FoundationLESS frames

[Dave W]

Greetings . . .

"Only dumb questions are ones not asked", I hope this is true [img]smile.gif[/img]

Will bees draw frames that are WIRED?

[Michael Bush]

They will draw them. I haven't done them wired. The closest I've come to doing this is a 1/16" rod hroizontally in the middle of a Dadant Deep. They connected it well enough. Dee Lusby says foundationless works better with vertical wires because they can follow the wire down instead of getting a ways down and the wire may, or may not, land in the center depending on how level the hive is and how well the frames are straight in the hive. I think an "X" or a "W" would have some of the best of both worlds since they can follow it down and you get some cross bracing strength. I haven't found it necessary on mediums. But the Dadant deep combs were a bit wobbly so I put in the horizontal rod to help with that. I suppose a verticl one would have worked but the holes were already there for the horizontal so I tried it and it worked well enough. Maybe regular wire would work just as well as the rod.

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/DadantDeep1.jpg

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...nlessDrawn.JPG

[ScadsOBees]

Here are some other conversations about it...

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=001825#000000
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=002229#000005
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=001659#000000

I plan on trying it with horizonally 4-wire deeps with a starter strip, so I hope it works. I would imagine that if the X and the horizontal rod works fine that they wouldn't have much trouble with the wires or strings. (that is easy to say, never having tried it!)

-rick

[Dave W]

MrBEE:

Many times you have described "starter strips" and how they are used. Once or maybe twice, you have "tossed in" a comment about "side guides", please explain.

Thank you.

[Michael Bush]

Explain starter strips or side guides?

"Comb guide" is a term invented, as far as I know by Rev. L.L. Langstroth. He used the term and put them on the top and sides on his original frames (see the original book or a reprint of the original "Hive and the Honey Bee" by Langstroth http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books )

His guides were a triangle shaped piece of wood on the bottom of the top bar and on the end bars.

A side guide such as this encourages the attachment of the comb to the end bars of the frame. The bees will do it anyway eventually, but it will speed the process. You can also put one on the bottom.

The Dadant deep in the picture link above has side guides on it.

I've only botherd to put them on the Dadant deep because the comb is so large and heavy and it needs attachments sooner than the bees seem inclined to build them. It probably woulnd't need them if I wasn't picking up the frame.

[Ross]

On the mediums without wires, you have to be careful handling them before they are attached at the bottom. It is much like handling top bar comb. I have had one or two collapse in the Texas heat, probably my fault. Also, you have to watch the bees closely while they are beginning to draw it. I have had them cross comb or build from the bottom. Michael has discovered that a single drawn frame near the middle helps them get started right. Also, do not try 9 frames while they are drawing them out. They will make a mess.

[Michael Bush]

Correct on all counts. You learn to manage just a little differently. But I've had the same problem with 9 frames of bare foundation getting messed up.

[Hillbillynursery]

I guess my bees liked to make unstraight comb to much for the one frame in the middle like MB suggested. I put a foundationless frame against one side of the box the a drawn comb then 2 undrawn then another drawn ect. I was not using starter strips though I was just using the pointed top bar with a ball of wax rubbed acrossed it. It was hard for me last year to get enough straight combs with only 3 medium hive bodies carried over from the year before(I have 2 single deep hives for sale soon LOL). This year I have several well drawn combs in which to use to get them started.

[Michael Bush]

If you want to do a foundationless every other frame between drawn comb then you can just use an empty frame with no comb guide.

[justgojumpit]

What do you guys think about inserting shallow foundationless frames between drawn mediums and then using the extra comb built from the bottom bar of the frame for comb honey? will the bees attach this extra comb to the top bar of the frame below? I'm guessing yes Is there any way I can avoid this? like some type of coating on the top bars below?

justgojumpit

[Michael Bush]

>What do you guys think about inserting shallow foundationless frames between drawn mediums and then using the extra comb built from the bottom bar of the frame for comb honey?

It's only an inch wide. Not a very big chunk of comb honey.

> will the bees attach this extra comb to the top bar of the frame below?

Not at first, but eventually, yes. From my experience, at first they'll leave a beespace on the bottom. If you pull it soon enough it could work. Attaching the bottom will be the last thing they do with it.

> Is there any way I can avoid this? like some type of coating on the top bars below?

FGMO on the top bars below will make it more difficult for them to attach it. But it will only delay it a little bit longer.

[justgojumpit]

an inch... that would be perfect for my chunk comb honey production. Thanks Michael!