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  1. #61
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    Dec 2000
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    crown point, NY, USA
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    Well I have no opinion here as I simply don't know. Here is the last info I had. Close to 2 years ago Dee had her bees sent out to europe for analisis (sp??? I can't spell today for some reason). The last info she got back was that the bees match no known bees, but were similar to caucasians. I think I will check with her and see if she's heard anything new.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    I do not have a opinion per se, I'm just saying it's the most likely explanation.

    I do know that when I was a child they said there was no scientific evidence that the city of Troy existed and there was never any such place nor was there a Trojan war. Since then, of course, they have found it.

    When I was a child they said there was no way the Vikings had come to American before Columbus (who by the way never made it here). As more evidence piled up they finally had to reasses that stand. Now it is generally accepted as fact that the Vikings not only came, but settled here.

    The point is, just becuase enough evidence had not been gathered to prove something true, does not make it false, it merely makes it unproven.

    I think there is enough evidence of native bees in North American, to deserve further study.

    Possible explanations for LUS bees:

    1) As, mentioned, Native Bees with some different characteristics than European bees.

    2) Since some thelytoky has been noted in Eurpean stock, selection from Eurpoean stock (by either beekeepers or nature) that has favored thelytoky for survival is a possibility. Or perhaps lack of selection by beekeepers that suppresses thelytoky. (these two are proposed as possibilities in the study by Ericson.)

    3) Sometime in the past some Cape Bees were brought to the North American Continent and cross bred with the feral European bees over hundreds of years and developed into something that had not been anywhere before.

    These all have some possibilities. My thinking is that both 2 and 3 would take longer than the time from the first Europeans bringing bees. But it's hard to say. People have been trying to croosbreed Cape bees and and not succeeded in coming up with a useful expression of thelytoky in them. For this to happen purely by accident over a few hundred years would take a lot of lucky accidents.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama
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    536

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    Michael said: "3) Sometime in the past some Cape Bees were brought to the North American Continent and cross bred with the feral European bees over hundreds of years and developed into something that had not been anywhere before."

    I first want to say that I appreciate your taking the time to answer txbeeguy's questions, Michael. I find this line of discussion fascinating. I don't believe or disbelieve any of this, but it does provide interesting conversation. I wish Dee would come back and jump into this topic again - I enjoy reading her posts too!

    My question to you Michael is this: txbeeguy points out that it is generally accepted as fact that there were no apis m. here prior to the European settlers. Does this apply to both American continents? Is there any information about South America? Is it not possible that some form of apis m. existed in South America? Could the cape bee have been brought to that continent long ago and evolved the thelytoky trait as it moved up the isthmus to what Dee is observing in her bees today? Or is there evidence that indicates this did not happen?

    Just curious about what is and isn't known about South America; it seems to me that much of what is generally accepted as fact applies to N. America and ignores the possibility of S. American apis m. moving up the isthmus.


    ------------------
    Rob Koss

  4. #64
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >I first want to say that I appreciate your taking the time to answer txbeeguy's questions, Michael. I find this line of discussion fascinating. I don't believe or disbelieve any of this, but it does provide interesting conversation. I wish Dee would come back and jump into this topic again - I enjoy reading her posts too!

    That is really my point. I don't intend to or expect to convince anyone that there were Native American bees. I don't know if *I* believe there were. But the possibility is an interesting prospect.

    >My question to you Michael is this: txbeeguy points out that it is generally accepted as fact that there were no apis m. here prior to the European settlers.

    It is generally accepted, but I haven't understood why it is generally accepted with no real evidence one way or the other.

    >Does this apply to both American continents? Is there any information about South America? Is it not possible that some form of apis m. existed in South America?

    I would have to plead ignorance on South America. I haven't really studied the bees there, but as far as I know it's also assumed there weren't any there.

    >Could the cape bee have been brought to that continent long ago and evolved the thelytoky trait as it moved up the isthmus to what Dee is observing in her bees today? Or is there evidence that indicates this did not happen?

    A lot of things could have happened. The assumption that Columbus was the first person from the Eastern hemishere to make it to the Western hemishere has already been disproved. A lot of theories exist on who might have made it to the west. We know that the Phonecians made it around the horn of Africa and there is no reason to believe they didn't make it to the new world. Also, the Irish have had stories of sailors going west to land for centuries before Columbus, but we don't know if they did or did not. It is possible the Phonecians brought bees here and possible some of those came from Africa, but of course it would all be speculation.

    >Just curious about what is and isn't known about South America; it seems to me that much of what is generally accepted as fact applies to N. America and ignores the possibility of S. American apis m. moving up the isthmus.

    Afraid I don't know enough about any native S. American bees and their characteristics.

    TXBeeguy has also brought up the possibility that the Vikings brought bees over and that is also an possible explanation for some of the sightings of "native" bees by early settlers and even for other breeds than the typical "German" bee being here. There really wasn't anywhere in the world the Vikings didn't go.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    McMinnville, TN, USA
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    Just a small corection, I was the one that brought up the vikings and Egyptions.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    mountain home, ar, usa
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    Hillbilly- I saw the same special you did about the Egyptians trading with the pre-Mayans. My understanding was that it was Cocaine that was found in mummy bodies (not nicotine). Just from memory, but your premise is right... only South America could have been the source of cocaine, so there is belief that the pre-Mayans had established trading routes with the Egyptians. (If you know anything about ocean currents it is very feasible). It would make since that they would have obtained honeybees if not already in the Americas. That doesn't mean they didn't die out in the following 4000 years (due to mites, etc.).

  7. #67
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    Nov 2003
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    McMinnville, TN, USA
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    There was a list of substances found. Cocaine thou in small quaninties is found in other plants and is reactive so it is hard to trace in pure form. When they look for Coke in the human body they look for a molecule that contains coke. But the way mummies were made leaves the idea that they probly did use coke since they would have to have used to much other plant material to get that much coke into the body. Another reason they thought it more practical for the coke was that nicotine was also pressent. And it come from a narrower plant family that is all in the Americas. Choacolate, coffee, and cocaine plants are in the same family of plants. Only one of these contains enough coke in its leaves to get you high by chewing the raw leaves. I do not remember what the name of the plant native to Africa that is in the same family but there are some in the wetter areas. But to get that type of concentration that they found in the mummies it would take an extreme amount of folage and thought unlikely. Do you remember the ship they showed that was in one of the pyrimids. They never thought a ship that size existed that early. If memory serves me right it was a 40 footer.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
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    OK I checked with Dee. Apparently the info has still not been released yet, or they simply don't know. I guess there were samples of bees from the amazon basin in south america sent at the same time to test to see if they were africanized. The results of those bees can back a year ago and they were all EHB's.

  9. #69

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    Could not a fossil pre-contact Apis mellifera discover prove prior presense?
    I guess today genetic analysis would be more likely affordable.

    Brian Cady

  10. #70
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    I beleive I've heard of fossils of honey bees on North America but the assumption is that they were extinct when the Europeans got here.

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