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  1. #1

    Sad

    Clues, anyone?
    Had weird stuff happening to all three of my hives and would love some insight.
    Last week early one morning we noticed on Hive 1 that the whole outside looked like it had been sprayed with tan spray paint...it was smooth and even and had the appearance of oozing out of the seams of the supers...when we went in, we found all the honey was "bad", no queen and lots of hive beetle larvae...my guess on that one was it got taken over by the hive beetles before we noticed it - however, what was the stuff on the outside? It has been suggested to me that it is dysentary from Nosema, but when I had seen that a couple of years ago,(I think) the "color" on the outside looked more like "spatters" than smooth and even all over...we burned that hive.
    Earlier in the week we went in Hives 2 and 3, to put in bee escapes in hopes to take off honey and treat just in case these were prone to the same fate as #1. The supers were full of honey and hives looked healthy. I had never used a bee escape before, but borrowed some and put them in the inner cover, supers on top then the outer cover. A day and a half later, went to take honey off:
    Hive #2: All the honey eaten out of 3 supers that were FULL...hundreds/thousands of dead bees laying on top of the inner cover (that had the bee escape)...also, dead bees on bottom board and TONS of mature pupa laying outside the hive on the ground...what killed the adults, and why are they removing all of the pupae?
    We took the supers off, started disease treatment, they are still moving dead bees and pupa out of the hive but still some healthy bees in that one.
    Hive #3:
    No bees laying on inner cover where we had the bee escape, all of the honey not eaten, but hundreds of dead bees laying in front of the hive on the ground...this hive seems healthier/more active than #2.
    I am 99% sure I put the bee escapes in correctly, but if I didn't why did the bees above it die in one hive but not the other?
    Why are they removing pupa? Could heavy spraying for mosquitos in our area have anything to do with it?
    Please someone give me feedback before I lose them all!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >Last week early one morning we noticed on Hive 1 that the whole outside looked like it had been sprayed with tan spray paint...it was smooth and even and had the appearance of oozing out of the seams of the supers...when we went in, we found all the honey was "bad", no queen and lots of hive beetle larvae...

    Is the "tan spray paint" effect opaque? Transparent? Could it be spoiled honey? Propolis? Or just lots of bees haning on the outside making bee tracks? I'm afraid I have no actual experience with SHB.

    >my guess on that one was it got taken over by the hive beetles before we noticed it - however, what was the stuff on the outside? It has been suggested to me that it is dysentary from Nosema, but when I had seen that a couple of years ago,(I think) the "color" on the outside looked more like "spatters" than smooth and even all over...

    Yes, Nosema would be spatters, usually yellow to yellowish brown in color and opaque, like someone splatterd flat yellow paint on the hive..

    >we burned that hive.

    A bit drastic isn't it? SHB won't "infect" the hive, they just "infest" the hive.

    >Earlier in the week we went in Hives 2 and 3, to put in bee escapes in hopes to take off honey and treat just in case these were prone to the same fate as #1. The supers were full of honey and hives looked healthy. I had never used a bee escape before, but borrowed some and put them in the inner cover, supers on top then the outer cover. A day and a half later, went to take honey off:
    Hive #2: All the honey eaten out of 3 supers that were FULL...hundreds/thousands of dead bees laying on top of the inner cover (that had the bee escape)...
    Was the bee escape on the right direction? If it's on the wrong way then bees will get into the super but not out. Was there a top opening? If there was then a robbing franzy would ensue because the bees that live there left (via the escape) and other bees discovered it unguarded. Is there a notch on the inner cover? A crack big enough for a bee to get in?

    >also, dead bees on bottom board and TONS of mature pupa laying outside the hive on the ground...what killed the adults, and why are they removing all of the pupae?

    Was there any brood in the supers at all?

    >We took the supers off, started disease treatment, they are still moving dead bees and pupa out of the hive but still some healthy bees in that one.

    There is no "Disease" I know of, that's going to cause healthy looking pupa to die. What diseases are you treating for now?

    >I am 99% sure I put the bee escapes in correctly

    Even corectly, the kind of escape that goes in the inner cover often fails for a number of reasons. I don't use them anymore.

    > but if I didn't why did the bees above it die in one hive but not the other?

    A robbing frenzy in one and not the other because of a hole somewhere (notched inner cover, knot hole, rotten corner, bad fitting cover... ?

    >Why are they removing pupa? Could heavy spraying for mosquitos in our area have anything to do with it?

    Well, heavy spraying for mosquitoes usally causes heavy bee losses if they spray too early in the day. I have lost many bees this way.

  3. #3

    Post

    The tan colored stuff was opaque...not bees, it looked like light tan spray paint...maybe could have been "bad" honey, butnot sure how it could have gotten on the outside of the hive? I've had hive beetles before, but never saw anything like that. I think that propolis would have been sticky... this was thin, a light covering over much of the boxes...
    Decided to burn the boxes, because between the honey that the hive beetles had made sour, the hive beetle larvae all in the boxes, the mess that was inside from all the grossness, we didn't think that it would ever be clean enough to use again, or maybe it would have taken more to get that nastiness out than we wanted to do. By the way, how do most people disinfect equipment? A light Clorox solution?
    You may be right about robbing or a crack, etc...if I did indeed put the bee escape in wrong, why would they have all died so quickly? They had plenty of food!
    There was some capped brood in the brood box but none in the supers. The day we put escapes on they were AGITATED! However, yesterday when we took the boxes off, they were so calm...we went in about the same time of day, wondering what the huge difference was.
    I did not see any larvae or eggs when I went in yesterday, but did see capped brood.
    I put check mite in, terramycin and Fumidil B...thought that would take care of Hive Beetles, Varroa, Nosema and it slips my mind what terramycin is used for -
    If it is not a disease that makes them remove pupa, what would? They are still white but already have the eyes...I picked some up off the pupa off the ground and tried to look at it closely and it looks like their tongues are sticking out. Does that mean anything, or is that how they form?
    On my question about why the bees died in one hive on top of the inner cover and not another one, you mentioned the robbing again..what does the robbing have to do with so many bees dying at one time and all dead on top of the inner cover under the honey supers?
    Thank you so much for your help.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >The tan colored stuff was opaque...not bees, it looked like light tan spray paint...maybe could have been "bad" honey, butnot sure how it could have gotten on the outside of the hive?

    I've never seen SHB but I wouldn't expect honey to be opaque. I've seen a coating from bees hanging on the outside like the coloring that accumulates on comb as it turns from white to yellow.

    >I've had hive beetles before, but never saw anything like that. I think that propolis would have been sticky... this was thin, a light covering over much of the boxes...

    I've never seen anything like that.

    >Decided to burn the boxes, because between the honey that the hive beetles had made sour, the hive beetle larvae all in the boxes, the mess that was inside from all the grossness, we didn't think that it would ever be clean enough to use again, or maybe it would have taken more to get that nastiness out than we wanted to do. By the way, how do most people disinfect equipment? A light Clorox solution?

    What are you disinfecting it for? SHB? Yeast and being more diluted is what makes honey spoil. It won't spoil if it's not diluted that much. But a lye solution is the most common method of disinfecting a hive. But be very careful with lye it will burn holes in your skin and your clothes. The only thing people normally burn equipment for is AFB.

    >You may be right about robbing or a crack, etc...if I did indeed put the bee escape in wrong, why would they have all died so quickly?

    They probably don't have any ventilation and they get in a panic, like when they try to get out of your window.

    >They had plenty of food!

    True.

    >There was some capped brood in the brood box but none in the supers. The day we put escapes on they were AGITATED!

    Maybe they were already being robbed.

    >However, yesterday when we took the boxes off, they were so calm...we went in about the same time of day, wondering what the huge difference was.

    Sometimes it's just the weather.

    >I did not see any larvae or eggs when I went in yesterday, but did see capped brood.
    I put check mite in

    But you don't have any indication of mites. and to kill the SHB you'd need to put the checkmite in the traps.

    >terramycin

    nor any indication of AFB

    >and Fumidil B

    I doubt that the stuff on the front is feces if it's that solid and not splattered, so I'd say there's no indication of Nosema.

    >...thought that would take care of Hive Beetles, Varroa, Nosema and it slips my mind what terramycin is used for -

    AFB

    >If it is not a disease that makes them remove pupa, what would?

    Winter coming on. Mites in the brood.

    Not AFB. Not Noseam.

    >They are still white but already have the eyes...I picked some up off the pupa off the ground and tried to look at it closely and it looks like their tongues are sticking out.

    Purple eyed pupa chewed out is usually the bees taking care of the mites. Most small cell people consider it a good sign because the bees are taking care of it.

    >Does that mean anything, or is that how they form?

    Yes it's how they form.

    >On my question about why the bees died in one hive on top of the inner cover and not another one, you mentioned the robbing again..what does the robbing have to do with so many bees dying at one time and all dead on top of the inner cover under the honey supers?

    Well, first once the escape is clogged you have no ventilation and no way to escape. So you only have to kill a few bees before no more can get out. Which is why I don't like the escapes that go in the inner cover. I use the triangular ones that are a whole escape board.

    Second, if some robbing occurs (which I assume because the honey is gone and those bees wouldn't have eaten it all) fighting occurs and this kills some bees. Now you have lots of bees getting in and fighting with the bees that are there. If you get more than one hive robbing the same hive they can get into fights too. Did you check to make sure those boxes were beeproof at the time? No notch on the inner cover with the top slid forward etc.?

    >Thank you so much for your help.

    It's difficult to acertain for sure without seeing the situation. I hope it helps some.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
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    1,015

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    I have never seen a hove coated as you said but on the others you might have bald-faced hornets atacking. They kill and eat 1/2 of the bee and also try to carry off the larva to their nest to feed theit larva. The bald-faced hornets are starting to attack my hives this last week. I have seen 20 hornets almost clean out a strong hive in 4 to 5 hours. Their calling card is usuall many bee parts on the landing board allong with many larger larva that they could not carry away.
    Clint

    ------------------
    Clinton Bemrose
    just South of Lansing Michigan

  6. #6

    Post

    Micheal,
    Since fall was coming on anyway, I thought it would be smart to go ahead and do all the treatments I would normally do a month later since I was having problems and not sure what all was going on. Do you think I shouldn't have treated this early?
    I was really treating for SHB with the Check Mite, but what do you mean use traps? I am not familiar with that...I've always just stapled the CheckMite to the cardboard and put it on the bottom board.

    I thought you were referring to what I was seeing as actual bees on the outside of the hive, which I knew it was not - but you are saying that the bees can leave a film of some sort after they have gone back in?
    If they are getting rid of mites on the pupa, which would that be, varroa or tracheal?
    On another topic, we used to put grease patties on all year for tracheal mites, but it seems I have heard lately that is not recommended anymore...is that accurate?
    Thanks also Clinton for the info about the hornets...I will be aware of that from now on and look for those particular signs.
    You all are GREAT help!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >Since fall was coming on anyway, I thought it would be smart to go ahead and do all the treatments I would normally do a month later since I was having problems and not sure what all was going on. Do you think I shouldn't have treated this early?

    I don't believe in treating at all. But at least I wouldn't treat something you don't have. I wouldn't treat for mites unless you have a high mite count.

    In 30 years of keeping bees, I've never used Fumidil or menthol or Checkmite. I haven't used Terramycin for 28, and only used it at first because of the horror stories about AFB. I used Apistan three times and it failed totally on one of those. I have used FGMO fog and Oxalic acid vapor with good luck, but mostly I have small cell bees.

    But if I didn't have small cell bees, I still wouldn't treat anything I didn't have.

    >I was really treating for SHB with the Check Mite, but what do you mean use traps?

    >I am not familiar with that...I've always just stapled the CheckMite to the cardboard and put it on the bottom board.

    Thats what I meant. It is the SHB control method with Checkmite.
    http://www.beeequipment.com/search.asp

    Search for product code 482

    >I thought you were referring to what I was seeing as actual bees on the outside of the hive, which I knew it was not - but you are saying that the bees can leave a film of some sort after they have gone back in?

    Yes. They track some mixture of pollen and wax that gives a yellow or brown look to the comb as they walk on it too. SHB often causes them to hang outside instead of inside.

    >If they are getting rid of mites on the pupa, which would that be, varroa or tracheal?

    Varroa. Tracheal mites don't reproduce on the pupa.

    >On another topic, we used to put grease patties on all year for tracheal mites, but it seems I have heard lately that is not recommended anymore...is that accurate?

    Grease patties have been observed to attract small hive beetles.

    FGMO fog will kill the tracheal mites without the attraction. But good breeding or small cell will also eliminate them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    IMO treating bees for things they don't have is like you taking antibiotics everyday to keep from getting sick. IMPOV it's a bad idea.

    Obviously you DO have SHB. I don't have any experience with them, but people have noted that the bees fight them better with the hives in full sun. Also there are traps available from Dadant that are a bottom board kind of thing. I wish I knew what was a good thing to use against them.

    One idea someone had was to make sure there are anthils under the hive and have the hive stand so it's in oil cans and ant proof. That way the larvae will fall on the ground and get eaten by the ants. I wonder if it would work?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Columbia, South Carolina USA
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    "That way the larvae will fall on the ground and get eaten by the ants. I wonder if it would work?"

    I have been told that it depends on the ants. Round here we have fire ants. I have seen them eat SHB larvae - I fed them some. WEG. Voraceous little ants. I have come to appreciate them in this particular circumstance.

    We also have heavy clay soil so the larvae cannot get buried very quickly. This may help I am told. So far I have never had a bad expereince with SHB (knocking wood) but I also keep the hives as strong as possible and squish the little buggers whenever I see them.

    Keith

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