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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
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    63

    Post

    Jim or Michael,

    Would you ever pull full honey supers off while you are maintaining the one empty super? When you are maintaining one empty one, how empty does it need to be?

    When the brood nest expands into the 3 medium supers, what happens after the main honey flow? Does it recede back down into the lower brood boxes, or do you do some manipulation to prepare yourself again for the following season?

    Thank you for spelling out this very interesting idea. Even though I don't own a single bee yet(would I ever, really?) I would like to structure my arriving nucs to to take advantage of this system next year. I am already going to take MB's advice and use five frame deep and medium nuc setups to get me to natural size cells quickly.

    This is great,

    Walid
    The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.<br />..................Albert Einstein

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Lyons, CO
    Posts
    3,046

    Post

    Nice Coyote, thanks!
    Bees, brews and fun
    in Lyons, CO

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    McAlester, OK
    Posts
    101

    Post

    Coyote gave a link to Lacebark Elm (Ulmus parvifolia) which blooms in late Summer and early Fall. Flowering Elm trees in early Spring have no developed leaves when they bloom. Following are links to Elm trees blooming in early Spring.

    Ulmus pumila (Siberian elm)
    http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/her..._flowers01.jpg

    Ulmus alata (Winged Elm)
    http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/36480.html/

    Jim Young

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,341

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    &gt;I wasn't sure on some nor was I sure where "open broodnest" should fall in the listing. Thanks.

    From my previous post: "Walt and I discussed this at length and concluded we think the best time to try this right after the elm bloom or right at the Maple bloom or 2 weeks before the Redbud bloom or two weeks or four weeks before the apple bloom or 6 weeks before the black Locust bloom. NOTE: in theory these are all the same point of seasonal development, I'm just listing all the different blooms in case you know when one of them is to calculate from. I do notice that going by Walt’s chart (in the manuscript) I’m usually about a month behind him. But that seems to be a little more than that in some places. For instance, the Locust bloom here was mid May last year and six weeks before that would be the first of April. Yet at the first of April I’m past the elm and maple blooms. Here, the blooms at the first of April are wild plums and other early fruit trees. You might just look for early fruit trees blooming in your area to key on for opening up the brood nest. Before that there probably isn't any flow coming in to make wax from."

    These are all the same time. I'm just giving references from any bloom Walt had listed to give you, hopefully, a reference that you do know. If all else fails, I'd just go for the first early fruit bloom. Around here that's wild plums and chokecherries, mostly, but there are also a lot of ornemental frut trees in town that bloom around the same time.

    &gt;Slightly off-topic but any good ways to tell when elms bloom?

    They get little green flowers on them before they get leaves. The flowers are easy to spot because until then the trees are bare. Also a good wind will blow some of them off. Well the wind might blow more here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    &gt; I haven't used a ladder yet to check out the buds, but what do the blooms look like, flowers/catkins etc? I'll continue to check out pollen.com for sure.

    I usually go by pollen.com but when you see some green on the elms at all that's the buds of the flowers and they will bloom not too long after that.

    &gt;Elm blossoms.
    &gt;http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/34289/

    I only know the Chinese elms they have around here. The American elms are gone and the rest I haven't seen.

    &gt;Jim or Michael, Would you ever pull full honey supers off while you are maintaining the one empty super? When you are maintaining one empty one, how empty does it need to be?

    I see no problem pulling honey if you like. I tend to try to extract once and I prefer to let the bees keep the ants and wax moths out until I'm ready to extract.

    &gt;When the brood nest expands into the 3 medium supers, what happens after the main honey flow? Does it recede back down into the lower brood boxes, or do you do some manipulation to prepare yourself again for the following season?

    I do not manipulate them. I figure they know what they are doing. Often the just stay at the top all winter and keep moving stores up as they need them. Sometimes they spend all winter at the bottom.

    &gt;Flowering Elm trees in early Spring have no developed leaves when they bloom.

    Exactly.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Elkton, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    288

    Post

    ikkybeer,

    I discussed the caulking with Walt tonight. It is one of the deep, dark secrets that enable his whole system to work...

    No, seriously. Walt doesn't have a sheet metal break or form to get sharp creases at the edges of the top (notice how they are rounded looking). So the sides tend to flare out. Walt uses a staple gun to tack them down. After a while the staples rust and break, or just work themselves out. So he uses the caulk to help stick the edges down and to 'waterproof' the staples.

    Now you know one of his most charished secrets.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Alabama, SW Kentucky
    Posts
    1,914

    Post

    Flash News:

    Red Maple Blooming in Tuscaloosa, AL on Jan 23, 06
    I'm not sure when it started, just noticed it as I was driving the interstate.

    Waya
    WayaCoyote

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennett Square, PA
    Posts
    608

    Post

    And American Elm

    Not sure when it blooms though. I know of some beauties here in SE PA but no healthy mature trees that I know of nearby. All of the beautiful trees over at Ursinus College got hit by blight last year and the year before and they've either died and been taken down or they're on their way. I have a 2yo Valley Forge American Elm in a landscaping pot out back ready to go into a permanent location this spring [img]smile.gif[/img]

    -Pete
    Southeast PA - 7 colonies, local mutts on natural comb, TF
    George Imirie's INDEXED Pink Pages: http://goo.gl/WiZUH3

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,341

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    I am afraid that the weather may throw off the blooms this year. I hope all of us and the trees and the bees can work it out. [img]smile.gif[/img] My bees are a month or two ahead on buildup judging by the size of the clusters.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Alabama, SW Kentucky
    Posts
    1,914

    Post

    reminder
    WayaCoyote

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,341

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    After spending two days until after midnight talking with Walt Wright last week, I have a clearer understanding of what he hopes to find out with this experiment. If you've read his manuscript some of this will be more familar, but basically Walt believes (he would correct me and say he knows) that there is plenty of nectar well before the "main nectar flow" and the bees just have a lull there as they make up their mind to either swarm or go into storage mode. He says that second year colonies are still in establishement mode and what he sees in second year colonies is different than established colonies. First of all they are drawing white wax earlier and they don't have the lull. In other words there is a three or four week longer "nectar flow" for them because they don't have the lull. The issue we want to discover is whether putting empty comb in will set off making white wax early and put them into establishment mode and be able to "cash in" on that three week or so lull.

    I put some empty frames (or bars in the top bar hives) yesterday in the hives that seemed strong enough. Some I didn't becuase I didn't think they were strong enough yet and some I didn't get to yet. Mine are way ahead of schedule right now.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Alabama, SW Kentucky
    Posts
    1,914

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    Michael,
    I couldn't sleep until I found this note in my notebook:
    "Walt mentions that a split can initiate wax production up to a month before the white-wax flow. What does this mean for a split made 5 weeks before the onset of white wax? A whole week without any wax making capabilities? How do the bees know gauge the 4 weeks (surely not by a calendar [img]smile.gif[/img] "

    Can you comment on these questions? I wrote them in November and haven't bothered Walt with them yet.
    Waya


    PS, my hives are second-year, and are definately drawing wax earlier that "white wax". I wish I had known this concept of establishment mode; I would have already added foundation...
    WayaCoyote

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,341

    Post

    &gt;I couldn't sleep until I found this note in my notebook:
    &gt;"Walt mentions that a split can initiate wax production up to a month before the white-wax flow. What does this mean for a split made 5 weeks before the onset of white wax? A whole week without any wax making capabilities? How do the bees know gauge the 4 weeks (surely not by a calendar "

    I'm sure it's an estimate and more controled by the temperature and nectar than by the number of weeks.

    &gt;PS, my hives are second-year, and are definately drawing wax earlier that "white wax". I wish I had known this concept of establishment mode; I would have already added foundation...

    The concept of empty comb is that while Walt usually sees old wax used to draw foundation this early, the bees seem to build white wax in empty frames.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    McAlester, OK
    Posts
    101

    Post

    On 5 March when Bradford Pear trees began blooming, an empty frame with a half-inch strip of foundation was placed within the broodnest. An inspection on 12 March revealed that recycled wax comb was used to draw comb about the size of a silver dollar within the empty frame. There was no evidence of any white comb. The hives will be checked on a weekly basis to determine when white comb is drawn in the empty frames.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,341

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    It's early yet. Maybe they will start some new wax yet. [img]smile.gif[/img] We'll see what mine do.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Post

    In Evansville, Indiana on April 22, 2005 my bees were drawing foundation w/ white wax. May have started a bit sooner [img]smile.gif[/img]

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Madisonville, Texas
    Posts
    438

    Post

    Michael siad "These should be third year or more colonies. First and second year colonies have slightly different timing and goals."

    I wonder, what are the different goals?

    Thanks,
    Craig
    ;) Good Day Craig W.<br /><a href=\"http://www.weaversproduce.mysite.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.weaversproduce.mysite.com</a>

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    &gt;I wonder, what are the different goals?

    According to Walt, establishment. The goal for the first year and often the second year is to get established. According to Wlat, this can cause them to skip the lull before the nectar flow in the second year. What Walt wants to know is if you can get an established (3 years or more) colony to skip the lull by fooling them into believe they are in "establishment" mode, since he believes there is nectar but they are not gathering. The hypothesis is that since drawing white wax that early is ascociated with establishment mode and so is skipping the lull and starting nectar gathering several weeks earlier. Therefore perhaps the bees will believe they are in establishment mode if there is something that will cause them to make white wax earlier. If this hypothesis works, this could extend the nectar flow by several weeks. If not, this manipulation will still keep them from swarming. [img]smile.gif[/img] And perhaps contribute to them building up more quickly.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Madisonville, Texas
    Posts
    438

    Post

    Forgive me for my ignorance but, are you using the word "establish" as we would use the word in "establishing ourselves in society"?

    Thanks,
    Craig
    ;) Good Day Craig W.<br /><a href=\"http://www.weaversproduce.mysite.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.weaversproduce.mysite.com</a>

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennett Square, PA
    Posts
    608

    Post

    Hmmmm... This sounds like an interesting theory, but I'm wondering what could govern the colony's perception of where it stands w/r to its "establishment." The only thing I can think of with enough "history" is the Queen and her pheromones. Unless you consider that the hive or frames or comb could somehow convey the age of a colony to its inhabitants, and these are all influenced by the beekeeper.

    So back to the Queen - if she is replaced each fall, wouldn't this "make" the colony think it was still in "establishment mode" each spring? I wonder if Walt has done any investigation into the impact of the age of the Queen and the display of "establishment mode" behaviour?

    -Pete
    Southeast PA - 7 colonies, local mutts on natural comb, TF
    George Imirie's INDEXED Pink Pages: http://goo.gl/WiZUH3

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,341

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    &gt;Forgive me for my ignorance but, are you using the word "establish" as we would use the word in "establishing ourselves in society"?

    "Establishment" as in a pioneer who is trying to get the field cleared and a house built and a barn built as opposed to an "established" homestead that has all of those things. This is that vigor that beekeepers often refer to a swarm having. That single minded motivation that a swarm has to build comb and get established.

    &gt;Hmmmm... This sounds like an interesting theory, but I'm wondering what could govern the colony's perception of where it stands w/r to its "establishment." The only thing I can think of with enough "history" is the Queen and her pheromones. Unless you consider that the hive or frames or comb could somehow convey the age of a colony to its inhabitants, and these are all influenced by the beekeeper.

    If the making of white wax is an indicator (a current theory) and if putting empty comb in the brood nest can precipitate this (which appears to be the case but it would be nice to get more observations on this) then it would appear to be the structure of the brood nest. Gaps in the comb being a lack of "establishment".

    &gt;So back to the Queen - if she is replaced each fall, wouldn't this "make" the colony think it was still in "establishment mode" each spring?

    Walt says using his methods the bees will supercede her every year anyway, so I would say probably not.

    &gt; I wonder if Walt has done any investigation into the impact of the age of the Queen and the display of "establishment mode" behaviour?

    Perhaps he will respond to that. But I do know he see his superceded right at the swarm cut off when they decide not to swarm.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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