looking for references on brokers. who do you know and/or use and what do you think about them?
pay/non-pay, good/bad locations, personality, etc.
thanks
martin
looking for references on brokers. who do you know and/or use and what do you think about them?
pay/non-pay, good/bad locations, personality, etc.
thanks
martin
I doubt you will get names. You for sure won't from me as I have to deal with those guys.
pay/non pay:
Use a legal contract. All the money when the hives are placed or the normal half when placed and half when pulled.
helps to let the grower see your gun in your briefcase when you open to get out the contract (kidding!)
good/bad locations:
You are going to get the bad locations at first like we all did. Locations are like musical chairs. The bad locations are picky growers wanting a single skid every 100 feet, skids placed in areas without sun (mold on frames), access only by dykes ( driving on a wet narrow dyke knowing your truck will turn over if you slide off will raise the hair on the back of your neck)and THE BAD OR SLOW PAY GROWERS to name a few things about bad locations.
personality:
Only problems I ever had was over driving too fast in a grove. The grower jumped in front of the truck twice trying to get me to slow down. 5 MPH in his large remote grove!
Good thing I was not listening to the radio or talking to my partner or he would have been "roadkill".
I guess the grower wanting to talk for an hour when you are busy is a hassle.
Most growers like to walk up without protective gear to show the beekeeper they are not scared of bees. After a few stings on the face they soon watch from a distance.
I had a dumb ass walk up today while I was feeding skids of bees. I told him I had the bees stirred up and I would meet him in a couple minutes over by a tree about fifty feet away. About that time he got stung on the upper lip and nose. He kept talking and I watched with interest as his eye started watering and his lip started to swell. I turned off my pump and walked away from the hives to talk as I could see he was too stupid to move away!
I can not count how many times farmers and land owners have walked right in among hives opened and the air full of bees! I would think if the beekeeper had on a veil they would think twice!
Bob Harrison
if a beekeeper wanted to find a small farm in california for almond pollination, how would he go about finding one without going through a broker? and how many hives does one need to make it worth the trip and hassle of travling to Cali?
Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info
Chef Isaac.
I am not an expert on almond pollination for sure but speak from experience.
The advertising in the California papers for a contract is sound advice. Going for the first time without a broker has been done but can be risky unless you are careful and do planning.
The opinion of most commercial beekeepers is you need to send at least a semi load to be worthwhile and two is better BUT those were the opinions BEFORE almond fees doubled.
Traveling to California by truck is indeed a hassle! I hate the northern trip especially in winter. Around the Salt Lake is very boring. The beekeepers which have rode with me say " Bob can tell stories all the way to California and never tell the same story twice"
I believe I have led an interesting life to most people.
From my house four days on the road each way. From Florida seven days.
California is a nice place to go in the winter if you live in a cold climate. The fog does take getting used to. I have seen the fog so bad you had to roll down your window at a four way stop to listen for the motor of another motor vehicle before going on.
Bob Harrison
Bob, thanks for the info. i didn't mean to put anyone on the spot. mainly wanted to know if anyone/thing i should avoid(especially nonpayment) even contracts cant always collect. i've had several businesses and been stiffed several times. like one man told me outside the courthouse, "you cant get blood from a turnip". he was right; he had nothing...but i got all of that!
i figured most people wouldn't mind exposing the bad apples, and the good ones would probably appreciate the kudos.
thanks again
martin
ps i check pm's.
Chef Isaac:
IMHO commercial beekeeping is not worth the hassle, but most people are in it because they like it. That being the case then I would suggest you load your truck with as many hives as possible and go for it. The fees are high enough that if you were to bring 60 hives you'll have $8000-$9000. Should pay for your fuel, meals, and hotels, maybe a breakdown too. The reason you go for it is strictly for experience. Whether you gain riches or not is not the point. You get valuable experience and that is priceless. Next time if you go you'll know what you have to do, what to avoid and so on. Remember that every year is different and so are road trips. You'll also be able to gauge if you ever want to do it again or on a larger scale. I always say 1 hive is too many and 1000 is not enough.
I took my hives this year to Alberta, went late after cranberry pollination. I think that I would of been better off financially share cropping like I have in the past, but this season I had the opportunity to rent a building and went for it. No great financial windfall but lot's of experience. Now i've got some yards in the area, names of farmers,so on. Besides next year is the best crop I ever got.
Jean-Marc
Jean-Marc gives good advice! I will add a couple of tips also.
The high almond pollination prices may only last a couple years as the Canada bordor will open in the future from pressure from the trade agreements and the almond growers freeing up around 600,000 hives for almond pollination
( Speedy Bee April 2005 pg.3) .
A reason to not invest too heavy in equipment which will only be used for California almond pollination such as big trucks etc.
Lesson 1 of migratory beekeeping:
If you travel any distance and stack hives lose the metal t tops. The load will shift all over the place! Wood is best for shipment!
Bob Harrison
Should this border ever open up ( I also think it will) then the smart people will team up in a North South alliance. Canadian hives to almonds and U.S. hives for honey production into the Canadian prairies. I think that despite trade agreements it would be difficult for beekeepers to operate on either side of the border. The logistics are the issue. You would need 2 places to work from otherwise you never have your work tools, feed tanks, pumps etc.. This can get costly. As a Canadian beekeeper I've never really worried about American beekeepers coming here. It would be such hassles that most would not bother. On the other hand if a Canadian outfit is willing to share crop with a U.S. outfit than everybody can benefit. The biggest benefit I've seen when taking my bees to the Peace or on the Prairies is the strength that colonies return with. Usually they are very strong or queenless with 5,6,7 frames of pollen and that is not all that bad either. I give the pollen frames to nucs in the spring to get them going. The benefit for the Canadian guy is not having to manage those hives until june20. That is kinda when they have to arrive for the honey flow. Anywhere after Aug. 20 to sept 15 put them back on the truck and goodbye for another 9 months.
Jean-Marc
> Should this border ever open up ( I also
> think it will)
While I am certain that the US almond growers
and would like to see "bees on comb" moving
freely between the US and Canada, there are
a number of factors that would make this
problematic. First, to modify the import
regulations to allow bees on comb from Canada
would be a unjustified show of "favoritism"
towards Canada, if not also granted to all
and sundry with similar biosecurity and
pest/disease conditions.
The opening of the Canadian border to bees on
comb would imply that bees on comb could also
be moved in from at least NZ and Australia,
if not Mexico. Such a move would also imply
that Canada would somehow allow such bees
back INTO Canada after being in the US, which
would force Canada to modify its own import
rules to "be fair" to other trading partners
with similar biosecurity and pest/disease
conditions to that found in the USA.
This would, in effect, be a complete abandonment
of any control over the movement of bees in
any form by the US and Canada, as once one
allows bees on comb, one has admitted that there
is no control at all, save the known cursory
inspections as are done for state-to-state
movement within the USA.
The bureaucrats, the regulators, the protectionists, the fear mongers will somehow have to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I am thinking that the almond growers will be able to help them see the error in their previous ways. The Canadians are probably a bigger problem to convince. Low honey prices sustained over the next year or two will help those who are opposed to an open border to look change their mind. Of course thei will always be some that are opposed to any change.
As far as NZ bringing bees on comb to the U.S., good luck. Freight on Australian 4 pound 2 queen packages to Vancouver, B.C. was about $15 000 CDN per pallet. These bees have to be transhipped in Hong Kong or Singapour. That same pallet of bees going Sydney,Aus to L.A. is a non stop flight so maybe $10 000 U.S. A pallet has roughly 1500 lbs of bees, and probably the same amount of weight for wood packages, syrup and bottles etc. That works out in the 3-4 per pound for freight based on last years prices on cheaper fuel prices. Today freight could be 5/lb so that's $300 for freight for a single at 60 pounds. (assuming the airline wants anything to do with it). I would not worry about any NZ or Aus bees.
Jean-Marc
If US beekeeps can supply the needed hives, I dont believe the border will open.But if it does , the Mexicans have a lot of hives too.The economics of moving hives will of course determine how many will come.But if it works out that way, there will be new opportunities to be had.But I'm not sure if the glimmer of light at the end of the tunnnel isn't an oncoming freight train!
[size="1"][ October 14, 2005, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ][/size]
> I would not worry about any NZ or Aus bees.
I'm not worried about it either, as shipping bees
from the other side of the planet is simply not
economically viable even in package form, so
complete colonies are even less viable.
But we are talking about WTO rules here, and
in the context of WTO rules, "bees on comb"
would mean "no rules, no restrictions".
And once one allows "bees on comb" for ONE
country, one must allow this "no rules" approach
from ALL countries that do not have specific
pests or diseases that are both of concern,
and not found in your country.
By "no rules", I mean that the same lack of
controls would become the default approach to
queens, packages, etc, and that the USA would
have a very hard time explaining why bees from
Texas and Southern California were "ok", as
opposed to bees from Argentina, where AHB is
just as much a problem as in Texas.
So while I don't expect complete hives being
shipped in from NZ and/or Oz, I WOULD expect
complete hives from, say Mexico becoming an
issue as a direct result of allowing such
movement between Canada and the USA.
Canada would be in a similar situation, but
Canada can expect to not see the pressure that
the USA would face, as the Almond pollination
would be the main lure, and is the primary
(perhaps the only) reason that importing bees
seems to make any sense at all to anyone.
Almond pollination is the lure all right.But there is also the old issue of free movement of queens ,packages and nucs into Canada.I wonder what the Mexican hives are doing in Feb and March.Could be they are occupied making honey or pollinating something already?
I'm sure that mexican hives would make their way to California. At today's price who could resist. Maybe a few employees would not return home. I wonder how well AHB travel. With their high tendency to abscond I don't think they would travel well, nor do I think that loading or unloading them would be a picnic. Anybody with experience in these matters?
Jean-Marc
[Maybe a few employees would not return home]
And since they would be willing to work below minimum wage and live in shacks they would be able to undercut our pollination prices and take our business as well as take advantage of Welfare, school and health systems without adding a dime to our tax base!
Sounds like business as usual to me.
I think it would be the height of hypocracy for Canada to open the borders to take advantage of almond pollination after all the years of banning US bee producers from their country due to the dreaded mite which will prevelant in CA.
I sure wouldnÂ’t want Mexican hives in my orchard. Not only would the AHB be difficult to farm around, but I imagine they would be poor almond pollinators as well. Overnight temperatures in CaliforniaÂ’s almond growing areas can drop into the mid 20Â’s during the bloom. The tropical Mexican AHBÂ’s do not cluster well and would be slow to fly after a cold night.
Also could you imagine what the press would have to say once they found out about a huge migration of “killer bees” coming into California from Mexico?
Steve
My friend Jim Fischer always presents the WTO and government red tape side of things. He told me Australian packaages would not be let in because of several points. Hmmm.
I predicted the Australian packages would be allowed to enter. I predict with a *close to the sitation insight* the Canada bordor will open and things will be exactly like they were before the bordor closed.
The need for hives in California almond pollination will open the border. Not for the 2006 season but surely by 2008.
The high advertised price (if you read the fine print the hives need to be 8 frames strong in January to qualify)is still not high enough to excite east Texas and Florida beekeepers. Fuel prices are over three dollars for diesel . Trucking will be between .50 and a dollar a mile higher from Florida. You can get 80 F. weather in January in Florida. The hives are on the truck for 6-7 days each way. Then there is the fire ant problem.
The Usda has relaxed the fire ant policy. Used to be the load could be turned around for a single fire ant. Clint Walker (Texas) said the new policy is 5 ants or above the load is turned around. Clint said he does not know of a large commercial beekeeper in texas which has not had a load turned back. He has had more than once.
Think carefully about what I have said.
The beekeeper has gambled he has no fire ants (they are all over the place in Texas & Florida in bee yards). His trucking is around 14-15 thousand dollars from Florida (round trip), his labor for loading and unloading, netting and the queen/hive loss from the journey.
When shipping from Florida or Texas it is wise to pick up the pallets and look for fire ants, knock of all dirt, and move on to plastic. Then load the next day. I bet I could find those five fire ants on most loads if the load was completely taken off the truck and went through!
I do not see the Mexican bordor opening in the near future for reasons which trump the WTO agreement and understood by Fox & Bush.
More than a single U.S. beekeeper wants the Mexican bordor open! Myself and others want the Mexican bordor kept closed.
Although Canada has around 600,000 hives less than 100,000 would be moved into pollination my Canadian friends tell me. Trucking from eastern Canada most likely will not happen for reasons similar to those by Florida beekeepers!!
Bob Harrison
> My friend Jim Fischer always presents the WTO
> and government red tape side of things. He told
> me Australian packaages would not be let in
> because of several points.
No, I made it clear that, under the WTO, trade
will ALWAYS override biosecurity concerns.
In fact, biosecurity is given mere lip service.
It is a TRADE agreement, not a biosecurity
agreement, so it is designed to compel increased
trade for its own sake.
I was arguing WHY it was a bad idea for the
overall sustainability of beekeeping in the USA
to allow such imports. I was hoping that a few
beekeepers would not externalize the risk of
inadvertently importing yet another exotic pest
or disease on the everyone else merely for their
own short-term profit.
I expected clearer thinking, and I did not get
it from a tiny number of beekeepers.
Well from a bio-security point of view there is no reason for Canadian bees on combs to not come into Cal. or from here to Alberta and BC.I doubt if they have anything we dont have already.But from what I hear its the eastern province beekeeps most opposed to even importing packages let alone bees on combs.How will you convince them? Or can you make an end run around them.No way will hives come here if we cant send something back!!
Loggermike:
I think you've got a pretty good understanding of the Canadian situation. The Eastern provinces generally have much smaller commercial outfits. Many retail their honey because they have access to a higher population density. They also sell bees to smaller guys for fairly big money. So essentially they are more or less happy with the status quo and do not wish to change anything. What is hard to accept is that they can be 60 hours or more by truck from here. I don't see what I want to do could impact them in any way shape or form. These are the same people that were opposed to queens being shipped into Canada.
On the Western side B.C. and Alta. will have many that would want an open border, probably the beekeepers that would like to go to California. Saskatchewan will unlikely want to have an open border, protectionism is alive and well over there. I'm not sure what Manitoba will want.
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