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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,142

    Post

    >Now, decades later, Minnesota has "discovered" unlimited brood nest management

    I have some 1800's versions of ABC XYZ of Beeculture that call the third deep a "food chamber" and say that it will "revolutionize beekeeping". [img]smile.gif[/img]

    "There is nothing new under the sun" Solomon.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,959

    Post

    >>despite the obvious and observable fact that it usually fails - of repeatedly cutting out queen cells, does cause the bees stress. Artificial swarming, if carried out at the right time, may cause them less stress, but it often doesn't work either - at least, not consistently.


    No no no. Swarm prevention doesnt usually fail. This manipulation is the reason we are able to get our bees to produce 200lbs on average crops. Instead of 90% of my hives swarming off in the spring, I have reduced it down to 20%, 15% in good years. Howdo you call that failure. Working with bees is alot to do with working with averages...

    My spring work has never involved cutting queen cells. If a beekeeper is cutting queen cells, they dont really know what they are doing.
    Either they are supercedure cells, which leads to a totally different topic, or they are trying to prevent swarming in a colony which has already started swarming, which is hard to stop, especcially by mearly cutting cells. Swarm work should be done before swarming prep by the colony.

    After my spring work, if I find a colony swarming, I rairly interfear with what they are doing. My work didnt work in the spring to prevent it from happening, so I let them continue what they want to do. Usually 15-20% of my hives. There are more factors at work than what I can usually pickup on...
    besides, its a matter of how much work you really can get done in a short season,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,142

    Post

    >If a beekeeper is cutting queen cells, they dont really know what they are doing.

    I second that. [img]smile.gif[/img] It is the most labor intensive and least effective method of swarm control I ever tried.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,959

    Post

    So then, how would we measure stress in a colony?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Perkasie, PA
    Posts
    1,998

    Post

    <So then, how would we measure stress in a colony?>

    An interesting and germane question worthy of it own thread. This is something that I think about frequently. The best that I've come up with is resistence to disease, honey production, and ease of handling, but these all seem like poor measures.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

    Post

    In mammals, hormone levels in the blood can be used to test for stress. The higher the levels of some hormones, the greater the stress the animal is facing. I imagine something similar could be measured scientifically in honey bees, but work like that takes a lot of dedication.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Perkasie, PA
    Posts
    1,998

    Post

    Depends on the mammal, the sampling method and the type of stress your looking at. So far, urine/salivery glucocorticoid (usually cortisol)levels seem to work well, but only on a population basis. Epinephrine is usually useless as the testing process induces acute stress because of the need to draw blood. There has been a bunch or really good work lately looking at brain microdialysis for neurotransmitters, and telometric blood pressure monitoring, but behavioral testing is still the gold standard.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

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    I'm assuming we would be looking at population-level stress indicators. I know, ecologically and evolutionarily, the colony functions as a single entity, but it's still composed of a population of bees.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,959

    Post

    >>resistence to disease, honey production, and ease of handling, but these all seem like poor measures.


    For these are all traits, not in relation to stress.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,959

    Post

    let me refraise that. They are signs, and symtoms of stress, but what I mean is that they can also are expressed as genetic traits and charateristics
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Totnes, Devon, England
    Posts
    1,019

    Post

    I suspect that any attempt to measure stress in a colony is doomed, as the act of assessment will unavoidably cause more stress. This is a well known principle in experimental science - it even has a name, which escapes me right now.

    Surely we can agree that any action or force that causes disturbance to the natural functions of a colony will cause a degree of stress. And we all know how bees tend to behave when they are disturbed beyond their tolerance level. We don't need a computer to count the number of stings!

    In just about all animals, including bees and humans, stress is likely to result in increased occurrence of abnormal behaviour, greater susceptibility to disease and parasites and disturbances to reproductive capacity. All of these things are happening to our bees: QED it is likely that they are stressed. If we can find ways to reduce stressful manipulations and general interference, including chemeical inputs, my guess is that they will respond positively.

    Seems like common sense to me.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  12. #112
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,525

    Post

    Not nice, Buck. This is driving me crazy. There's a word for the dilemma when observing/comducting the experiment affects the outcome of the experiment.

    Help.

    Hawk
    KC0YXI

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Totnes, Devon, England
    Posts
    1,019

    Post

    Heisenberg Principle - I think.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

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