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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
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    1,262

    Post

    I went to my supplier of bee stuff today. I wanted to buy a nucc box but they don't sell nucc boxes. I ask why they didn't sell nucc boxes and the answer was, "i don't know".

    I wanted to buy essential oil, they have lemongrass but not wintergreen. I ask if they'll ever sell wintergreen, and the answer was "no".

    I ask if they sell small cell foundation and the answer was "no" with an expression of disgust on the face. When I ask if they'll ever sell small cell, the answer was more in body language then in remarks. They will not sell small cell because they don't believe in the research or theories attached to it. Which is fine but when I ask about the other side of the debate, nothing specific was mentioned that I could hold on too in order to start my own research on the topic other then bee magazines.....

    They manufacture drugs for bees.

    They advertise that they treat their bees with these drugs and this makes me wonder if this is the reason why they don't carry lines that encourage a beekeeper to care for bees without drugs.

    Is there a link from bee researchers that tell us the benefits of large cell size for bee diseases of varroa and treacheal mites and etc.?

    I've been treated very rudely by these people each time I've visited their store. I've purchased everything I own so far from this business....

    I joined the bee club they publish for and have not been mailed the monthly newsletters yet. Have not been listed as new members (like I've seen published of others) and mentioned this to them today. Must have been an oversight...

    This is a sample of how it's been, doing business with them for a year and a half now.

    I'd like to buy what I need from somewhere else.

    If there a place that offers fair price for supplies and other items for beekeepers (who want to avoid meds ect) I sure would like this information?

    I tried to think if I was making too big a deal out of this but it's gotton to the point that I don't want to go to their store anymore. If I ask a question, it's like pulling teeth to get an answer.

    I've spent a lot of money with these people, I plan on spending alot of money in the future for my beekeeping needs, but I don't want to spend it with them.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
    Posts
    1,015

    Post

    I have been keeping bees for 30 years now.
    I have never used chemicals in my hives and have suffered losses that have never exceeded 10%. I have 503 hives now 500 of which I earn my living and now have 3 expermental hives that I have regressed down to 4.9 mm cell size. These 3 hives are less problems than my others and they also seem to make more honey than the larger cell hives. Next year I plan to re-gress 50 more hives down to 4.9 mm and hope to have all my hives on 4.9 within the next 5 years.
    At this time I also use FGMO fog weekly and the cords every month but no chemicals.
    Clint

    ------------------
    Clinton Bemrose
    just South of Lansing Michigan

  3. #3
    BILLY BOB Guest

    Post

    Hi Daisy,

    Well it's your money! I may not make or break a supplier by using them or not, BUT I will put my money where I think I will get the most out of it!!!!!

    My suppliers are: (No order just whoever is cheeper)

    Dadant (Florida branch)
    Brushy Mtn.
    Rosman Ap.

    Purvis Brothers Ap. (queens)

    Each one has never given me any problem what-so-ever, and have went out of there way to help me and answered all of my questions. They may not agree with 4.9mm foundation, but are happy to sell it to me whenever I want it.

    As far as "They manufacture drugs for bees" . Some people are just confused. Most research labs get their funding from drug companies. They have alot more money for the research and would rather have your local bee lab to be doing research for them.

    Here's a good example: One researcher I know was working on how you can use different fuels in your smoker to kill V. mites. One of the best results was citrus leaves. Well with those results who will want to fund the rest of the research? No one. The citrus growers might, but how much money will they get out of it. Not as much a drug company will. If a drug company is willing to fund a lab or reseach center with large grants it will have a tendency to keep the labs from researching other cures. ie. keep the sick, sicker for longer and get more money.

    BB


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    156

    Big Grin

    I can't tell you how excited I am to have discovered this web site and this dialogue! I just started keeping bees and after taking the few introductory classes here I felt like everyone was using drugs, the more the better and that I was a fool, throwing my money away, if I were to attempt not to.
    I've got screened bottem boards, I've been using drone comb and I plan on doing a little sugashake/sprinkle once all my brood has hatched. And I'm so excited to learn and do more.

    Thanks people!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,304

    Post

    They all sell what are the legal treatments.Dont expect much help in the gray areas from the supply dealers.Personally,I wouldnt do business with rude people.THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.Here is the link to Glorybee,the cheapest place to get wintergreen oil.They are very reliable people to do business with.(my links often dont work,but someone usually comes along to fix them) http://glorybeefoods.com/gbf/

    [This message has been edited by loggermike (edited August 19, 2003).]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,320

    Post

    >I went to my supplier of bee stuff today. I wanted to buy a nucc box but they don't sell nucc boxes. I ask why they didn't sell nucc boxes and the answer was, "i don't know".

    Brushy Mt has medium nuc boxes and deeps. Also 8 frame medium equipment, which when using medium frames makes a nice in between size nuc of about the same volume as a 5 frame deep.

    Western Bee Supply http://www.westernbee.com/ also has deep nucs. Better bee has some two frame nucs that are nice for a small split or a mating nuc.

    >I ask if they sell small cell foundation and the answer was "no" with an expression of disgust on the face.

    Dadant and Brushy Mt are the only two places with wax and Dadant is the only place with the plastic and it's not listed in the online catalog, you have to ask for the plastic.

    >When I ask if they'll ever sell small cell, the answer was more in body language then in remarks. They will not sell small cell because they don't believe in the research or theories attached to it. Which is fine but when I ask about the other side of the debate, nothing specific was mentioned that I could hold on too in order to start my own research on the topic other then bee magazines.....

    No research has ever been done to show that there is an advantage to having enlarged cells. There is just a general consensus (conventional wisdom) that bigger bees can carry more honey and are therefore more productive.

    >Is there a link from bee researchers that tell us the benefits of large cell size for bee diseases of varroa and treacheal mites and etc.?

    Of course there is no benefit nor does anyone believe there is a benefit in large cell size and varroa or tracheal mites.

    >I've been treated very rudely by these people each time I've visited their store. I've purchased everything I own so far from this business....

    Everything you could every want is available mail order.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama
    Posts
    536

    Post

    Daisy, I have always had good luck with Mann Lake, nice people. They don't have small cell. As Michael pointed out, Brushy Mountain and Dadant have that. The people at Brushy Mountain are real friendly. I use the Dadant Florida branch for small cell because it's close, I can pick it up when I drive through. Betterbee has nice 5 frame and 2 frame nucs, although pricy. Also good container prices.

    ------------------
    Rob Koss

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Neodesha, Ks
    Posts
    623

    Post

    Daisy, I think I can name the people that you are talking about as I got the same answers when I asked why they didn't discuss FGMO. [Not approved for use in Honey]
    Email www.kelleybees.com, they are an old company and will help you with any questions you might have. They are in Ky., alittle futher away but it is worth the delivery charge to get what you need or want. Also Hawley Honey Co, Iola, Ks advertizes that they have 4.9 foundation.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Post

    Daisy -
    I have been doing business with THOSE people in Olatha Ks. since I started keeping bees. I know what you mean, they both have bad days and worse days.

    I have been doing less and less business with them every year. Not just because of their personalities, (they can be nice), but because what I need I can find at better prices elsewhere and I don't have to drive 360 miles round trip. - Just thought better of that last statement, they DO have some things for less, but with shipping it comes out about the same.

    Don't let them turn you off of the Kansas Honey Producers Assn. It is a good group and the only one we have in the state that I know of. We had a very good seminar last March in Emporia, I really enjoyed it and met a lot of really good people. The presentations were very worthwhile and there were also five different suppliers of equipment there as well.

    The 100th Anniversary Celebration and Fall Meeting will be October 17 and 18, 2003 in McPherson Ks. and will have Dr. Marla Spivak (U. of Minn.) and Dr. Chip Taylor (U. of Ks.) as guest speakers. I hope to see you there, you will not get too many chances to hear Dr. Spivak speak.

    If any of you want a good source of boxes, Browning Cut Stock makes fine woodenware at good prices and fast service. See ad in ABJ or Beeculture. I just recieved 40 more medium boxes, construction grade, freight paid $6.67 per box. They also have a cheaper grade called budget. There may be cheaper out there somewhere, but I can attest for these, they go together easy and do not have that annoying predrilled hole in the wrong place either. I like to drill and countersink my own, in the right place. And the handles are cut clean on both ends, unlike some that I have ordered from back East.

    Daisy - I feel the small businessman's plight, being one, I know how important it is to support the small business's in your area. When I come through KC I always stop in and buy something. If we don't support the mom and pop business all we will have left are the overpriced, high freight mail order places. A small business is supported for their ability to give expert advise and service, I agree that they are too limited in the areas of progressive beekeeping, but they have a full plate to deal with as it is.

    Get all the catalogs, compare the prices, buy what you can freight free from THOSE people, and mail order the rest. For expert advise, ask Mike, or Bjorn, or Hooterhiver, Axeman, or anyone else with experiance on this board.

    Bee happy,

    Bill

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    "Also Hawley Honey Co, Iola, Ks advertizes that they have 4.9 foundation".

    Russ, when I was at this business yesterday I picked up the newsletter for Aug and read his ad in it. He sells small cell on wax and he sells used equipment and even frames of brood. He says he can set you up with about anything you need,

    I appreciate all the help.

    As much as I'd like to grump about this business some more, because Like I said, with the exception of my first visit, I feel I've been treated very disrespectfully. This is not over the phone, this is in person, and everytime I've ever been there. At this point I don't believe I could have just had bad luck in catching them while in the occasional bad mood/day.

    Yes, I'll be bookmarking these sites and copying this string to refer to when I need to. It will come in sooo handy.

    I ask yesterday about a co op of some sort for beekeepers where we can buy large amounts of sugar for our bees. It's not like farmers of cows and such that we can get help from the state when they're starving from drought etc..... They just didn't know. I pried out of them the answer that they use corn syrup because it's easier. I ask about where to get this! And they never told me that they sell it. It was after I came home and looked on one of the newsletter, I saw a blurb about them selling it. It's just goes on and on........silly stuff really. But beekeeping is something that I want to be successful at.

    Oh, when they talked to me about a filter for my honey, I told them I'd be using a knee high stocking to filter it, and this was quickly put down and why. Well, I had only one hive that was strong enough to take honey from this year. So I didn't need an elaborate filtering system at this time.

    It really helps to have a place to vent other then my husband. LOL He and I have been talking about it this morning and he doesn't normally pick up on this sort of thing but he has noticed this as an extreme case of negative customer treatment.

    One day, I stuck my head in the door and said, "is everyone is a good mood today"? And the answer was "no". I giggled and said "well I need.......". And went on in.

    But yesterday was the last day I'll ever cross their threshold. So sad....

    Is there a way to cut costs on sugar?

    Thanks again....


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    Thank'you Bill for your excellent advice/inofrmation. Your post and all the other kind folks posts have been extremely helpful and hopefully will help anyone who reads it....

    I believe in supporting our small buisness people and I believe in spending my money locally. I treat others the way I want to be treated myself.

    I just don't appreciate the big fish in a little pond syndrome...... I have no ego to speak of but I don't like others with the Big I little U attitudes.. Sure, I didn't know what I was doing, I've had a lot of learning to do, I've made a lot of mistakes but maybe just maybe I could have done better if I had a little more help from these people. Whew! Take a deep breath......... LOL

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bradenton, FL, and Davenport, IA, USA
    Posts
    930

    Post

    Daisy,
    There are lots of reasons why not to use corn sugar. 1) its more expensive lbs for lbs. than cane sugar. 2) you need more corn sugar per volume of water to get the same brix (brix means how much sugar is in solution) 3) if you add factors 1 and 2 together, that's even MORE expensive than either alone.

    Go to the grocery store and buy 5lbs bags of sugar. So far its the cheapest method I know of.

    If you are looking for the health of the bees I like making home made invert sugar (don't buy it, its not the same thing), which more resembles the constitution of honey. The data say invert surgar isn't as nutritional as cane sugar, but homemade invert sugar isn't pure invert sugar.

    Boil in 1:1 sugar syrup 1 gallon, add the juice of one large lemon well juiced, and let simmer untill half of the fluid boils away to make 2:1 sugar syrup. The lemon juice plus the heat inverts a good portion of the sugar, but not all of it, and the acidity and pH make the syrup more resemble honey.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    No kidding......

    More like honey? Wow this is great information!

    I'm learning so much here. I'll copy and paste this into my beekeeping notes.

    Thanks Scott.....

    Sincerely....Me

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    "I have 503 hives now 500 of which I earn my living and now have 3 expermental hives that I have regressed down to 4.9 mm cell size. These 3 hives are less problems than my others and they also seem to make more honey than the larger cell hives. Next year I plan to re-gress 50 more hives down to 4.9 mm and hope to have all my hives on 4.9 within the next 5 years.
    "

    Clinton, How long did it take you to get built up to this scale? Are all your hives on your land or do you have them placed out on other peoples' land?

    If on other land, how do you approach the landowners and what do you say to get permission to place your beeyard there?

    I can't believe how beekeeping has affected my life. It's become like a cult to me. LOL

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,320

    Post

    The "other side of the cell size" argument really is just that it takes a lot of work, money and commitment to convert any large amount of hives over to small cell. Of course you can always just stop buying large cell and use small cell until you are converted, but still the small cell foundation is more expensive and it's not available wired. It IS available in plastic now and I like it a lot too.

    I have used the 4.9m wax and the plastic from Dadant.

    My system is the waxed PermaComb and that is pretty much painless and fairly quick except for the work of wax coating it.

    So, the other side of the argument is simply does small cell help? If it does is it worth the effort and the money to convert?

    So far I'm very impressed with the results of small cell.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Neodesha, Ks
    Posts
    623

    Post

    Daisy, Hawley Honey Co sells sugar by the barrel. I have a friend that bought 2 barrels for I think $60.00 [about 600lbs. He sells honey in this area so he brought the sugar with him when he was delivering honey to the local grocery store. I would imagine that his price is picked up. Don't know what his supplier is, maybe from the bakery industry or surplus. Check it out. Dale in S.E. Ks

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
    Posts
    1,015

    Post

    "I have 503 hives now 500 of which I earn my living and now have 3 expermental hives that I have regressed down to 4.9 mm cell size. These 3 hives are less problems than my others and they also seem to make more honey than the larger cell hives. Next year I plan to re-gress 50 more hives down to 4.9 mm and hope to have all my hives on 4.9 within the next 5 years.
    "

    Clinton, How long did it take you to get built up to this scale?
    Answer
    It took me almost 10 years to build up to 500 hives and finding places for them.

    Are all your hives on your land or do you have them placed out on other peoples' land?
    Answer
    I have hives in 4 counties in Michigan. This is in 32 diferent locations allong with 3 expermental hives on my 73 acres of land.
    All the hives are moved South for polonation contracts except the 3 that are the experimental hives. I never place more than 20 hives in a yard.

    If on other land, how do you approach the landowners and what do you say to get permission to place your beeyard there?
    Answer
    All of my hives are placed for polonation and the word of mouth goes around the growers and they call me and make their offers to get my bees. In the last 8 years I have not added any new hives or contracts and have been lucky to only loose about 10% in bees which I have found that I can make up bu doing splits from many hives to make up for the losses. So far it looks as if the honey year will be a bust for me.



    ------------------
    Clinton Bemrose
    just South of Lansing Michigan

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    Thanks Russ, I'll give him a call tonight.

    I know he sells frames of honey for nine bucks a piece, and I even thought about using his honey to resell around here and decided against it. If folks want local raw honey from me, then this is what they'll get, IF I get it. LOL

    He sells used equipment as well. I may drive down there sometime before spring to get my expansion needs....

    Have you ever been to his place?


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    "If a drug company is willing to fund a lab or reseach center with large grants it will have a tendency to keep the labs from researching other cures. ie. keep the sick, sicker for longer and get more money.

    BB"

    Bill, these tactics are identical to the pharmaceutical industries hold over the medicine and treatments who seek to shout over the benefits of herbal/ vitamins allopathic homeopathic alternatives for treatments. Identical!


    There has to big money in it, it may need a patent, or exclusive rights to it's preparation and distribution.

    I hadn't realized the connection until you brought this up...

    Your message made me think of the Cancer Society. They have a charter that says If they find a cure for cancer, they can no exist no longer. Makes sense.

    So the drug companies lobby Washington, pay the limit in donations to the politicians and attack doctors with cancer cures to run them out of the country. And suppress and condemn all their research.





  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Neodesha, Ks
    Posts
    623

    Post

    Daisy, No I have never been to Hawley Honey Co., Talked to him on the phone once. Doesn't take long to know that you have to watch out when dealing with him. I heard once that he has 1500 hives scattered around over S. E. Ks. I think he is like a lot of other people that he will deal in most anything to make a buck. Nuf said. Dale

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