Walts Method.. I have a question.....

[Chef Isaac]

I am reading over the little booklet that Walt sent me and I have a question on his method.

On page 44, the drawing to the left that represents winter configeration shows him over wintering in a super which he says is full of pllen, a deep which is for the cluster, and two more suppers filled with honey.

So... he is overwintering in 3 supers and a deep??

That doesnt make since to me.

Here, we over winter in two deeps consisting of brood, pollen and honey.

So to do his method, I would need to add on two supers with honey????

[Chef Isaac]

I just got done talking with Walt. He is a nice man who is certainly willing to talk about beekeeping, which is nice.

anyway, he said thaat I can overwinter in two deeps. If all the bees move up to the top of the second deep, than all I have to do is checkerboard. however, in most cases, the bees will move up to the top deep and also the top of the bottom deep to create a broodnest that covers half of each deep. He recomended to add 1 super full of honey before coming into winter and than use that super to checkerboard another super during spring.


any comments?

[MichaelW]

I noticed he seems to experiment with lots of different hive combinations, some having much more hive volume than most beekeepers over winter with. I believe he found the double deep configuration the least desireable with his methods of swarm prevention due to them overwintering between the two.

I'm going to work toward a 3 medium configuration for overwintering in the future. It will work good for things I'm thinking about doing and to do checkerboarding too. Walt seems to usually have a deep in his overwintering configurations.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20C...Sep%202004.pdf

[NW IN Beekeeper]

I know only what I read,

Some studies in Europe have demonstrated that by spliting the colony between two deeps (dispersing the heat in two cells) that single deeps winter better than double deeps.

This was examplified when weak colonies were placed over a double deep strong colony to convect heat. From what I can glean from the study was the lower hive took on more moisture and froze.
In a follow up, a single deep was wintered on its own to avoid killing a stronger underhive. Strangely, the single deeps (hive for hive) survived better than double deeps.
I think that this is a very interesting point because of two issues. I have read on this board where keepers are increasingly suggesting moving to 8-frame hives and mediums. I believe that this will decrease the weight we need to shift around to manipulate our hives, but maybe a situation for disaster for wintering.
First 8-Frames will provide less stores unless multiple bodies are stacked, and even then, will require the bees to migrate from the warm winter cluster to a cold super, which they might refuse and freeze or starve in deep cold. The more frames in each box the more buffering the winter cluster has from the outside walls of the hive. Also more frames likely results in more stores closer to the warm winter cluster, not in a cold adjacent super.
Second, mediums also create the same migration problem, but also cause the winter cluster to divide themselves among the supers to warm the brood. Unwraped medium exclusive hives also have more seams for possible direct winter drafts than deeps (3 mediums usually equal 2 deeps).

Some people are going to say that cold doesn't kill, moisure does, I probably agree, but cold does stress and stress does shorten the life of any organism. Why not implement equipment that stresses our bees less so that they focus on honey, pollen, wax, and brood production instead?

My two cents, take it with a grain of salt...

Jeff

[NW IN Beekeeper]

Just to add another thought,

One should also considering more deeps as physics demonstrates to use that heat rises. With this in mind, a medium foundation is three times as wide as it long. In a deep the foundation is almost twist as wide as long. What the resulting point is, a Deep has more verticle adjacent brood than a medium and therefore the brood is easier maintained at the proper developing temperature.
One should also note that a double deep verses a triple medium also has less air space interupting the broad pattern. This just reinforces the idea that deeps logically place less winter stress on bees than mediums.

[drobbins]

NW,

I read one of Walt's paper's where he was discussing the problem of the gaps between the boxes and the problems they create for the bee's while wintering.
My solution is I'm building a couple of what MB call's "long hives", put the brood nest all in one cavity just like ole ma nature does it (3 mediums side by side)
I'm also making provisions to super it for excess honey production.
I realize this may not make sense for everybody but it does to me.

Dave

[edit]
oh yea, since heat rises, it would be nice not to have those gaps between the frames to let it escape
to paraphrase my wife in winter
"shut the door, it's cold out there" [img]smile.gif[/img]

[NW IN Beekeeper]

Dave

Sounds great! I've seen, maybe even on MB's page where someone had an "urban condo" where the lower box was a double wide deep with single deep in the middle (also had to have custom side covers for the 5 frames on each side not covered by the upper deep, at the time I wonder just what the heck people were thinking, but now I perfectly understand that it was function not fashion.

I've got a funny feeling that this winter isn't going to be so easy. You know how nature has those little hints, well the trees around here are throwing nuts like I've never seen. I suppose Mrs. Nature isn't expecting a few trees to make it through the winter. If its rough for trees, can't be good for fragile bees either.

But best of luck and I hope the fall finishes out well for you and that winter is as bearable as possible! With any luck I'll be building plenty of hives and plenty of scraps to heat my house - god know gas won't be affordable.

[BerkeyDavid]

I overwintered in 4 mediums last year (first year). All 3 hives made it through. This spring I checkerboarded using Walts method, basically moving the brood nest to the bottom medium, and checkerboarding the honey that was left with drawn comb, then keeping lots of supers of empty comb above (always keeping 2 empty supers on). I harvested twice, end of July and last week. averaged 150 pounds per hive. The surprising thing is that my Kona Queen hive had the biggest first harvest but the smallest second. They had chimneyed up to the 7th medium super with the brood nest. Still had lots of capped brood. I have noticed no problem with them moving from box to box vertically. The Italians were pretty consistent. I ran SBB open all winter. Did not wrap the hives but used straw bales to break the wind. Treated with OA in the fall. Plan to do the same this year, and maybe start to regress to Small Cell next spring. Not sure what affect the small cell would have on Walt's methodology. (would they run up to the larger drawn comb?)

[Michael Bush]

>I have read on this board where keepers are increasingly suggesting moving to 8-frame hives and mediums. I believe that this will decrease the weight we need to shift around to manipulate our hives, but maybe a situation for disaster for wintering.

I have overwintered many 8 frame medium hives and many 10 frame medium hives and many double deep hives. With a strong cluster and plenty of stores they all do well, but studies have shown the mediums overwinter better, supposedely because of better communication because the cluster doesn't lose some bees stuck on the other side of a frame because they are more likely to be able to get back to the next frame if they need to because of the gap between the boxes.

Picture what a cluster is and you realize there are solid walls of comb between them and no route to the next comb other than crawling around the end bars, the top bar or the bottom bar. If that's too far they get stuck in the cold when the cluster contracts in the cold. When the cluster spans the gap between the boxes then the cluster can contract and expand quickly and easily even in very cold weather.

With the 10 frame boxes the bees usually go straight to the top and leave the stores in the outside frames. If the weather doesn't warm up enough for long enough (and often enough) to rearrange stores this is still there in the spring. Both I, and another Nebraska beekeeper I know of have concluded they overwinter better in 8 frame boxes because they are more likely to go in the right direction (up) and not get sidetracked wondering around in the box. Also having a smaller width box they seem to stay warmer with less volume. The reflected heat from the walls seems to be more useful than the heat sink of cold honey to keeping them warm.

>First 8-Frames will provide less stores unless multiple bodies are stacked

I wouldn't consider not stacking up multiple bodies. I've only used a single deep with a medium to small cluster but never on a strong cluster. So I always have a stack of boxes. But there are really not less stores when they usually leave the outside frames behind anyway. It's just that the stores that are there are available stores.

> and even then, will require the bees to migrate from the warm winter cluster to a cold super, which they might refuse and freeze or starve in deep cold.

I've had bees in multiple boxes (with rare exceptions) ALL the time I've kept bees, including the panhandle of Nebraska and the mountains of Wyoming. They bees have never frozen or starved because the refused to move up to the next box. They move up quite early actually and the cluster usually spans one if not two gaps in the boxes. The gaps are your friend. They allow the cluster to expand and contract across to the next frame easily.

>The more frames in each box the more buffering the winter cluster has from the outside walls of the hive.

And the more heat sink of honey to absorb all of their body heat. I have not found it to work out that way. You could just butt all the hives up against each other if that's your issue.

>Also more frames likely results in more stores closer to the warm winter cluster, not in a cold adjacent super.

I find a limited direction to go is much more useful than stores off in some corner. Both the horizontal mediums and the eight frame vertical mediums do better than the double wide deeps or the double ten frame deeps or the eight frame deeps. In other words a skinnier dirrectional space has proven more "winterable" than a more cubic space. I had one hive in a double wide Dadant Deep which would be the ultimate by your theory of all one box with lots of combs to protect you from the outside. It was the only strong hive that didn't make it through last winter.

>Second, mediums also create the same migration problem, but also cause the winter cluster to divide themselves among the supers to warm the brood.

I have not seen this to be a problem at all. They don't divide the brood between two boxes, the put it all in the top box. The cluster is often between two boxes but this allows better movement and communication since there isn't a solid wall of comb preventing a group of bees on the outside comb from moving over when the cluster contracts. When running two deeps I often saw a small group of bees that froze when they got stuck on the other side of the outside of the cluster and the cluster contracted in a bitter cold snap. I have never seen this with mediums.

>Unwraped medium exclusive hives also have more seams for possible direct winter drafts than deeps (3 mediums usually equal 2 deeps).

Have you ever seen propolis? There are no drafts unless the bees want them. I have never wrapped hives. I have tried wrappping nucs without much success.

I have already been doing what you suggest may be a bad idea (eight frame boxes and all mediums) and have had better wintering success than with either one or two ten frame deeps for winter. I had all my deeps cut down a couple of winters ago. I will have ALL of my 10 frame boxes cut down to eight frames soon and already have all my hives in eight frame medium boxes except a few new deeps I inherited. I hope to have them cut down soon.

Trying to overwinter nucs has taught me a lot about overwintering. I'm concluding more and more than too much space is not good. I'm also concluding that condensation is the primary problem of overwintering. It's just much more obvious with nucs than with a strong hive. I'm also convinced that too much leeway to move around is a bad thing. The bees should have only one direction to go and that should be to more stores. If a stack of five frame medium nucs wouldn't blow over I might try overwintering a strong hive in a stack of them.

In summary, my experience is that everything you are worried about being a disadvantage to wintering is an advantage. After 31 years of experimenting I've gone to eight frame medium boxes and long hives.

I'm overwintering in an area where we had about 2 weeks of -20 F last winter and at least one night of -28 F. I've seen snow on occasion in mid October and on occasion on May 1st.

Most of my losses occur on those -28 F dips and they get stuck in one place and starve. This seems to happen less with mediums and less with eight frame boxes and less with the long hives.

I've had many theories over the years and the bees have disproved most of them. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[MichaelW]

BerkeyDavid, 150 pounds sounds pretty darn good! I'm thinking natural sized cells for everything will work better than small cell foundation with Walts method as the bees will move up. I don't have lots of stored comb so I'm kind of starting from scratch anyway.

Interesting conversation on overwintering.

Michael B,
BWrangler talks some about the bees tendancy to work horizontally and then vertically in top bars on his website.
(can't find the link right now but I'll look for it, hopefull I'm not making this up [img]smile.gif[/img] )
Do you super your long hives to deal with the bees wanting to work vertically, or is it more to make honey harvesting more convienient?

[Michael Bush]

>Do you super your long hives to deal with the bees wanting to work vertically

Only when they run out of room.

>or is it more to make honey harvesting more convienient?

No, just to make more room and save me having to harvest until the end of the season.

I made the mistake of leaving a super on once on a really booming horizontal hive. The bees moved up into the super and starved with 20 frames of honey left in the bottom long box. You should only give the bees one way to go. To stores.

[BerkeyDavid]

Good comments as always Michael, I hadn't considered the value of mediums permitting them to move to stores more easily without breaking cluster.

[RicDuck]

In this link, http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20C...ep%202004.pdf, Walt suggests installing a suber below the brood nest. Is it too late to do this now? Who has had success with this approach?

[RicDuck]

super not suber

[MichaelW]

Link didn't work for me, RicDuck.

[RicDuck]

Try this: http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20C...Sep%202004.pdf

[Robert Hawkins]

Duckman, I don't know anyone that's tried it and I don't think it makes much difference in Mo. the goal is to get them to keep pollen right under the cluster. Y'all don't really need clusters the way we yanks do.

I'm bet money your hives get a warm enough day to break cluster at least once a week. They ain't gonna starve out looking for food. Your clusters don't have to last from September to June.

Let us know how it works for you.

Hawk

[MichaelW]

I have one hive I'm going to over winter similar to that. Its (starting from the top) a medium w/honey > deep w/brood > medium w/pollen. Was going to spread the extra box of pollen around to other hives, but decided to try it this way after reading the article. I'll try and remember to post what happens with it.

Originally, the hive was Deep w/brood > medium w/pollen > medium w/honey. I'm not sure if they built their hive this way or if I switched things up earlier. Yet another reason I'm starting to keep notes.