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Thread: oxalic acid

  1. #21
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    Barry I don’t know exacts how long the beekeepers in Russia using Oxalic Acid to tread honeybees.
    We have so many immigrants from Russia, in the 90s approx 200 000 each year. I know 2 beekeepers in our club, from Kazakhstan and Voronezsh. Both never had other treatments for the bees than oxalic acid. They didn’t even know that’s others available and treated the bees since 78 and 80.

    >>That's fine for Europe, but it's not acceptable for use in hives in the U.S.

    Do you think beekeepers in your country have a chance for better treatments we have? Wait till all mites are resistant against the drugs your government aloud to use, what’s happen then?? If all beekeepers waiting for the government that means, in one or two year your country has no mites anymore.
    And is also FREE from honeybees !!!
    I hope not



  2. #22
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    This is for loggermike

    >>>Something I have wondered about.I have some brood combs that have been in use for 30 years.The cells are noticeably smaller from cocoon buildup.So are the bees.Do the 4.9 cells get even smaller over time?That would produce some tiny bees!<<<

    My questions: have you found any Varroa in your hives with 4.9 or smaller cells? Have you ever treated your bees against Varroa, if yes, what kind of treatment?
    You know, I’m open to every new and successful method to help the bees.

    Are there bee inspectors in your country?
    We have inspectors and they coming from time to time without appointment. If those guys would find 30 years old brood combs on my bee yard I would receive a fine and had to burn everything. On top of it, I would loose all my honey and the permission to sell honey.

    My oldest combs are not older then 4 years. I hold the frame against the sun; if I can see only a shadow from my hand I meld the combs.

    Look at the hive enters, after one year the white paint is dark from the bees. Bees are not cleaning there feet before they going in the house like you or myself.
    The bees bringing dust / dirt from plants and trees in the hives and after a while this is on all combs and frames.
    Even the cocoons are not clean; do you think the larvas only eat? The Varroa also use a place on the bottom of the cell where they leave the droppings.

    Would you sleep in your bed for 30 years without cleaning? Hmmm I hope not.

    Make a test; bring your honey for a detailed analyses and they can tell you how many pollen, what kind of pollen, how many dirt / **** and what kind in your honey is.
    I know what your answer is; that’s not your god *** business. But think about your customers, they pay for a healthy and clean product from Mother Nature.

  3. #23
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    Wink

    That's fine for Europe, but it's not acceptable for use in hives in the U.S.

    Regards,
    Barry

    OK, Now I'm feeling WAY below the bell curve on the learning scale. Somebody clue me in. Really.
    If I decide that I want to vaporize some vinegar and puff it into my hive, are there some 'Bee Police' out there that are going to jump out of the bushes and tell me what I'm doing is "unacceptable"?
    I mean, I can't afford to be cuffed and hauled away...
    Bill

    P.S. Please forgive me for my flippant tounge in cheek attitude. BUT, I really do have a problem with someone telling me what is and is not acceptable, especially when there is no law or regulation governing what ever it is. I obey the law, work within the regulations, and follow the instructions on the lables. Heck, I even refrain from parting wind in public.
    So what makes an acid that is naturaly found in vegetables (and applied in even smaller amounts) 'unacceptable' to smoke and puff up a beehive?
    I am trying to learn something here so don't give me a 'yes' or 'no' answer, please?

  4. #24
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    There used to be a lot of "Bee police" and they used to burn a lot of hives. Mostly for AFB.

    There are still EPA "police" who fine people for using insectacides improperly. Odds are you won't meet one, but it's possible.

    There are FDA "police" who fine people for using chemicals that can end up in food and confiscate all your honey because they think it might be contaminated.

    Odds are you won't meet one of these either. The smaller the operation you have the less likely.

  5. #25
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    I am familar with EPA policy and procedures, from my occupation.
    But which of these agencys would be involved with a product that has no offical regulation in the application to livestock?
    It doesn't seem to me that the environment is at risk, so nix the EPA.
    Perhaps a gross misuse of the product, like pouring some in your bottle of honey, would bring the ire of the FDA. Surely there would have to be a serious offence to bring about regulation.?
    Maybe a local county or state health department? But that would have to be based on a larger government guideline.
    OK, I am rambling, just searching for answers.
    Thanks Michael,
    Bill

  6. #26
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    Axtmann: Are there bee inspectors in your country?

    Some states have them. Most used to have them when AFB was a big threat. Most no longer have them.

    Axtmann: We have inspectors and they coming from time to time without appointment. If those guys would find 30 years old brood combs on my bee yard I would receive a fine and had to burn everything. On top of it, I would loose all my honey and the permission to sell honey.

    Why? Are there regulations on how long you can keep brood comb in a hive?

    Axtmann: Look at the hive enters, after one year the white paint is dark from the bees. Bees are not cleaning there feet before they going in the house like you or myself.

    They only have propolis and and pollen on them, but yes it stains the combs and the landing board.

    Axtmann: The bees bringing dust / dirt from plants and trees in the hives and after a while this is on all combs and frames.

    If it was only dust and dirt it would not be so permanantly staining on the wood. Dust blows off, dirt easily washes off in the rain. This is propolis and pollen and maybe some dirt encased in propolis. The bees coate everything with it.

    Axtmann: Even the cocoons are not clean; do you think the larvas only eat? The Varroa also use a place on the bottom of the cell where they leave the droppings.

    I'm sure everything leaves droppings, but the bees are constanly cleaning out anything they can pick up and they are constanly polishing everything with antimicrobial propolis. If they didn't bees could not survive. AFB and EFB would have wiped them out ages ago.

    Axtmann: Would you sleep in your bed for 30 years without cleaning? Hmmm I hope not.

    But the bees are constanly cleaning everything. Put some pollen or some sugar in a hive and the houskeepers will haul it all out in a matter of hours. Put a pile of dust in the back, I'm sure the same thing will happen.

    Axtmann: Make a test; bring your honey for a detailed analyses and they can tell you how many pollen, what kind of pollen, how many dirt / **** and what kind in your honey is.

    I'm not sure where that kind of service would be available here.

    Axtmann: I know what your answer is; that’s not your god *** business. But think about your customers, they pay for a healthy and clean product from Mother Nature.

    I don't think bees will make anything except healthy clean product. It's contrary to their methods and contrary to their nature.

    The only contaminates that I've ever seen in honey are from the processing of it, or from contaminates introduced in the hive by the beekeeper. Honestly if the bees did not make enzymes that kill microbes it would be a bad thing. The dirty water the bees collect alone would contaminate everything in the hive. Fortunately for the bees and for us they DO make those enzymes.



  7. #27
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    Well, Michael I think about what you typed. I’m almost speechless.

    Even a beginner who studied a book will find that the propolis and pollen is not on the feet, it’s up on the legs in a little tray, baskets.
    If dirt is moist how can it blow of….. And inside the hives?

    Bees cleaning everything they cover even a dead snail, buck or mouse inside the hive with propolis.
    Propolis is not dissolvable with water you need alcohol, have you ever put a few old empty frames in a drum with boiling water? Try it, I can tell you the water is dark, even black from 5 year old frames. What do you think this black stuff comes from?
    In nature bees leaving old combs and starting new, it’s in there nature to build. What do you think why beekeepers buying thousands and thousands of new wax sheets or making the sheets self?
    Try it, put a super only with new sheets and frames on top of a strong hive during the time they collecting honey. After one day most sheets are ready and have honey.
    Sure bees going on dirty water, but why? Study in the book you will find the answer. There are many thinks in the water like minerals and bees need it. Why eating some animals soil and stuff like this, same thing.
    The dirty water goes in the bee stomach not in the cells or honey. Study the anatomy of the honeybee they have two stomachs, one for food and one for honey. http://crsc.calpoly.edu/crsc/Headric...iles/frame.htm
    I hope I could help you.

  8. #28
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    >>>>>OK, Now I'm feeling WAY below the bell curve on the learning scale. Somebody clue me in. Really.
    If I decide that I want to vaporize some vinegar and puff it into my hive, are there some 'Bee Police' out there that are going to jump out of the bushes and tell me what I'm doing is "unacceptable"?
    I mean, I can't afford to be cuffed and hauled away...
    Bill<<<<<

    I think your bee police don’t even know that this acid is an excellent treatment.

    Read this if your interested, your not the only one with questions. Don’t worry if your not sure what’s going on ask.
    It is a great thing to have this board.

    Discussion about Oxalic Acid
    At the moment, the up and downs of the values remain without explanation. As measurements were close to the limit of detection, unavoidable tolerances of the analysis could be of importance. With regard to the total surface on which one can expect precipitation after the vaporisation of oxalic acid, the samples that were taken are only spot checks.
    An irregular distribution of the precipitation is possible.
    The large scattering of residue levels after the treatment may possibly be explained by a difference in previous contaminations. The apiary “Fischermühle” has treated with oxalic acid for over 10 years.
    To judge the residue data it has to be taken into account that the worst case was examined, the worst situation with the highest possible previous contamination.
    It could be hypothesised that the wood of the frames is a more or less saturated system. Wood therefore only absorbs a part of the applied oxalic acid.
    It is important to mention that the control, consisting of ten samples of non-treated wood of frames, shows a remarkable scattering in the natural content of oxalic acid.
    Up to the forties wood was used for the extraction of oxalic acid, because it naturally contains oxalic acid.
    For the toxicological assessment of the results no comparative data of dermatological examinations are known. But from the Austrian Federal Institute for Health Service written information about oxalic acid concentrations in normal trade products is available.
    Very high amounts of oxalic acid are found in hair cosmetics. According to the information of the above mentioned institute, a maximum concentration of 5 % oxalic acid in hair cosmetics is allowed.
    Compared to that, the residues in the frames with an insignificant amount of a few micrograms is slightly above the limit of detection.

    Oxalic acid µg/cm2
    Residues of oxalic acid on 5 frames of one colony
    In the organic bounds oxalic acid is a naturally occurring component of our nourishment. It can be found in almost every plant we eat and it is a natural component of honey in quantities of 0,02 to 0,2 grams per kilogram. Oxalic acid consists of hydrogen, carbon and
    oxygen (HOOC-COOH).
    Rhubarb becomes sour because of 2,6 – 6,2 grams of oxalic acid that is contained in each kilogram of the fresh plant (Macholz 1989). Some pieces of rhubarb – with the same size as the samples of the wood of the frames – were cut and weighed. The pieces contained on average 1,1 mg oxalic acid per cm2 (calculated on the basis of a content of 4,4 mg/g oxalic acid).
    Therefore, the exposure of a housewife to oxalic acid when cutting rhubarb is ten times higher than the highest value that was measured of the treated frames. In comparison with the average residue of oxalic acid of all examined samples the housewife’s exposure to oxalic acid is 25 times higher then the beekeeper’s.
    Furthermore, it can be assumed that the beekeeper’s hand is not contaminated with the same amount of oxalic acid that was ascertained in the samples. The oxalic acid is not freely
    released on the surface of the wood. The above mentioned values of residues refer to the total amount of oxalic acid that was dissolved from the wood in the laboratory within 24 hours.

    By-products with vaporisation of oxalic acid
    In an independent laboratory it was examined which substances arise from the vaporization of oxalic acid. The arising vapours were sucked
    into a water bath and the water late analysed. As it cannot be assumed that problematic compounds of higher valency arise they searched for oxalic acid, formic acid, formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. The limit of detection for formaldehyde was at 100 micrograms per gram of vaporised oxalic acid; for acetaldehyde at 80 micrograms per gram oxalic acid.
    The amount of formic acid that was found was 1 % of the weight of the vaporised formic acid (10 mg formic acid per gram oxalic acid). Neither formaldehyde nor acetaldehyde were detectable.
    By-products
    Limit of detection µg/g presented oxalic acid Found with 1 g vaporised oxalic acid Formic acid 10 mg
    Formaldehyde 100 none
    Acetaldehyde 80 none
    Furthermore, the amount of oxalic acid that is not destroyed through vaporisation but vaporises and precipitates afterwards was examined. With vaporisation of loose oxalic acid crystals, on average 54 % of the used oxalic acid could be found. With vaporisation of oxalic
    acid in gelatine capsules the rate of finding oxalic acid again was at 34%.
    Rate of finding oxalic acid after vaporisation
    Average Single values
    Loose oxalic acid dehydrate 54 % 50,7 %; 52,3 %, 58,5 %
    Oxalic acid in gelatine capsules 34 % 26,3 %; 35,2 %; 39,2 %
    When heating, about half of the oxalic acid decomposes into harmless carbon dioxide and water. The other half vaporises and forms fine drops and dusts of oxalic acid that precipitates everywhere in the hive. Because of the even distribution of these fine particles the high and
    consistent efficacy against the varroa mite is possible. Moreover, it was examined if the acid that was found after vaporisation was really identical with the presented oxalic acid. With this aim in view the FT/IR spectrum of the white precipitation after vaporisation was determined. With the “fast fourier transformation with infra-red detection”, the so-called Finger-Print-Technique”, it could be guaranteed that the
    acid that was found again was identical with the presented acid.

    It seems legitimate to compare the spray with the vapour leaving the hive. Most of the droplets produced with the spray method have a diameter of a few µm. Mellifera e.V. developed the spray method 4) and performed various tests on it. In the case of the spray
    method, the oxalic acid is dissipated as so many small droplets that a surface area of up to 4.5 m² is produced in a cm3 of oxalic acid mist. Due to the enormous surface area, the small particles quickly dry to create oxalic acid dust and high-percentage acid. In contrast, with
    vaporisation, it can be assumed that the condensed oxalic acid particles do not remain dry, but rather immediately bond with humidity in the air.
    Conclusion
    According to the presented research results we assume that the application of the vaporisation method is justifiable because the necessary safety precautions can easily be kept. User safety is in every respect greater than that offered by internationally used and
    recommended spray methods. In terms of handling of the acid, it is even safer than the trickling method.Radecki has measured the remnance of oxalic acid in the honey from
    12 treated families The remnance in all 12 cases of oxalic acid in
    honey is extremely low and under the limits of detection of 25 mg per Kg honey. The acid is insoluble in wax and cannot be detected in wax.



  9. #29
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    I know some who think the same as Axtmann on the old brood combs.I never could accept this as the bees are constantly cleaning and polishing brood combs.If these were as bad as some think,surely the queens would prefer new combs to lay in.My observations over many years show just the opposite,queens will always lay in the old dark combs before the new combs if given a choice.
    I never extract honey from the brood nest for two reasons.One,that honey belongs to the bees.Two,why take a chance that residues from previous varroa treatments might still be in the comb.
    Before the mites,we would occasionally take some brood nest honey.I dont believe it was any less clean than honey from the supers.I could never detect that it was darker either.
    As for culling combs,my opinion is that it is very uneconomical to cull on the basis of color.
    ---Mike

  10. #30
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    Axtman: What do you think this black stuff comes from?

    Since the "soiling" of combs begins as a yellow color and eventually becomes a brown color and finally a black color I assume that it is from pollen and propolis as I already said.

    Axtman: In nature bees leaving old combs and starting new, it’s in there nature to build.

    Yes, and it's also their nature to prefer the old black combs for brood.

    I have opened many a feral hive full of both new white comb and old black comb and most of the brood is in the old black comb.

    Axtman: Sure bees going on dirty water, but why?

    To put in empty cells to evaporate for cooling. Lot's of dirty water in cells all the time.

    Axtman: The dirty water goes in the bee stomach not in the cells or honey. Yes it goes in cells for cooling.

    Axtman: Study the anatomy of the honeybee they have two stomachs, one for food and one for honey.

    I have been studying bee anatomy for more than thirty years, but thank you for the refresher.

  11. #31
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    Brood Comb:
    Axtman had brought up a concept that I have never heard in 30 years of beekeeping. That dark comb is unsterile or dirty. Axtman, is this a common concept in Germany (Deutschland)?

    Has anyone else heard this concept? I have heard of culling brood comb, but not for these reasons.


    Inspectors:
    Also, I mentioned that some states do and don't have inspectors; I will go further and state that in 30 years of beekeeping the only inspector I've ever met was a retired one who was selling bee equipment. None of my hives have ever been inspected by anyone but me.


    Oxalic Acid:
    Also, on the subject of Oxalic acid: I have no opinion and no experience, and I am all in favor of people trying things to find out. I am only asking and speculating, so please don't anyone take this as an argument.

    If Oxalic acid burns the mandibles off of mites, wouldn't it be very likely that it would burn the hair off of bees and possibly other small external things? After all, the mandibles and the hair and other small protuberances on both mites and bees are just keratin. If it dissolves one, I don’t see why it wouldn’t dissolve the other.

    I am wishing everyone luck with all of their mite treatments. I hope they all succeed beyond our wildest expectations. I like to share with people what I've tried and hear what they have tried and I would never try to tell anyone they have to use my method or they can't use theirs.

  12. #32
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    Brood Comb:
    Axtman had brought up a concept that I have never heard in 30 years of beekeeping. That dark comb is unsterile or dirty. Axtman, is this a common concept in Germany (Deutschland)?
    http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=22407

    Michael I send you a site where you can find a “nice Photo”. A German beekeeper (pig) was trying to sell his combs, frames and everything. The photo was on ebay and other beekeepers send a note to an inspector.
    There is nothing left from the whole pile and I’m sure the combs and frames are not 30 years old!!!!!


  13. #33
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    Axtman, so you are saying it is not only a commonly held belief that black comb is dirty but a governmentally enforced one?

    I'd still like to hear if anyone else has heard or not heard this concept before. I had not. Culling brood comb was always because it gets too much drone, or because the cells were smaller from the cocoons or it got wax moths in it. I have always thought everyone left the bees in charge of sanitation.

  14. #34
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    Well government enforce or not, it is because honey and pollen are food and must be absolute clean.
    It’s same with beer, we have only natural ingredient in our beer, = hop, malt, sugar and water. Compare to the US beer, and brewery are proud of their magic formulas with 100 ingredients and more. Who want drink this here even if they all food great products??
    That’s the reason why we have no permission to use FMGO legal. They found here in tests oil remainder in pollen after one year of fogging.
    In wax also, but that’s is no problem it’s useful for candle. I have no idea what happen if wax get load with oil year after year, beekeeper sell the wax and they making new foundation from it. Other beekeepers buying that wax and have no idea what is in it. Do you think that’s OK? Healthy or not, that’s beside the point.


  15. #35
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    Exclamation

    Hello Bill -

    Wow, I can't keep up with this group. Gone a day or two and one is left in the dust! Something I've been meaning to reply to that is now "way back there."

    you wrote:
    > I am naturaly curious and like to know how things work. I may not ever intend > to use dynamite, but I like to know the how and why of it.
    <snip>
    > I haven't seen any sign that I have varroa. Is it there? probably. I use the
    > perscribed chems. in the beekeeping books as directed, I don't like to,
    > espicialy because I don't like to treat for a problem that might not be there,
    > or retard natures natural evolution.

    No offense intended, but it is this kind of thinking that I have a hard time understanding. If you don't know if there are mites in your hives or not, why do you go ahead and put chemicals into them? This wholesale approach to using chemicals has only made it more difficult for the bees and the other beekeepers to deal with the mites.

    If you were naturally curious, would you not be looking closely at your bees, determining what the mite situation actually is? The beekeeping books are giving you information that comes from the party line for the most part, especially when it comes to pests and diseases and how to deal with them.

    > I will let the most dedicated beat themselves with the terribaly complicated
    > and try only that which I can handle, I am honest with myself and my
    > limitations.

    No matter what method you settle on for dealing with varroa, you must understand what you are doing and know the consequences. To not do so is harmful to the bees, to yourself, and to other beekeepers.

    > I can understand that when someone is four years into their experiment that
    > they don't want to hear that they could have gotten there quicker if they had
    > taken a different route. But it's not always the destination, it's the journey
    > that matters.

    Sorry, but there is NO shortcut to bees living in a chemical and drug free hive where the wax is also clean. IT IS the journey that matters! We have choices as to which journey to take. The short journey is often the one with the greatest negative consequences down the road. I am not sorry for switching journeys 4 years ago. Gone are the days of measuring, mixing, applying, counting, storing, buying, disposing, ... all part of the chemical and drug routine.

    This was written by Allen Dick on BEE-L last week and it applies well here.

    "At the ABF meeting, Laurence Cutts and Tom Rinderer mentioned 'Monster
    Mites'. Apparently, the varroa in Florida are now tolerant to fluvalinate, coumaphos and Amitraz.

    <snip>

    The day of just adding strips and trusting fate are long over. The only
    beekeepers left standing in a few years will either be in very isolated
    areas, or using mite-tolerant stock and testing regularly for mite
    levels."

    We also discussed the issue that oxalic is not an approved substance here in the states, this should give you some concern:

    Bob Harrison wrote on BEE-L:
    "We were told at the ABF convention in K.C. that the FDA has placed honey on
    a three year *watch* list.

    One Kansas City producer has already been called and asked for a jar of his
    honey for testing."

    Regards,
    Barry

    [This message has been edited by Barry (edited January 20, 2003).]

  16. #36
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    No offense intended, but it is this kind of thinking that I have a hard time understanding. If you don't know if there are mites in your hives or not, why do you go ahead and put chemicals into them?

    My reply;
    I have been told by every beekeeper and supply house in this area that wheather or not I see them, they ARE there. I have assumed that my not seeing them ment that I have been succesful with the chemical treatments in reducing their numbers to a very low level.

    Barry;
    This wholesale approach to using chemicals has only made it more difficult for the bees and the other beekeepers to deal with the mites.

    My response;
    Did I not say that I did not like the use of unnatural remedies? I would rather see nature cure our problems rather than playing god ourselves and making mutations (downsizing) of our bees, or worse yet, ruining their natural ability to resist their preditors.

    Barry:
    If you were naturally curious, would you not be looking closely at your bees, determining what the mite situation actually is? The beekeeping books are giving you information that comes from the party line for the most part, especially when it comes to pests and diseases and how to deal with them.


    My response;
    Looking closely requires good eyesight. With the eyesight I have, I see no varroa. I have aquired an optivisor for use this year, perhaps I will still see no mites still. One thing that may make a difference this year is pulling drone larva to examine, I did not know to do that last year. As to reading, I have spent many hours doing just that, and find many contradictions on the same subject. I can only try the most reasonable and find that what works for me.


    Barry;
    No matter what method you settle on for dealing with varroa, you must understand what you are doing and know the consequences. To not do so is harmful to the bees, to yourself, and to other beekeepers.


    Me;
    My point exactly... take responsibility for your own actions.


    Barry;
    Sorry, but there is NO shortcut to bees living in a chemical and drug free hive where the wax is also clean. IT IS the journey that matters! We have choices as to which journey to take. The short journey is often the one with the greatest negative consequences down the road. I am not sorry for switching journeys 4 years ago. Gone are the days of measuring, mixing, applying, counting, storing, buying, disposing, ... all part of the chemical and drug routine.

    Me,
    I am glad we agree on that.


    Barry:
    We also discussed the issue that oxalic is not an approved substance here in the states, this should give you some concern:

    Me;
    Was there any discussion that oxalic was specifically disallowed? And if so by whom?


    Regards,
    Bill

    [This message has been edited by Admin (edited January 21, 2003).]

  17. #37
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    >I would rather see nature cure our problems rather than playing god ourselves and making mutations (downsizing) of our bees, or worse yet, ruining their natural ability to resist their preditors.

    Just so you understand, downsizing is unrelated to genetics. Mutations ARE gentetics. Downsizing is simply letting the bees do what they always did, and make bees the size they did before our interference. No one is trying to change to a genetically smaller bee.


  18. #38
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    Hi Michael -

    > I would rather see nature cure our problems rather than playing god ourselves
    > and making mutations (downsizing) of our bees, or worse yet, ruining their
    > natural ability to resist their preditors.

    You responded to this, as will I.

    If we desire a situation where we stop playing God with our bees and let nature handle its own problem, then we must be committed to returning our bees to what was natural for them, as much as possible, before we started playing God. I'm glad you pointed out the differences between downsizing and mutations. The two are not related. What does treating with chemicals do, if not ruin a bees natural ability to co-exist with its predator in a healthy balance? We become the "determinator" of what the balance should be when we choose chemicals.

    I think one misconception among beekeepers when they think of treating for varroa is an idea or goal to kill or eliminate as close to 100 percent of the mites as possible. This is a very unnatural scenario and one that has no balance. We should desire a situation with our bees that allows for a certain level of mites to co-exist with them. Small cell embraces this attitude and says mites are allowed, we do not seek to do away with them, we provide a balance in the hive that allows the bees to keep the mites in check.

    This dynamic was explained very well by a friend when he wrote:

    "The question is, why hasn't Varroa adapted to the small cells in Apis cerana. The answer is because if it did, then the host would perish and Varroa would perish as well. So, in the Apis cerana/Varroa case we have a classic example of symbiosis, with an equilibrium. I thought that this is what we are trying to do with the small cells in Apis mellifera, to get a kind of equilibrium where the Varroa populations stay at a low level and don't do economic damage to the production colonies. After all we know that we cannot hope to ever rid the colonies of all the Varroa mite, no matter how many chemicals we pour into them."

    My hope is that beekeepers will see the profound limitations of chemicals and that it has been a disservice to the industry to spend so much time and money on the pest instead of focusing on the bee and the whole hive concept.

    Regards,
    Barry

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    I think the misconception on small cell bees here, is that it is a genetic thing. I think there are a lot of people with this misunderstanding.

    Most people's bees are large, not because of genetics, but because of the cell they were raised in. Small cell bees are small because of the cell they were raised in.

    Whether it is the answer to the problem or not, I can't say. I see the logic in it, I've seen the studies, and I've heard of successes. But I won't be preaching it until I've seen it succeed. I'm only on my first regression and am not there yet.

    I was not trying to sell the idea, just correct the "genetic" misconception.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
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    Barry wrote;
    I think one misconception among beekeepers when they think of treating for varroa is an idea or goal to kill or eliminate as close to 100 percent of the mites as possible.

    reply;
    This is exactly what Dr. Pedro R. is trying to do with FGMO.

    Barry;
    This is a very unnatural scenario and one that has no balance. We should desire a situation with our bees that allows for a certain level of mites to co-exist with them.

    Reply;
    Was it unnatural that our bees did not have varroa until just a few years ago? I think that they did just fine without them. When they can be bred to be hygenic enough to clean the varroa out of their hives themselves we will all be better off.
    Bill

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