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258K views 271 replies 88 participants last post by  Michael Palmer 
#1 ·
Michael Bush has asked that I participate in a discussuin on "Wintering Nucs."

I do winter nucs here in the northern Champlain Valley of Vermont and New York. More than 400 this winter. This is sometning that my good friend and sometimes mentor, Kirk Webster, has talked me into. I say talked me into, because at first I was not convinced. I mean, if my production colonies couldn't winter very well, how could 4 frame nucs. Anyway, I did give it a half hearted try...about 15 years ago.

I had a yard to move, one that had dwindled to only 15 colonies. The spot was too windy, and the road too rough, and the neighbors...recently built a house...too angry. Rather than just move them, I split them into 4 frame nucs, installed queens, and walked away. I wintered them on top of other colonies. 90% made it. I thought that was pretty amazing, considering I had done no management.

So, encouraged, I made more the next summer. I had two options. I could remove brood from production colonies, or I could split up weak...non-productive colonies. Since the best time for me to make these nucs is mid-summer, and that's when the crop is on, and would require lots of extra lifting, I chose the latter method.. It has become the foundation of my ability to keep my numbers up, and raise my own stock.

I think the method is simple enough, and what is required of each beekeeper is to get the timing right for each area of the country. Obviously, the time for making up nucs in Vermont will not be the same as for Nebraska where MB lives, or Virginia, or Ohio...etc.

Anyway, here in Vermont, the best time for making up nucs is mid to late July. Non-productive colonies are sacrifised. 1 1/2 frames of brood and bees are place in each nuc box, until all brood from the weak colony is used up. I use 4 frame, double nuc boxes, but the style isn't of much importance. It's what's in the box that counts. Along with the two frames containing brood, I add one comb of honey and pollen, and one empty comb or frame of foundation. This yields 4 - 6 nucs. I find if I make them too strong that they will swarm on the fall flow. So, resist adding extra shakes of bees...as you would with spring made splits. Mid-summer nucs are different. You want them to just build up enough to populate the box with young bees, and then shut down. Remember, when the brood hatches, there will be lots of bees. So, just add enough bees to cover the brood. Also remember...it is mid-summer. The nights are warmer, and chilled brood isn't much of a problem. Swarming is!! So, after making up what nucs you can from the weak hive. I move the nuc boxes to another yard and give each a laying queen or ripe cell.

The split up hive can often be saved, if you find the old queen, as they still have all the field bees. Give the one box on the bottom 4 to 6 combs of honey, and 4 to 5 empty combs, and the old queen. They build up quite quickly. When there is hatching brood, the unit can be requeened with the last round of mated queens...in August, and wintered on top of another colony. If you have a longer season, it can be increased to 1 1/2 stories, and wintewred on a stand that way.

A few weeks after making them up, they must be checked for strength. Those with exceptionally prolific queens will begin swarm preparationa on the fall (late) flows. Don't let this happen. If it does, you lose your bought or raised queen, and they often go into winter with small clusters...although many will still winter. Uf they are getting too strong...cups with eggs, or young cells are started, remove a frame, and add a empty or foundation. As long as there is a flow on, you have to manage them. Some will be so strong that you can remove two frames and give an empty and a foundation, or two empties. The idea is to have them packed with bees at the end of your last flow, with a couple frames of food, and no cells. THis is where the iming comes in. It's just something you will have to experiment with.

For winter...here...I want about 20 pounds of feed for winter. I don't want every cell and nook and cranny filled with honey or syrup. The bees still need clustering space...just like a full sized colony. I remove each frame, and see hoe much additional feed they will need to have 3.5 frames of feed...in a four frame nuc. They are moved in late fall, and winter on top of a production colony's inner cover. No communication hole or screen between the two. This gives them a nice warm dry place to winter. Further south, they can be wintered on a stand, and even stacked on top of each other...wintered in blocks of 6 or 9 double boxes.

Now, another plan is to start them earlier...say mid June here. These will positively swarm. So, after they fill their section, they are again split...say in mid-July. In this way, the original 4 - 6 nucs becomes 8 - 12. So, from your original weak colony, you can get anwhere from 4 to 12 nucs. Some years, the second round of splitting will yield 3 nucs from each original nuc, and will yield 12 - 18 nucs. This of course depends on where you keep bees, how strong your flows are, and how well they build up.

I think the biggest problems you will face are swarming, chalk brood, and poor queens. But if you make enough, you will have some spectacular nucs, some average nucs, and some duds that can be requeened and given brood from nucs that are too strong.

That's it for now. Have to go to Darts, where we're playing a top ranked team. We beat #1 the other night 20-10 :) I went out with 140 in 301, if you know what that means.

I'm sure I haven't been entirely clear on my procedure, and there will be plenty of questions...so I'll answer them as they come in.
 
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#159 ·
Note his reference to comb- that is drawn comb. This plan works with foundation, but probably not as well. Monitoring for queen cells and acting upon them is super critical- as it is in all colonies, but more so it seems in these brood building OW nucs expanding upwards. I should have paid more heed to Garcia myself and even resorted to taking out the queen (artificial swarm) in a few as breaking down queen cells was not enough - booming populations, cells everywhere, on frames, bottom, and hidden on sides. Plus I didn't even consider that I should be shaking bees off frames to find cells, and even if I did, surely I would have missed some cells. I lost many good queens to swarms- even with ow nucs expanding to 12- 15 frames (3 boxes high). On the bright side, I also raised several great queens from swarm cells by taking frames with cells out and putting in mating nucs. They were packing away plenty of honey so took that out as well. And definitely I harvested much brood, honey, etc. for more nucs, mating nucs, etc. But if I had comb, and/or really paid attention every 7 days, I can see that expanding exponentially is definitively within reach with this plan. Next year adding shaker box into the routine when needed, brushing off comb, and training my other half to look for QCs should improve the odds.
 
#160 ·
Adrian Quiney WI says: "The population in those overwintered nucs took off faster than I could have imagined. I was dealing with excessive swarming Mid-May...I can't emphasize enough how easy it is to get behind with wooden ware and frames. I am moving to as simple a system as possible."

I am only overwintering 7 nucs and 4 full colonies at the moment, but I'm building gear to house 30 nucs and 10 full colonies. But given the talk here, maybe that's not enough... I guess it depends on how much I want to expand next summer.

Mike Palmer says: "So, staying well ahead of them with empty comb is essential."

Mike, that's why I thought 10:1 might be a stretch - for me. I don't have the drawn comb. How do you advise management in a situation where you only have foundation? Also, how often do you see having to check on your nucs?

Winevines says: " This plan works with foundation, but probably not as well. Monitoring for queen cells and acting upon them is super critical...if I had comb, and/or really paid attention every 7 days, I can see that expanding exponentially is definitively within reach with this plan. "

Karla, you're saying every 7 days. So when is the range of dates you would be on that schedule? When would you begin to worry in the spring, and when would you begin to worry less about them swarming? Just trying to get a sense of what kind of work a full yard of nucs could be.

Each of you suggests the imperative of keeping ahead of these nucs to prevent swarming, so I'm trying to get a handle on what kind of schedule that would present, as well as how much gear I need to produce to be able to handle it. Also, at this point, I don't have the drawn comb to work with, so that has to alter the approach somewhat. How does that change the picture?

Thanks

Adam
 
#161 ·
Karla, you're saying every 7 days. So when is the range of dates you would be on that schedule? When would you begin to worry in the spring, and when would you begin to worry less about them swarming? Just trying to get a sense of what kind of work a full yard of nucs could be.
/QUOTE]
you have 16 days for the new queen to emerge- so looking every 2 weeks in theory should be enough. I say looking every 7 days because I am not always adept at seeing that egg or larvae housed in the queen cup until that cup is bigger and more clearly a queen cell- so that is potentially 3 days right there I miss at a minimum... and the cell is capped at 9, and they swarm early, so I came up with 7 days being the schedule I need to aim for if I can.
I figure we are about 1 month ahead of you more or less. April 1st is generally when swarming starts. Later April more average. We seldom have strong Fall flow so I don't worry much about later swarms, although they do happen.
 
#163 ·
so if your 7 day inspection schedule begins on April 1, when does it end, or switch to wider intervals?
Bees are much more likely to swarm right before, or in the beginning of, a big flow.

I don't know what your flows are, so I can't tell you how long you should continue to look.

For me, swarm season can start in early to the middle of March, but most issue around April 1. That's because Tulip poplar (are large, and sometimes only flow) blooms from April 1 to April 30 (on average). So for me, I continue to check through out March and April on one week intervals. May I usually keep checking at one week intervals. Clovers are usually going well now, and some overstocked hives don't always get the "memo" that swarm season is over. But almost all of them are done by June 1. From there I usually check about once every two weeks, or once a month, until July 1. Then the dearth hits and you better not open that hive up unless you want to lose it. Then recheck in middle of August.
 
#168 ·
Michael, it has to be ‘shop time’ for you as well as the rest of us above the 45th parallel. It sounds like you have a lot of double’s in your plan that you stack on top of each other for 8 frame hives, are you in construction? Do you have some pictures or links to previously posted pictures? I am plaining wood and cutting to length it would be a good time for me to make up some 2/2 MP deeps (trying to get a name to stick can you tell).
 
#169 ·
I wish. All the production hives are ready for wrappers. Waiting for the rain to stop. Most nucs are ready for wrappers, too, but some will need frames of honey added to the top box, as they didn't finish the ones I gave them in early August. Nice populations but with an empty frame or two in the top box.

I can't hardly wait to be finished with my bee work so I can work in the shop. Have lots of plans for the winter. I'll be re-doing my shop...right now my wood shop is the back corner of my honey house...surrounded by plastic sheeting to keep the dust out of the rest of the shop.I plan on making the plastic walls permanent by constructing walls and...oh my gosh...a door! Shelving all around. A long table with chop saw to cross-cut long boards. Did I say shelving to hold nails, tools, glue, etc, etc. And a door! GeeHaw.

So, once I get working in the shop, I can take you some pictures and post them here. You'll have to remind me. I'm so forgetful. How forgetful am I...I got up at 5 am this morning because I forgot to turn my clock back. God gave me a neck so I wouldn't forget my head somewhere.

First project...a wooden case for my microscope. That's after my shelving and door are finished. :)
 
#170 ·
Mike,
Loved the 2 part video on overwintering the nucs! I probably missed it while reading the thread but could you clarify some size confusion for me. Are you using 8 frame or 10 frame boxes with a divider when you make your two nuc, 4 frame each side boxes?

I will be preparing equipment this winter for medium frame nucs on order from a local VHS treatment free supplier (Broke-T). My daughter is very interested in raising queens (she is spectacularly good at genetics). Because of the box weight issue, I am strongly considering 8 frame mediums. I am also considering building plywood nucs based on the plans by D. Coats from the "Build it Yourself" section here but reduced to medium depth. If I were to "shrink" the width to be able to stack two side by side on an 13-3/4" wide 8 frame box, then the inside dimensions are 5-5/8". If one used standard with 1-3/8" frames, they would require 5-1/2". Is this too tight to fit 4 standard frames? If I used 1-1/4" "narrow" frames, then this only requires 5". Being located in Mississippi, should I build them with the width per the drawings (7-1/2" inside width), make a bunch of stackable supers, and forget the idea of stacking them on the 8 frame equipment?

Thanks, and when is you book going to be done?
Tim H
 
#172 ·
Mike, great thread.
In reference to the brood factory, I get that you let her fill out the bottom box, move a frame of brood up to bait the second box and put a third box of drawn frame for gathering. My question is, do you reverse the first and second boxes to get her back down to supply her with accessible empty comb?
Thanks,
Mark
 
#174 ·
My question is, do you reverse the first and second boxes to get her back down to supply her with accessible empty comb?
Thanks,
Mark
I don't reverse, but do rearrange the combs. I find them raising brood in both boxes by the end of April, sometimes with a couple frames of honey left above. I leave the bottom box alone. Two combs of brood go in the second story against the divider and two empty combs fill the box. The top box gets two empty brood combs against the divider and the two frames of honey at the outside.

I consider the divider where the two 8 1/8 super meet.
 
#173 ·
The big question is: did Mike ever get his door?
If he is still subscribed this is the reminder to post the pictures of the shop (walls and doors) and microscope case (that is on my list as well). Here is a shot of my divided deeps with shallows (posted it in another thread).
With base (painted base gray)
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4334_zpsa21269cf.jpg
Just a pile (funny cause of the color of a pile):
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4265_zpsf2950e48.jpg
 
#175 ·
Here's a little to add to the discourse. I was just going over my notes from this past winter on my un-miticide treated nucs. I had a group of 5 who (like the others) provided some brood, but didn't get an observed broodbreak from 2011/12. Of those I lost 2. The other 13 all had a beekeeper induced/observed broodbreak - of those I lost one. The overall survival rate so far (still have snow on the ground) is 15 out of 18 which is pretty good considering the winter we have had. I plan to ensure that everyone gets a brood break.
I am also contemplating the wisdom of cutting off some honey production August 1, and then if I can get my timing right, adding cells and splitting some 10 frame hives back to nucs; The number of these I try will depend on the drawn comb and combs of feed I have at the time.
The season is short, and the winter is long; Rather than leaving the supers out to catch the dregs of the summer flows and the Goldenrod my apiary might be better served making more nucs. I wish there were more local beekeepers who raised cells; I think there is real opportunity at a local level for some synergistic cooperation.
 
#176 ·
>I think there is real opportunity at a local level for some synergistic cooperation.

good point adrian. i have been talking with a few of my local beeks about swapping some queens this year.

i have changed my plans a little bit, from rearing queens and making nucs during the main flow to waiting until after the spring honey harvest.

the drawback is i will miss out on the best forage for making nice cells, won't be taking advantage of the swarm impluse, and drone availability will be less than is associated with the main flow. i'll have to make sure my cell builder is properly fed, and i will likely have to provide supplemental feed for the nucs through our summer dearth.

the advantages are that i can concentrate on swarm prevention and honey production this spring, plus i can gauge vigor, production, and get a meaningful mite count at the start of summer in order to select which queens to graft from.

last year's dead outs are now swarm traps that will hopefully give me plenty of bees to make up the nucs with.

i try to maintain twelve production hives, and will try to keep at least that many nucs on hand to overwinter.
 
#177 ·
With all the mentions of how fast overwintered nucs build up in the Spring, I'm wondering if it is worth overwintering my 3-4 full size hives or simply overwintering nucs made from them. We have the April swarm season and flow is May/June followed by July/August dearth and iffy fall Goldenrod flow. So having to provide honey or feed to the production colonies most of the summer and fall takes a lot of resources vs. nucs.

Will overwintered nucs build up quickly enough in the Spring to take advantage of the flow here? Or overwintering twice as many nucs and combining them into production hives in early Spring?
 
#181 ·
Another way is to let surplus bees look after surplus comb. If you adopt the nuc method of making increase successfully you will have bees-a-plenty.
This fall I had a couple of production colonies that I did not allow to build up for wintering - I had harvested their honey - I let them sit on the combs until Nov 6th, and then I shook them out. There are no comb pests active up here at this time, and now I have 50 good brood combs sitting in my shed.
It is wise to plan to have spare brood combs in the spring. I have been moving away from overwintering double 10 frame deeps to overwintering 5 over 5 frame nucs, with a few 5 over 5 over 5 framers thrown in.
I will need those combs in the spring. I hope to sell a 1/3 or so of these, run 8-10 for honey, and then make increase with the rest. I bought no bees last year, not a single one.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/A...000D008158F4C_zpsd85e4c9f.jpg.html?sort=6&o=8
 
#186 ·
This is probably a dumb question but since i'm way down in the learning curve here goes.
Can comb from honey production be used for brood comb after its been extracted?

Thank all you experienced beeks for this info. Im like some of the others said, I cant wait til spring to try to apply some of this knowledge.

Randy
 
#187 ·
It is my understanding that in some scenarios honey comb will be drawn too deep for brood rearing. However, for the most part the answer is yes, they can. It could be possible that the uncapping process would provide the proper depth. Hopefully someone can confirm this for both of us
 
#189 ·
If the cell size is proper the bees will make the debth what they need to for brood. They'll tear it down to use if they need to. When they fill the brood nest in the fall / summer with nectar / honey / sugar whatever they'll often draw the cells slightly deeper. Then come spring buildup as they use the stores they'll shrink the depth of the cells as is needed. Also if it's too thin they'll obviously draw it deeper.
 
#190 ·
I see you move the nucs on top of more powerful hives or huddle them together.
When exactly do you do this to prevent disoriented bees? I guess you do it after a few non-flying days; and again when do you put them back to the new Spring position?

I've read in a Doolittle book that they placed the hives exactly in the same position after wintering them in the cellar.

This looks tricky to me. Can you please post some details about this?
 
#192 ·
I run all two story double nucs now, and leave them on their summer stands for winter.
I think in my climate I can easily get away with one box. I'm thinking on using a regular second box above excluders during the summer for giving them space and storage. In late August I will organize them in double singles... with God's will.

Thanks
 
#193 ·
MP, Hello from Milton Vermont.

I am very new to bee keeping having just purchased my very first two packages and installed them into two hives just last Thursday. I understand what you are talking about when you talk about the negatives about purchasing package bee's so hence my question.

Would you feel it it would be a good idea to "Sacrifice" both hives in late July and split them both entirely into X number of nucs to overwinter, introduce locally raised queens and essentially start next year with X hives of locally raised queens and locally overwintered bees?
 
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