber rifles and the velocities that those are commonly going.

    >If there was a twist/weight combination that would preform better they would have made it. Manufacturers are always looking for another product to sell. Pushing a heavier bullet faster does not make it stabilize any better, in fact the inverse happens and it will over stabilize and preform worse.

    The problem is that my handloads at much lower pressure than factory loads are going much faster and therefore spinning much faster. Basically with a 1 in 10 twist going about 3200 it's spining about 3400 revolutions per second. This is faster than what the bullet manufacturers are planning. They are just aiming for the average .25 caliber rifle with the average twist at the average velocity having good accuracy.

    >In a VERY round about way. Those are only two of the components that contribute to accuracy. You are not taking into account balistic co-effencency of the bullet, the shape of and the distance of the ogive of the bullet from the base and also to the lands in the chamber, the Bullet "jump", or the pressure spikes that a long bullet will cause when loaded hard into the lands. Ballance point of the bullet, jacket thickness, and bullet coatings. Not to mention neck tension, brass thickness, barrel harmonics, powder and primer burn rates.

    Trust me, I've been taking all that into account for decades.

    >Making one's own bullet and caliber is known as "WILDCATING". Only a seasoned hand loader or gunsmith should attempt deviating from factory and SAMMI standards, and those that do should be very cautious when experimenting in this hobby.

    I've been wildcatting for 3 decades now. I have a record of every load and every shot fired from my .25-06. I would have to go find the book to tell you exactly how many rounds that is, but my records are meticulous.

    >My point exactly. You and I know where to get starting loads for experimenting, but do they?

    I don't know who "they" are, but I wouldn't recommend anyone take up handloading without a mentor. I ran into someone at the gun shop the other day that was asking if it was normal to have to open the bolt with a mallet after every shot. I was frightened for him!

    >I am a professional in the firearms trade, I am a competitive shooter, I am a master reloader and teach reloading. I believe that promoting undocumentable procedures is irresponsible. I would never suggest any methods or charges that I could not find in published manuals that were tested and proven by a manufacturer.

    I was not trying to promote anything.

    >Michael, there are people here on this forum that worship the screen you post to. If you want to wildcat, more power to you, it is a free country, you can take that responsibility into your own hands. You can and will do as you please, I would have it no other way. BUT. Like it or not, it is all too possible that someone would try to do something beyond their abilities simply because their "hero" said that it was ok and that HE does it all the time.

    I never do anything in reloading without careful calculation. The starting load is a difficult enough calculation, and I never change any component without starting over again. I also never increase powder in a large rifle case by more than 1/2 of a grain. I never increase the powder in a pistol case by more than 2/10ths of a grain at a time. I never load past any signs of high pressure. If anyone was looking here for advice on reloading, I certainly wasn't intending to offer any.

    >You obviously have the wrong caliber rifle if it will not preform to your standards with SAMMI specification ammunition.

    I've never purposely loaded anything to exceeed SAMMI specifications. Those specifications do not cover anything like maximum bullet length. (cartridge length, yes)

    >Your words are heavy on this list, I do not fault you for what you do. My concern is only for the sake of safety.

    I'm sorry if anything I said seemed to indicate I was recommending blindly trying unorthodox reloading procedures. I certainly don't recommend trying anything in the realm of reloading without careful calculation and preferably a very qualified mentor.

  14. #34
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    Wildcat cartridges by reloaders is what drives the research by the manufactures today. The surplus of powder from WWII and soldier bringing back German, Swede rifles etc. and the expiriences of the soldiers during the war caused them to come home and innovate. They now had access to the materials do play around and come up with some new ideas. Velocity. The manufactures see the potential and popularity and proceed to market. If you notice the manufactures load specs are always in the middle to bottom of the performance ranges for liabilty reasons.


    I would say the .264 or .7mm mag is the most versitile for NA Game top to bottom. That being said when I rifle hunted it was the .270 win that I used the most. Muledeer, Black bear and Elk. Stats however show that the 300 win mag is the most popular big game rifle sold. A great debate has been raging for many years about velocity and smaller bore vs. retained energy and the big bores. Elmer Keith , Jack Atcheson and others have written volumes on the topic.

  15. #35
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    Hey Coyote, maybe we could try to work out a hunt swap. We could make a video. "Calling Coyotes East&West" wait I think somebody did that already. Keep trying for the spotted kitties. They are going to bring good prices this year. I got 75 bucks for a little VA cat last year.
    Speaking of wilcat cartridges, Bullseye Bill, ever heard of a .240 Gibbs. It's mean groundhog medicine with a 87-grainer clocking about 3700 fps.
    We need to start a whole nother forum here!

  16. #36
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    >We need to start a whole nother forum here!

    I think that is what the tailgater section is for.

    >Speaking of wilcat cartridges, Bullseye Bill, ever heard of a .240 Gibbs.

    There is quite a few Gibbs calibers, I haven't seen that one come through the range yet. Sounds like it would be fun on prarie dogs.

    >It's mean groundhog medicine with a 87-grainer clocking about 3700 fps.

    That should make short work of a good barrel

    Bill

  17. #37
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    >If you notice the manufactures load specs are always in the middle to bottom of the performance ranges for liabilty reasons.

    Especially true of the bullet manufacturers, Hornandy in particular. The old loading manuals were a bit more generious.

    The pitfalls of our legal system.

    I thought it strange a few years ago that the powder manufacturers went the other way. I suppose that because of all the testing and development, they did not mind encouraging us to use copious amounts of their powder.

    Winchester was recomending such high amounts of powder in their charts that I thought it next to crazy on their part.

    But then again they sell rifles too, however you won't see any firearms manufacturer standing behind a warranty if you use reloaded ammunition in their product.

    Oh well...

    Bill

  18. #38
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    MAN IF I GO TO IRAQ I WANT YOU GUYS WITH ME WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DO WITH A MARK-19 40MM MACHINE GRENADE GUN AND A M-16.

  19. #39
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    In my .25-06 I've only shot two boxes of factory ammo and they came with the gun. I had forgotten what kinds of pressure signs factory ammo had until I was shooting with people who were shooting factory. Flat primers, cratered primers and even ruptured primers. And if you chrono them they aren't very fast and they are erratic both in pressure and accuracy. I never load handloads that hot, at least not consistently. If I accidently get a cratered primer, I back off. And still my handloads are much faster.

    I have collected all the reloading data I could ever find in print for both the 6.5 x 55 and the .25-06/.25 Niedner and find some of the loads listed are dangerously high and some are so wimpy I worry about a squib load. Of course the high ones seem to be old manuals. Strange. But then, that's why you always start in the middle and work up or down.

  20. #40
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    >WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DO WITH A MARK-19 40MM MACHINE GRENADE GUN AND A M-16.

    Haven't played with a mark 19, but the most fun I ever had was with a special built AR sniper rifle on praire dogs. The red mist when they vaporize is unreal.

    Are Iraquis brown and furry?



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    Bullseye Bill
    Smack dab in the middle of the country.

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