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Thread: oxalic acid

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
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    Bwrangler,
    What type of protective equipment do you use? Would you recomend a resperator with replaceable filters?

    Bill

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
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    Hello Everyone,

    The best advice I can give is to enter 'oxalic acid powder material data safety sheet' in your favorite search engine.

    The types of respirators required depend upon the particulate concentration. I think any respirator with an organic filter would be sufficient for most situations.

    But fuming a hive or two on a windy location would be alot different than fuming 800 of them in a holding yard on a very calm day.

    Everyone must evaluate their own situation.

    Be exta cautious. If you smell or sense the slightest trace of combustion products or even the faintest hint of caustics, it's time to back off.

    It may just be from old habit, but I always charge up my lungs with air before just before heating the evaporator. And maintain
    a very slow exhale during the heating. I never let my air get low enough to require a major inhalation. When I inhale, it is very slow and shallow, testing, by taste and smell, the incoming air all the way.

    If anything happens, like a strap breaking on a mask or a poor fit, it's easy to back out without needing lots of air.

    If a person's out of breath and something happens, it's all too easy to inhale.

    Axtmann, what do you guys do for safety in Germany? Any advice? My experience is limited with treating just a few hives. What do you guys do in a beehouse or a large yard?

    Regards
    Dennis

    [This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited September 19, 2003).]

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Casper, Wy, USA
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    804

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    Hi Coyote,

    In a building full of fumes, a scott airpac would be the ticket. But the volume of oxalic fumes is very small and is usually contained in the hive. It's about like the volume a cigarette smoker would exhale with a deep draw.

    With your H2S training you will have no problem with oxalic. The amount of vapor generated and released for a single hive would be about like the amounts of H2S you were probably exposed to in the simulations during training.

    It's not Plutonium! But it's not finger-licking good motor oil. It can't be used to flavor lolipops or dust the tops of donuts. :> ))

    But it appears to be a highly effective, easily applied, non-contaiminating mite treatment. I think it has great commercial potential. It can be applied safely when nothing else can. All the risk is with the beekeeper and none of it is passed to the honey consumer.

    My fear is that someone will build an evaporator. Buy the chems and not bother reading the MSDS. Fire up the torch without any protection and treat a hive with the dog, children etc standing around watching. Out pops the evaporator and lots of deeply inhaling people run back and forth through the vapor in their excitement. I had not thought of this when I posted my information.

    Or someone builds one and decided to test it inside his garage.

    An evaporator is the essence of simplicity. But it's certianly not a toy and it's not for everyone.

    Beekeepers who have experience with formic will have no problems with oxalic. In many ways oxalic is alot safer. But if formic makes a beekeeper nervous, he should stay away from oxalic.

    Regards
    Dennis

  4. #84
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Danbury,Ct. USA
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    1,966

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    In all of this I see no mention of Oxamite strips. It's a new way to dose the hive similar to the use of other strips. I am trying them this year on some hives. 2 strips for 5 weeks. I may have missed the better (warmer) days, but we'll see. Anyone else tried them? They're at the same website that sells the other equipment. [URL=http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/]
    Dickm

    [This message has been edited by dickm (edited September 30, 2003).]

    [This message has been edited by dickm (edited September 30, 2003).]

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    I think I prefer the vaporizer that Bwrangler came up with. I don't have to open the hive up and dig down to the brood chamber to put the strips in. And I don't have to dig down to the brood chamber to take them out. Just vaporize from the top. I'm lazy.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    393

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    Formic makes me cautious enough to wear a respirator. Havent worked with oxalic so cant say but I would speculate that I would want one too if I was doing any number of hives.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
    Posts
    831

    Smile

    Dickm I had the Oxamite strips in my nucs and used it during the summer with good success. I also had the strips in two swarms and the bees shredded that stuff in almost 4 weeks.
    The Oxamite is for a spring and summer treatment only. It’s a long-term treatment because oxalic acid doesn’t penetrate the closed cells and with the strips you can kill more mites over a longer time.

    Now in fall bees starting and put propolis on the strips instead shredding, remove the strips and save them for the next spring.

    This time of the year you should vaporize the colonies instead using the strips. Control your hives and you can see it, the winter bees are not working on the strips like the summer bees.
    I put Oxamite in my hives again next year in March when bees starting to clean the hives from the winter.


  8. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
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    Last weekend I was going through the last of my hives taking out the empty queen boxes and replacing the frames I removed to make room for the QB's.

    I opened one of the hives and found that they made their own replacement comb for the one PC I had removed. It was beautiful, they made one complete frame sized comb and filled it in seven days. Fresh white comb and the prettiest golden brown honey you had ever seen, it must be goldenrod, perhaps a little soy and alfalfa too.

    I couldn't wait to taste goldenrod honey. I took it home to show the family and announced that I was providing desert that evening.

    Well during the half time of the game, (GO CHIEFS!) I couldn't wait any longer and carved off a nice chunk about 1 x 2 inch square and poped it in my mouth and felt the sweetness ozzing over my taste buds and the pure joy of fresh honey, it was delightful!

    Then the thought crossed my mind. When I requeened, didn't I place an essential oil towel and a grease patty in too? Well it was just one little bite, OH MY GOD, what about the oxalic strip! oh,oh...

    I feel like a canidate for the Darwin award. Oh well, I'm not dead yet, however if you don't hear from me for a while...

    My strips have been in for two weeks and show that they have been chewed on. I will probably take them out after four weeks or the first nice weekend after that and then go to the vaporizer. So far I don't seem to be having much mite drop. I have only seen up to five mites on the trays after a week.

    Bill


  9. #89
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
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    32

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    Hi Fellas....I have been following this thread with considerable interest and have found your posts about oxalic acid rather encouraging.
    I came out of winter with 49 hives and want to increase to at least 90 by the end of the season.At the moment I am using Apistan and have tried FGMO but it is very labour intensive.Oxalic vapour may just be the go....

    Because of my sub-tropical location,I have brood and drones present in my hives 12 mths of the year and don't have a brood free period over the winter.From what I have read this shouldn't be a problem...I hope.

    This being so,would you guys recommend the oxalic vapour as a spring or fall treatment.Any ideas on how many aplications would be needed.

    Thanks in advance....

    jim


  10. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
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    Hi jim
    I use the oxalic vaporizer the whole year, no problem to bees or queens. My trouble is I have lots of lazy beekeepers round here… high reification for my colonies.

    In the brood free time there only two treatments necessary to kill all mites in a hive but when bees have brood you should treat them at least 4 times 7 days apart to reach an whole brood cycle.

    One thing you can do, make a cage from mesh wire round one brood frame and lock the queen in for 20 days enough space so the queen can lay eggs. During this time all bees hatching and there is no way for mites to breed, only in the cage frame where the queen is. After 20 days let the queen go and put the whole comb with closed brood for a day in the freezer. Than let the comb warm up and bring it back into the hive (not the frozen comb). Bees will clean the comb in a few days. You also can melt the dead brood in a solar smelter. It’s better to loose one frame than the whole colony. 90% of the mites sitting in this brood frame and when you release the queen vaporize the colony with oxalic acid and you will kill almost 100% from the mites on the bees.
    Now your bees can live without ANY treatment for at least 11 month when there is no reification from your neighbors.


  11. #91
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    Sep 2003
    Location
    mountain home, ar, usa
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    I am all for trying new methods in beekeeping, but I have a problem with Heilyser Tech(http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln). Their home page shows a photo of "varroa proboscis before oxalic acid treatment" and another photo of "varroa proboscis after oxalic acid treatment". The after photo is missing hairs that are in the first photo- making it appear very effective. The funny thing is, it's the exact SAME photograph, just altered using photo doctoring software. If I were going to go through that much effort to try to trick someone, I would have at least come up with another photograph. Which brings me to my point... can I trust someone who is clearly trying to trick me? Lucky for me, I don't have to worry about it. I use russian bees with screened bottom boards (and no treatments), and for four years haven't lost a hive to mites (lastest 24 hour counts average 2 mite falls per hive).

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >Their home page shows a photo of "varroa proboscis before oxalic acid treatment" and another photo of "varroa proboscis after oxalic acid treatment". The after photo is missing hairs that are in the first photo- making it appear very effective. The funny thing is, it's the exact SAME photograph, just altered using photo doctoring software.

    Now that you mention it, they are identical in every way except the hairs. Exact same angle exact same everything. You can set one on top of the other and everything that is still there registers. Hmmmm.... makes you wonder how honest they are otherwise.

  13. #93
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    Dec 2002
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    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
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    Yes your right but on the second picture is a word “illustration”. What dos it that mean have they no originals photo and tell this with that note? What ever they like to say I got my orders shipping free. Has anybody been cheated?
    Send a message and tell them to change the pictures. I think it is a feeler or an antenna from the mite and not the mouth.

  14. #94
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    May 2002
    Location
    Danbury,Ct. USA
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    Thanks guys for the replies. Axtmann, Am I to understand that the bees have to eat the strips for them to have an effect? I thought they woud just slowly gas off the acid and it went through the air. I guess it needs warm temperatures to work? I fear I'm too late to use them.Do they really need to be over the brood nest? Why not in the top super and let the vapors go down. Bear with me, I haven't got the principle yet.

    Dickm

    Dickm

  15. #95
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    I think the principle of the strips is the same as the principle of the FGMO cords. The bees try to tear them up and in the process get coated with the essential ingrediant. In this case, Oxalic acid.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Hirschbach, Bavaria, Germany
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    643

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    Hi Everyone,
    Yes I'm going to try this without the caps lock key on. (joke from another thread). I want to try to clarify or act as a bridge between cultures. (If I may be so bold!) To try to help the group understand European attitudes toward the environment, having lived here 6 years now. First I want to say Europeans are light years ahead of us when it comes to protecting the environment. They go to great lengths to protect everything from mice to trees to wild flowers. This is a trait I admire because I know my children will see what I see. The water and air are clean and healthy. This is a result of hard laws and tough enforcment, but it is not an inconvience and rights are respected. I give you an example; My grandfather just joked with my wife the other day about being an environment killer for driving with her headlights on during the day time. You are probably saying to yourself "I don't get it" dont feel bad I did not either untill my wife explained to me engines burn more gas operating lights, air conditioners etc. One more example and I'll quit rambeling; While training on an Army base in the feild in the middle of a mock fire fight the German equviliant of a forest ranger kicked us out of the woods because a endangered type of plant grew there and I thought I saw it all!

    Now having said all that....questions.

    1. is there a central place where data which could be helpful to everyone is stored?

    2. Is there an organization that has enough power to lobby on bee keepers behalf for the legalization of the chemicals in the U.S.?

    3. If not, why not form one looks like a good start right here?

    AND NOW I TURN MY CAPS LOCK ON SO I DON'T SCREW UP MY REPORTS!!!!!!!!!

    EVERYONE HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!
    MIKI

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Pomfret, MD, USA
    Posts
    242

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    Here is a description of the vaporizor I built and just used for the first time, using Bwranglers template. I have two hives, both started this past spring. I just saw my first mites on a 3 day sticky board test. The first hive had about 20 mites and the second had about 12. There is minimal nectar flow and brood rearing going on right now in MD, so I decided to treat.

    I modified Bwranglers method slightly. I did not want to drill holes in my supers to accept the vaporizor tube end. So, instead, I took an empty deep, drilled a hole in it, and threaded in a 1/2" male, 3/8" female bushing. This accepted the 3/8" tube, L, and cap and could be screwed on and unscrewed easily.

    I then removed the top cover and inner cover from the hive, placed this empty super contraption on top, replaced the top cover over this, and weighed it down with three bricks. I used paper towels to clog up the entrances. I wore an organic grade gas mask, goggles, bee veil, and latex gloves.

    As I heated it with a torch I looked for wisps of oxalic acid vapor, but saw nothing, so I assume that most of it stayed in the hive and precipitated down between the frames.

    After a two minutes, I stopped heating the end cap and let the hive sit for about 10 minutes before opening the entrances and removing the super gas chamber.

    If anyone has any suggestions on how I might improve this method, please let me know. I put a sticky board in each hive for the treatment and left them there. I will report back on mite counts after 3 days.

    Kai



    [This message has been edited by wishthecuttlefish (edited July 27, 2004).]

  18. #98
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    Sep 2003
    Location
    Eagle Creek, Oregon
    Posts
    289

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    Kai,
    I did it about the same way you did except I made a frame of 1X2 instead of using a super. I have an old sheet of lexan that I use as a cover, I think it helps to be able to see the fog issuing from the vaporizer. If I didn't already have the lexan (or glass) I probably wouldn't worry about it.
    George

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    tulsa, ok usa
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    2,264

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    Here is a web site with an interesting tool for applying oxalic acid. Use http://babelfish.altavista.com/ to translate it to English. http://www.alfranseder.de/

    [This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited July 28, 2004).]

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Hookstown PA USA
    Posts
    581

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    They have a english version. No need to translate. Press the british flag for the english text.

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