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Thread: IPM

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    169

    Cool

    ok, me again,
    IPM. I am looking at the Brushy Mt catalog (I have requested every catalog there is!).

    I want to get a screened bottom thingy with a slide out sheet. Now, is it possible to make a very simple one that can fit right above my existing bottom board? I can get sheet metal at Home Depot and cut to fit. "I don't need no stinkin' store-bought grid sheet".

    And - what do you use instead of the all the chems? Grease patties? Drone foundation?

    Do I really need to give Fumidil-B and Terramycin?

    Now I have heard of using oils from the natural food store, but I'm not sure what they are used for.

    What about organic oils (olive/grapeseed) instead of crisco for the grease patties?

    We had a man from Tongenoxie come last meeting and talk about honey plants and he is an organic gardner and only used chems when he really has to - he'd rather take the chance of losing the bees then use the chems. But, the talk was on honey plants. I didn't get the chance to ask him about what he does for his bees.

    Thanks again,
    Martha

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,553

    Post

    >I want to get a screened bottom thingy with a slide out sheet. Now, is it possible to make a very simple one that can fit right above my existing bottom board? I can get sheet metal at Home Depot and cut to fit. "I don't need no stinkin' store-bought grid sheet".

    Brushy Mt also has one that fits on top of the existing bottom board. Unfortunately if you want it to do everything it should, like have a slide out screen and a 3/4" gap underneath to the sheet and a 3/4" gap on top for the bees coming and going, it's not THAT simple. But if you're handy it's not that bad either. The one Brushy Mt makes to put on top of your existing one, you turn the bottom board around and sue the bottom board for the 3/4" gap at the bottom and as the slide out tray holder. You can either look at the pictures and give it a try or you can buy one and use it for a pattern.

    >And - what do you use instead of the all the chems? Grease patties? Drone foundation?

    There are a variety of options for the variety of problems. First, and probably most devastating are Varroa mites. Your choices if not using chemcicals are to go to natural sized cells (small cell 4.9mm foundation) or FGMO fog and cords. If you are willing to use a bit more caustic chemcals but not pesticides, you could use formic acid or oxalic acid or thymol. In any case I would monitor your mites and see how your solution is working.

    >Do I really need to give Fumidil-B and Terramycin?

    I don't. Some use it twice a year as a preventative. The Terramycin is a preventative for AFB. AFB is everywhere and is a stress disease. Try to prevent stress. If you get AFB you will be faced with the hard choice to burn the hive(s) with AFB or treat depending on the laws in your state and your choices. The Fumidil is for Nosema. Again, if you try to prevent stress and leave them honey for the winter they will be less likely to get an outbreak. Nosema is everywhere and an outbreak is almost always after a long cold spell where they bees can't fly and they've been eating sugar syrup.

    >Now I have heard of using oils from the natural food store, but I'm not sure what they are used for.

    The purpose of the Essential oils is to boost the immune system of the bees. They are useful in trying to prevent outbreaks of virus infections from the mites and some minor brood diseases. The most commonly used ones are Wintergreen, Peppermint and Lemongrass oil. I suppose Thymol is in this category since it's from the oil of Thyme. They are also reputed to reduce the reproduction of the Varroa, but I din't know of any study that proves this and they are useful in preventing the reproduction of the Tracheal mites because they mask the odor of a "young" bee which is what the T-mites must find to reproduce.

    >What about organic oils (olive/grapeseed) instead of crisco for the grease patties?

    You have to have something solid enough to hold together. I don't know if they will work.

    The grease patties are for the Tracheal mites. Other things used are menthol (from oil of peppermint) and FGMO fog. The FGMO fog will kill them without having to open the hive (which you have to do for the patties and the menthol) and have the temps just right (as in the menthol). The small cell is reputed to also control Tracheal mites.

    >We had a man from Tongenoxie come last meeting and talk about honey plants and he is an organic gardner and only used chems when he really has to - he'd rather take the chance of losing the bees then use the chems. But, the talk was on honey plants. I didn't get the chance to ask him about what he does for his bees.

    This is the place I learned the most organic options for treating the bees.

    Personally I think the "dream" of any organic keeper is to be able to NOT treat the bees. The only way I know to get to that is natural sized cells.


  3. #3
    Hello
    martha you are to inbark on a tricky subject of treating or not treating. personaly I don't like chemicals un like most commercial breeders it makes good sense to breed for mite resistence. I don't make as much money or amounts of bees as do my other comm. breeders. I try to make less and a better grade of bee. as for the natural oils I use them to do all my treatments as does Daisy we might be the few but the proud.
    you need to reserch what is best for you in your area. I have tried the sbb's for a yr on my hives never seen much diff. I make all my own equiptment so you also can do it and save a lot if your into experenting about.
    find your self a local beekeeper to help you out. most are very helpful I am 62 and I think I learn something new every yr. good luck on you new hobby==Don

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kiel WI, USA
    Posts
    2,368

    Post

    Simple screened bottom board: Turn your bottom board 180 degrees, lay 8 mesh on top, then strips of scrap wood 3/4" thick on the sides and back.

  5. #5
    jfischer Guest

    Post


    > AFB is everywhere and is a stress disease. Try to prevent stress.

    This is a highly unusual claim. I know of no published work supporting
    the conclusion that bees subjected to stress will develop AFB without
    already having been exposed to the spores that cause AFB.
    Where do the Bacillus larvae come from, if AFB is caused by "stress"?
    Is this a case of spontaneous generation?

    While it certainly is true that a colony under stress will be
    less effective housekeepers, which can allow a small case of
    AFB to get out of control, the trick is to detect AFB when
    it is a "small scale problem", something that takes a good
    eye (or a very good nose, like the Maryland dogs trained to
    detect [sniff out] AFB as they walk by the hives).

    The best approach to any brood disease is to detect it early.
    The MAAREC web site has very good photos of every common
    pest and disease one might expect to find in North America,
    and also addresses the use of approved treatments.
    http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pest&disease/pppdIndex.html


    > The Fumidil is for Nosema. Again, if you try to prevent stress and leave
    > them honey for the winter they will be less likely to get an outbreak.

    This is yet another highly speculative statement, one unsupported by
    research. As Nosema is caused by a protozoa, "Nosema apis", it may
    well be a function of water quality. As most "feeds" are mixed
    with water, the blaming of "feed" may be a big clue that the beekeeper
    has a well (or a really scary municipal water supply), and unwittingly
    introduces the protozoa with the water. Any decent water filter (even
    the kitchen-faucet "Brita" filters) will filter out something as large
    as protozoa.

    > Nosema is everywhere and an outbreak is almost always after a long cold
    > spell where they bees can't fly and they've been eating sugar syrup.

    Well, the acute symptoms (as shown by the "midgut test") are certainly
    much easier to see with the naked eye if the bees have been unable to
    fly and void their feces outdoors, but if one has a microscope and does
    some examination of bee digestive tracts, one can find nosema outside of
    the narrow conditions claimed above, instantly disproving the claim.
    The whole "feed versus honey" thing is an issue of mere dogma, not a
    factor in any form of actual disease prevention and control.

    > The purpose of the Essential oils is to boost the immune system of the bees.

    A promise that has yet to have been fulfilled, and one that simply cannot
    be tested by anyone who can't tell Haemocytes from cytoplasm, which includes
    nearly all beekeepers, leading to people putting odiferous stuff in their hives,
    and ending up with "flavored honey". Folks at West Virginia U. tried long and
    hard to find some practical application for essential oils, but aside from
    "menthol for tracheal mites", which was well-known already, they simply proved
    that essential oils don't do any harm, but don't do any good either.

    There are LOTS of different viral infections of bees, but each is specific
    to the stage of development of the bee - chronic paralysis virus (CPV),
    acute paralysis virus (APV), and cloudy wing virus (CWV) attack adults only,
    while sacbrood virus (SBV) and black queen cell virus (BQCV) are potential
    larval stage problems. The most interesting mechanism by which the viruses
    are spread is via varroa acting like vampires. Dr. Mark Feldlaufer, who runs
    the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab, gave a very good presentation this fall on the work
    of Dr. Yanping Chen, which showed the direct relationship between the number
    of varroa in a cell, and the odds of the bee (and all the varroa) being
    infected with one or more viruses. She ran PCRs on SINGLE mites, so she
    tracked exactly which mites carried what viruses in which cells.

    > and they are useful in preventing the reproduction of the Tracheal mites
    > because they mask the odor of a "young" bee which is what the T-mites must
    > find to reproduce.

    Menthol was never thought to "mask the odor". At first, menthol was thought
    to act as a fumigant, directly killing tracheal mites. The menthol crystals
    were mixed with Crisco and made into patties to increase the vaporization of
    the menthol and obtain a continuous release of the menthol into the hive.
    It was later found that the menthol deserved only partial credit. The vegetable
    shortening in the "patties" were discovered to interfere with tracheal mite
    transfer between bees, making the menthol optional. Well-informed beekeepers
    put vegetable shortening patties (Crisco) in their hives.

    > We had a man from Tongenoxie... only used chems when he really has to.

    He understood >>THE<< key point of Integrated Pest Management.

    >>>>>One cannot manage that which they do not measure.<<<<

    There seems to be a consistent misconception that "IPM" means using
    some sort of all-natural, feel-good, new-age substance to "treat"
    one's hives. This is simply not true. IPM is all about detecting
    and tracking problems, and only treating those yards (or individual
    hives) that show symptoms and clear evidence of problems. It matters
    not if you use incense and crystals, or short-range tactical nuclear
    weapons to "treat" your hives, what matters is that you know which
    hives need to be treated, only treat where required, and track the
    impact of your treatment attempts on the problem.

    To start tracking diseases, you need to steel yourself to "sampling"
    bees from each yard or hive, and doing post mortems. This involves
    killing bees, something that I still don't like, even after all these
    years. Ether and a jar seem to be the most humane method. Then you
    need to buy a cheap microscope (a kid's model is fine) and you need
    to learn how to pop the heads off bees and examine trachea, and how
    to remove the midgut, smear it on a slide and look for nosema. One
    of the many "sticky board" options are an absolute must, but these
    are useless without a regular schedule of USING THEM, counting
    "natural mite drop", and tracking the numbers over time.

    The most important component of "IPM" is your notebook or spreadsheet,
    or whatever you use to track your data. IPM is all about trends,
    records, and comparing "now" to "before" or "same time last year".

    > Personally I think the "dream" of any organic keeper is to be able to NOT treat
    > the bees. The only way I know to get to that is natural sized cells.

    There is no single solution.
    There is no "silver bullet".
    The price of honey is eternal vigilance.

    But, if you dislike treatments that are proven to work, or think
    that they are too "toxic", you can read about some of the ground
    breaking work my staff in Geneva is doing in the area of alternative
    treatments here:

    http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/

    jim


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,262

    Post

    I don't use fumes or terras.. We've discussed this topic many times here on beesource...

    I can only imagine what you'll find if you use the search feature..

    Here or in google...


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,553

    Post

    >This is a highly unusual claim. I know of no published work supporting
    the conclusion that bees subjected to stress will develop AFB without
    already having been exposed to the spores that cause AFB.

    All bees are exposed to AFB spores ALL the time. They are everywhere and they live forever. Every old hive in every tree, every abondoned hive in every old barn. Every hive that died out from AFB when it first got here was FULL of spores and the bacteria manages to survive enough to make more spores in every hive even if the disease is not evident.

    >Where do the Bacillus larvae come from, if AFB is caused by "stress"?
    Is this a case of spontaneous generation?

    I certainly have never suggested spontaneous generation. I AM suggesting that the ROOT cause is stress. The opportunists to that stress are many and include AFB, EFB, Nosema etc. BTW it is no longer called Bacillus larvae and has officially been dubbed Paenibacillus larvae
    http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/cgi/conte...tract/46/1/270

    and EFB has been changed from Streptococcus pluton to Melissococcus pluton.

    AFB spores are found in any hive at any time. What causes an outbreak? If spores are everpresent then something else is the ultimate cause. The spores live forever.
    http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture...ay/01may3.html search for stress
    http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/Art...%20Feb2002.htm search for stress
    http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture...ov/98nov1.html


    >While it certainly is true that a colony under stress will be
    less effective housekeepers, which can allow a small case of
    AFB to get out of control

    One standard preventative has always been to have strong colonies. The theory is that a strong colony get's robbed less and therfore doesn't catch the disease from robbers, but in reality a strong colony is more likely to rob out weak hives, including those weakened by mites or AFB. Yet in spite of that the strong hives are much less likely to get AFB. Why?

    >This is yet another highly speculative statement, one unsupported by
    research.

    I am not speculating. I saw the research quoted in a presentation at Beetopia in Lincoln, Nebraska this fall by Tom Webster. He said that research has shown that bees overwinter on honey get less nosema and bees overwitered on DARK honey get even less.

    >As Nosema is caused by a protozoa, "Nosema apis", it may well be a function of water quality.

    That I don't know, but Tom's presenation said the spores are basiclly in all hives all the time in some amount.

    >Well, the acute symptoms (as shown by the "midgut test") are certainly
    much easier to see with the naked eye if the bees have been unable to
    fly and void their feces outdoors, but if one has a microscope and does
    some examination of bee digestive tracts, one can find nosema outside of
    the narrow conditions claimed above, instantly disproving the claim.

    Nosema can be found even when the gut is not white and distended yes. And this disproves what? Certainly bees can get a noseam outbreak anytime they are stressed, but it seems to happen most often after a long spell of being confined. This was also in Tom Websters presentation on research on Nosema.

    Chech these sites and search for nosema and then search for stress.
    http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~vista/html_p...PT7/CHAPT7.TXT
    http://www.carlislehoney.com/treatments.htm

    >The whole "feed versus honey" thing is an issue of mere dogma, not a
    factor in any form of actual disease prevention and control.

    I got it from a bee scientist, but if you want to consider it dogma that is your perogative.

    > The purpose of the Essential oils is to boost the immune system of the bees.

    A promise that has yet to have been fulfilled, and one that simply cannot
    be tested by anyone who can't tell Haemocytes from cytoplasm, which includes
    nearly all beekeepers, leading to people putting odiferous stuff in their hives,
    and ending up with "flavored honey". Folks at West Virginia U. tried long and
    hard to find some practical application for essential oils, but aside from
    "menthol for tracheal mites", which was well-known already, they simply proved
    that essential oils don't do any harm, but don't do any good either.

    I don't use any currently but have used them in the past.

    Here are some studies. For whatever they are worth:
    http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~vista/html_p...PT7/CHAPT7.TXT
    http://www.carlislehoney.com/treatments.htm
    http://www.hereintown.net/~jkahl/sare.htm
    http://www.caf.wvu.edu/wvafes/projec...t/WVA00317.htm


    >There are LOTS of different viral infections of bees, but each is specific
    to the stage of development of the bee - chronic paralysis virus (CPV),
    acute paralysis virus (APV), and cloudy wing virus (CWV) attack adults only,
    while sacbrood virus (SBV) and black queen cell virus (BQCV) are potential
    larval stage problems. The most interesting mechanism by which the viruses
    are spread is via varroa acting like vampires. Dr. Mark Feldlaufer, who runs
    the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab, gave a very good presentation this fall on the work
    of Dr. Yanping Chen, which showed the direct relationship between the number
    of varroa in a cell, and the odds of the bee (and all the varroa) being
    infected with one or more viruses. She ran PCRs on SINGLE mites, so she
    tracked exactly which mites carried what viruses in which cells.

    Certainly. That's one of the reasons some people use the essential oils to help the bees survive the viruses.

    >Menthol was never thought to "mask the odor". At first, menthol was thought
    to act as a fumigant, directly killing tracheal mites. The menthol crystals
    were mixed with Crisco and made into patties to increase the vaporization of
    the menthol and obtain a continuous release of the menthol into the hive.
    It was later found that the menthol deserved only partial credit. The vegetable
    shortening in the "patties" were discovered to interfere with tracheal mite
    transfer between bees, making the menthol optional. Well-informed beekeepers
    put vegetable shortening patties (Crisco) in their hives.

    Many are now afraid to use the grease patties because of the SHB. I figure the SHB are attracted to beehives with or without the grease patties. Many of the grease patties come with wintergreen or spearmint or pepper mint essential oils. I have not heard of people who are still putting menthol in the patties, but perhaps some do. Most seem to use the mentol on either shop towels or some other method of distribution of the vapor. I did not mean to imply that menthol was used to cover the odor. The grease patties, however do just that they make all the bees smell the same and the mites can't find the young bees and some believe the essential oils contribute to that effect. I'd have to spend more time to see if there is any research that the essential oils DO contribute to the effect of covering the smell. Since I'm not currently using them, it's not that big of a deal to me. The FGMO fog kills them fine.

    >>>>>One cannot manage that which they do not measure.<<<<

    A point I try to make all the time.

    >There seems to be a consistent misconception that "IPM" means using
    some sort of all-natural, feel-good, new-age substance to "treat"
    one's hives. This is simply not true. IPM is all about detecting
    and tracking problems, and only treating those yards (or individual
    hives) that show symptoms and clear evidence of problems. It matters
    not if you use incense and crystals, or short-range tactical nuclear
    weapons to "treat" your hives, what matters is that you know which
    hives need to be treated, only treat where required, and track the
    impact of your treatment attempts on the problem.

    It does matter to some of us what we put in our hives. If for no other reason than I eat what comes out of my hives.

    >To start tracking diseases, you need to steel yourself to "sampling"
    bees from each yard or hive, and doing post mortems. This involves
    killing bees, something that I still don't like, even after all these
    years. Ether and a jar seem to be the most humane method. Then you
    need to buy a cheap microscope (a kid's model is fine) and you need
    to learn how to pop the heads off bees and examine trachea, and how
    to remove the midgut, smear it on a slide and look for nosema. One
    of the many "sticky board" options are an absolute must, but these
    are useless without a regular schedule of USING THEM, counting
    "natural mite drop", and tracking the numbers over time.

    A microscope is the only SURE way to know it's nosema or Tracheal mites. But most of us get by without one. I ALWAYS recommend doing drop counts on mites constantly to monitor the effectiveness of whatever you decide to use. EVEN if it's Apistan or Check-mite.

    >> Personally I think the "dream" of any organic keeper is to be able to NOT treat
    >> the bees. The only way I know to get to that is natural sized cells.

    >There is no single solution.
    >There is no "silver bullet".
    >The price of honey is eternal vigilance.

    I know of a lot of beekeepers are are keeping bees in exactly that way. No chemicals treatments, no FGMO, no organic acids. And their solution is small cell comb, honey and pollen for feed, and disease resistant stock. That is not a single solution, but it is a self sustainable system for the bees.

    >But, if you dislike treatments that are proven to work, or think
    that they are too "toxic"

    Exactly why most of us are here and exactly what the lady was pursuing was alternatives to things that she considers too toxic.

    The last time I tried Apistan it did not work. The last time a friend tried Check-mite it looked like a pesticide kill. There are a lot of people using alternatives that are working. I DON'T see that the "proven" methods are working any better.

    If the lady had asked what the "conventional" treatments for things were, I would have told her that. But that was not what she was seeking, so it was not what I offered.

    In the course of my life I have seen alot of things that were considered a "proven scientific fact" later disproved. It was common when I was born to do X-Ray's of mothers. The mothers were assured that all the research "proved" it was harmless to the baby. So was Thalidimide. Phen-fen had passed all the scientific research that it was safe to use. If some of us are skeptical as to the conclusions of "science" and to the "real" toxicity and ramifications of chemical treatments it is not without basis nor is without precedence.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,553

    Post

    I have to say it's the story of my life that people on both sides of a fence think always think I'm on the other side. I think Daisy probably thinks I'm to "scientific" when I point out that floride is in all natural water, sometimes in amounts higher than the municipalities add to theirs. And Mr. Fischer thinks I'm too "ethereal" or "New Age". Personally I don't buy into anything until I've tried it myself no matter what the science or what other evidence.

    I'm amazed how often people assume because something isn't in the mainstream it therefore has not been researched.

    Also, how often just because something has not been researched at all they assume it's not true.

    Vitamins being used to keep people healthy and treat stress was popular among the "health food" people for decades before the doctors finally acknowledged that they were good for something besides treating scurvy and ricketts. The doctors a few decades ago would do the old quote that it hadn't been proven, implying that it proved it didn't work.

    As for natural methods of disease and mite control, there are many people using many methods and succeeding. I don't consider this scietific proof, but it is enough evidence for me to investigate and try some of those things.

    As for statments I make, I never make them unless I've read it in some scientific journal or another or have experienced it myself. But I have to admit I don't always remember where I read it. It used to be sufficient for MY needs to just remember the information. Now, I need to make better notes because people are constantly questioning the concepts.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Temecula, CA
    Posts
    147

    Post

    Hi Martha,

    In terms of SBB I just went ahead and retrofitted all of my old bottom boards by doing the following.
    1) cut a square hole in the BB with a jig saw and cover with 8/8 hardware cloth
    2) add some 3/4" X 1" pine strips to the bottom that have a 1/4 dado cut in them to accept a sliding plywood tray
    3) cut a 1/4 inch plywood tray that you can put something sticky on

    Pictures of one that I made are here (this is a test website of mine): http://users.adelphia.net/~kamerrill/Honeyhouse2.htm



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    13

    Post

    heres a Humm?? for ya
    From MB
    > The purpose of the Essential oils is to boost the immune system of the bees.

    From Jeff
    A promise that has yet to have been fulfilled, and one that simply cannot
    be tested by anyone who can't tell Haemocytes from cytoplasm, which includes
    nearly all beekeepers, leading to people putting odiferous stuff in their hives,
    and ending up with "flavored honey". Folks at West Virginia U. tried long and
    hard to find some practical application for essential oils, but aside from
    "menthol for tracheal mites", which was well-known already, they simply proved
    that essential oils don't do any harm, but don't do any good either.

    From I WHAT web page.(Jeffs page)
    Anyone who makes candles from their wax may have heard of aromatherapy, and perhaps some beekeepers may be adding scents to the candles to serve the needs of aromatherapists. In brief, aromatherapy is based upon the link between certain odors and certain moods they create. The essential oils from plants used in aromatherapy have been described as their "life force" - they are essential to the plants' biological process, as well as being the substance which gives them their scent.
    Bees are very sensitive to aromas, and thus can be helped by even miniscule treatments, at very low cost to the beekeeper. Our aromatherapy kit for bees consists of 20 different 10ml bottles of different essential oils, which should last most beekeepers for more than a lifetime.

    Humm?
    LOL ok i get it the i what web page is just a joke huh ? lol had me going i am so gullable sometimes lol

    [This message has been edited by rayvin37 (edited February 29, 2004).]

  11. #11
    jfischer Guest

    Post

    > BTW it is no longer called Bacillus larvae and has
    > officially been dubbed Paenibacillus larvae...

    Yeah... my fingers often type faster than my
    memory can keep up with.

    > AFB spores are found in any hive at any time.

    But gee, how'd they get there?
    Even when the gear is new, and the bees came in a package?

    > Tom Webster... said that research has shown that bees overwinter
    > on honey get less nosema and bees overwitered on DARK honey get
    > even less.

    I saw him give what I assume to be the same presentation on how
    nosema is much more common than people think at the TN state
    meeting, also last fall. I think that he would be much less
    emphatic if he were asked about this, and I suspect that he
    would have no answer if asked to explain the mechanics of how
    nosema is supposed to be prevented or reduced through doing
    exactly what has been and is done most often in most hives,
    which is to leave the darker "fall crop" as feed for wintering.

    > Tom's presenation said the spores are basiclly in all hives
    > all the time in some amount

    Again, where did the spores come from in the first place?
    Sometimes simple questions can be very revealing.

    > And this disproves what?

    Disproves the claim that "dark honey" can somehow "cure" or
    prevent nosema. My point is that correlation is not causation.
    If "dark honey" prevented/cured nosema, then there would never
    be a feral colony with nosema, would there? And nosema would
    have never existed about a century ago when "feeding" bees was
    almost unheard of, would it? I hope you now understand why I
    question what you say he said.

    > I got it from a bee scientist, but if you want to consider
    > it dogma that is your perogative.

    I honestly can't imagine Dr. Webster saying that at your meeting,
    and not at the TN meeting, giving the same presentation. So while
    I am sure that you are honestly repeating what you thought you
    heard, I'm not at all that what you think you heard is what he
    said (or meant to say). And if it will make you happy, you
    can call me "Dr. Fischer", but I'm just "jim" to all my friends.

    > It does matter to some of us what we put in our hives.
    > If for no other reason than I eat what comes out of my hives.

    It matters even more to someone like me. Just try selling some
    of your honey to the Europeans sometime. Why do you THINK
    I bought an HPLC/MS? I have to know if there are parts-per-trillion
    of something or other in my honey from my bees foraging on blooms
    along the roads that might have been sprayed by a state highway
    crew without my knowledge. I think we have gotten to the point
    where we have to park our trucks 1/4 mile from the hives and walk
    into the yards, so as to keep the exhaust fumes from contaminating
    the honey at 2 ppt. (I'm only joking a tiny little bit here.)

    > A microscope is the only SURE way to know it's nosema or
    > Tracheal mites. But most of us get by without one.

    Then you missed a VERY BIG point that Tom Webster made, at least
    at the TN meeting. His point was that naked-eye survey had
    far too many "false negtives" to be a reliable test for nosema.
    I agree with him on this 100%. Seen it with my own eyes for years.

    > And their solution is small cell comb, honey and pollen for feed,
    > and disease resistant stock. That is not a single solution, but
    > it is a self sustainable system for the bees.

    My problem is that people get all excited about these things,
    talk about them a lot, and then simply disappear from view after
    a year or three. And then I talk with the big boys, the guys
    with thousands of hives, and I ask them what THEY think about
    this apparently much lower-cost way of keeping bees, and I
    get snorts and hoots, and get told that I have "such a great
    sense of humor". So these guys are what? Ignorant? Stubborn?
    And then I talk to the researchers, and ask them if they want
    me to write them a check and fund some research on this stuff,
    and they smile, and say "thanks", but they'd rather do research
    that will result in benifits to beekeepers.

    I have too much money tied up in "bees", and too many pollination
    contracts to perform every spring to risk more than a few hives
    on "speculative" approaches.

    > The last time I tried Apistan it did not work.

    Then you have "resistant" mites. At last we have Api-Life
    and Surose Octante, so there are now appoved treatments that
    can be alternated with Apistan.

    > The last time a friend tried Check-mite...

    Organophosphates? No thank you. I'd sooner burn my hives
    and raise wax moths for fishing bait.

    > I DON'T see that the "proven" methods are working any better.

    I'll Call. Read 'em and weep. I have 187 thriving hives.
    I started fall with 188. Thats a 99.5% survival rate.
    Seems to be working fine ("steady as she goes, Mr. Sulu").

    The one colony I lost was a simple case of starvation. No idea
    why it went through its stores so quickly, maybe it was skipped
    when hives were being helfted. Feeding would have saved it.
    The "proven methods" are called "proven" for a reason.
    It is not the PRODUCT, as much as the "method", which includes
    taking care to follow proper procedures and track results.

    > It was common when I was born to do X-Ray's of mothers.

    It was worse than that - Shoe stores in the early 1960s
    had X-Ray machines for seeing if your foot really fit in
    their shoes! While I rarely need a night-light for bedtime
    reading, the bad news is that I just can't win a game of
    hide and seek with the kids after dark.

    > If some of us are skeptical as to the conclusions of "science"...
    > ... it is not without basis nor is without precedence.

    Let me make sure I understand:

    a) On the issue of "Dark Honey and nosema", you
    make a classic "appeal to authority", tossing
    around Tom Webster's name without any actual quotes
    of his exact words on the subject at hand, and
    chiding me for daring to be skeptical of ONE study.

    b) On some other issues, you claim to be "skeptical of
    science", apparently as a whole.

    So I'm not allowed to be skeptical about one study,
    even when I have specific questions that I can pose
    in words of one sylable?

    Yet you want to dismiss the consensus view of a very
    large group of folks in an offhand manner, citing only
    anecdotal reports over short periods of time?

    Perhaps you can understand my confusion, but I'm not sure
    how to approach such an inconsistent view of the value of
    science as a basis for understanding the tangible.


  12. #12
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    I enjoyed this string, very interesting.

    And, Thanks M Fisher...

    I haven't lost any hives this year. I used mint eo's and patties using olive oil..

    MB, I read and understand what you're saying about floride etc. and I still avoid it when I can.

    I am being forced to take medicine (floride) without a doctors prescription in the water that I use for drink, food and bathing.. I'm allowed no choice. This bothers me. I have not missed your point... Don't get me wrong but I do not see the need to my body for the municiple water plants to pour this stuff into my water supply. I have no choice. I can't get unflorinated water into my home.

    Why are they adding floride to our water supply?

    Well we've gone over this, no need to keep at it...

    I will continue to offer plain ole water to my bees little watering hole. They learned where this water hole sits and frequent that little shaded spot continuously. I know they're getting the cleanest water possible and with whatever minerals I think they need.

    Call me goofy. LOL




  13. #13
    jfischer Guest

    Post

    > I am being forced to take medicine (floride)...
    > Don't get me wrong but I do not see the need to
    > my body for the municiple water plants to pour
    > this stuff into my water supply. I have no choice.
    > I can't get unflorinated water into my home.

    As is true in nearly all the developed nations.

    > Why are they adding floride to our water supply?

    To prevent what happened to me from being a nationwide
    problem. I spent lots of sailing from one island to
    another in my teens and 20s, living the life that
    Jimmy Buffet only sang about. As a result, I need to
    swap out nearly every tooth in my mouth at 45. Blame
    a decade of chewing betel nuts with the locals, and
    drinking non-fluorinated water.

    But there is some evidence that fluoride is bad for
    your bees, and a whole pile that says that chlorine
    is a very bad idea, but fluoride and chlorine are
    easy to block with any decent water filter.

    Here's what I said in: http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/SugarReprint.pdf

    "While adding water slows the crystallization process, untreated
    water can contain bacteria that can cause the syrup to ferment
    or become rancid. The good news is that chlorine or chloramine
    in municipal water will kill the bacteria, but the bad news is
    that fluoride in municipal water is said to be toxic to bees over
    time. Water filters can block most of the fluoride and the chlorine
    or chloramine. (Yes, even water requires considerable thought
    in beekeeping.)"

    A strange sensation - I'm quoting... myself.

  14. #14
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    You ARE goofy, Daisy, and it's one of the nice things about you. You're also creative. You've come up with one of the best methods for stopping robbing that I've found.

  15. #15
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    >> AFB spores are found in any hive at any time. But gee, how'd they get there?
    >Even when the gear is new, and the bees came in a package?
    You have staphylococcus bacteria in every human abode. Even if it’s new and even if the people came in a very clean ambulance. How did it get there? Life. The environment is full of it. How do AFB spores get in a hive? They live forever. Bees investigate every place that bees in the preceding hundreds of years have bee. There are spores there.
    >> Tom Webster... said that research has shown that bees overwinter
    >> on honey get less nosema and bees overwitered on DARK honey get
    >> even less.
    >I think that he would be much less
    emphatic if he were asked about this, and I suspect that he
    would have no answer if asked to explain the mechanics of how
    nosema is supposed to be prevented or reduced through doing
    exactly what has been and is done most often in most hives,
    which is to leave the darker "fall crop" as feed for wintering.
    He was NOT emphatic about it. I certainly did not mean to imply that he was. He was almost apologetic about it. He WAS asked about the mechanics of it and he had no answer. I have explained all of this previously in other posts. He also had no explanation as to the mechanics of why darker honey was better than lighter honey.
    Statistical observations are very useful. A mechanism is nice, but to ignore a statistical connection is just as foolish as confusing cause with effect. Certainly it would nice to know a mechanism to avoid the problem of “post hoc ergo proctor hoc” but sometimes you don’t have all the answers but you have a piece of useful information. http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/me...notes/surgery/
    “In 1773 Gordon recommended cleanliness in labour wards and in 1846 Ignaz P.Semmelweiss [image], Hungary, faced a 10-30% mortality in puerperal women particularly if delivered by doctors rather than midwives. He noted that doctors came from autopsies to the deliveries and reasoned that they spread contagion - he insisted on hand washing and dropped the mortality to 1%. However his work was ridiculed and he lost his reason.”
    Here a connection had been made “statistically” but the mechanism was unknown. Because he didn’t have a mechanism he was ridiculed out of the medical profession. Later Pasteur came up with the mechanism. But meanwhile a lot of women died needlessly in childbirth.
    Just because we don’t know the MECHANISM of why honey for winter feed cuts down on Nosema is no reason not to USE this information.
    > Tom's presenation said the spores are basiclly in all hives
    > all the time in some amount
    >Again, where did the spores come from in the first place?
    >Sometimes simple questions can be very revealing.
    We live in a sea of microorganisms. That is reality.
    >> And this disproves what?
    >Disproves the claim that "dark honey" can somehow "cure" or
    prevent nosema.
    I have made no claim that “dark honey” can “cure” nosema. I have merely offered to someone who wishes NOT to use chemicals a method that will CONTRIBUTE to the prevention of nosema. As to the POSSIBLE reasons that honey is better, there is the pH difference between honey and syrup. There is the antimicrobial properties of honey. There are a lot of things in honey in small amounts that MIGHT be the reason.
    >My point is that correlation is not causation.
    If "dark honey" prevented/cured nosema, then there would never
    be a feral colony with nosema, would there? And nosema would
    have never existed about a century ago when "feeding" bees was
    almost unheard of, would it? I hope you now understand why I
    question what you say he said.
    I never said it prevented or cured it I said that bees eating honey get nosema less. Whether this is causative, has not been proven, but since one has to be the cause and one the effect, it’s hard to imagine that less Nosema is the cause of the honey. Nosema has always existed. If nosema was such a deadly disease than all the bees would have died centuries ago. They survived in feral colonies eating just honey and pollen without any Fumidil. So you see why I question the requirement of feeding Fumidil?
    >I honestly can't imagine Dr. Webster saying that at your meeting,
    and not at the TN meeting, giving the same presentation. So while
    I am sure that you are honestly repeating what you thought you
    heard, I'm not at all that what you think you heard is what he
    said (or meant to say).
    And I don’t think you have heard what I said at all either. I think you have read a lot into what *I* said.
    >And if it will make you happy, you
    can call me "Dr. Fischer", but I'm just "jim" to all my friends.
    Doctor of what?
    >> It does matter to some of us what we put in our hives.
    >> If for no other reason than I eat what comes out of my hives.
    >> A microscope is the only SURE way to know it's nosema or
    >> Tracheal mites. But most of us get by without one.
    >Then you missed a VERY BIG point that Tom Webster made, at least
    at the TN meeting. His point was that naked-eye survey had
    far too many "false negtives" to be a reliable test for nosema.
    I agree with him on this 100%. Seen it with my own eyes for years.
    I DO agree with him. You can’t know that you do or do not have Nosema without the microscope. I think it’s a good idea to monitor everything. However, if I’m not going to use fumidil, it’s not all that revealing to know if it’s Nosema or simple dysentery. Either way I will be doing the same thing.
    >> And their solution is small cell comb, honey and pollen for feed,
    >> and disease resistant stock. That is not a single solution, but
    >> it is a self sustainable system for the bees.
    >My problem is that people get all excited about these things,
    talk about them a lot, and then simply disappear from view after
    a year or three. And then I talk with the big boys, the guys
    with thousands of hives, and I ask them what THEY think about
    this apparently much lower-cost way of keeping bees, and I
    get snorts and hoots, and get told that I have "such a great
    sense of humor". So these guys are what? Ignorant? Stubborn?
    I don’t think I ever met a beekeeper who wasn’t stubborn. It is a very big expense to convert a large commercial operation to small cell. They don’t want to make that kind of investment until they are sure of a payoff. So you get lots of snorts and hoots from people who have never tried something. That sounds normal to me.
    I know a lot of people who are doing it. While I have heard people talk about FGMO working or not working, I have not heard anyone doing small cell who said it wasn’t working for them.
    My observations with EHB correlate with the observations of this study of AHB. I have seen capping times of 24 hours early and post capping times of 24 hours early. This is a very significant change in the number of mites infesting a cell and a very significant change in the number of mites reproducing in the cell. http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2..._full_text.htm
    According to the mathematical model in this study that is significant enough to get the mites under control. See the section on post capping times. http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/...Approaches.pdf
    >And then I talk to the researchers, and ask them if they want
    me to write them a check and fund some research on this stuff,
    and they smile, and say "thanks", but they'd rather do research
    that will result in benifits to beekeepers.
    Don’t you find it strange that they aren’t even interested in researching it? I think you’d be surprised at how many people are doing small cell and succeeding.
    >I have too much money tied up in "bees", and too many pollination
    contracts to perform every spring to risk more than a few hives
    on "speculative" approaches.
    And I, for one, am certainly not asking you to.
    >> The last time I tried Apistan it did not work.
    >Then you have "resistant" mites. At last we have Api-Life
    and Surose Octante, so there are now appoved treatments that
    can be alternated with Apistan.
    Yes I did have resistant mites. And that is always the end result of all of the chemical games.
    >> The last time a friend tried Check-mite...
    >Organophosphates? No thank you. I'd sooner burn my hives
    and raise wax moths for fishing bait.
    But this is an approved treatment! This is backed by science! Approved by the EPA and the FDA! Why the sudden change of heart? Do you not always trust the science? Are you sometimes skeptical of science and sometimes have faith in it?
    >> I DON'T see that the "proven" methods are working any better.
    >I'll Call. Read 'em and weep. I have 187 thriving hives.
    I started fall with 188. Thats a 99.5% survival rate.
    Seems to be working fine ("steady as she goes, Mr. Sulu").
    I’m certainly not going to weep. I’m happy for you. But there are also a lot of people using the chemicals with far less success and a lot of people using alternative methods who are both succeeding and sometimes failing.
    >> If some of us are skeptical as to the conclusions of "science"...
    >> ... it is not without basis nor is without precedence.
    >Let me make sure I understand:
    >a) On the issue of "Dark Honey and nosema", you
    make a classic "appeal to authority", tossing
    around Tom Webster's name without any actual quotes
    of his exact words on the subject at hand, and
    chiding me for daring to be skeptical of ONE study.
    You are welcome to be skeptical of anything you want. But don’t accuse me of making this up or deriving it from meditation.
    >b) On some other issues, you claim to be "skeptical of
    science", apparently as a whole.
    “Apparently” is your interpretation. I find that what is actually done in studies is very useful to our overall knowledge. However, it’s obvious from past observation, that the conclusions that are drawn by the “scientists” are often wrong and even often fatal.
    >So I'm not allowed to be skeptical about one study,
    even when I have specific questions that I can pose
    in words of one sylable?
    You are most certainly “allowed” to be skeptical of anything you like.
    >Yet you want to dismiss the consensus view of a very
    large group of folks in an offhand manner, citing only
    anecdotal reports over short periods of time?
    I am not dismissing anyone’s view. You are certainly entitled to yours. A lot of beekeepers on this board, and from observation in my last 30 years in beekeeping, most beekeepers do not like using complex chemical pesticides and antibiotics in our hives.
    >Perhaps you can understand my confusion, but I'm not sure
    how to approach such an inconsistent view of the value of
    science as a basis for understanding the tangible.
    It appears to me that you have quickly classified me and have not bothered to understand my view at all. The use of quotations above were not an accident. I’m quite fond of the scientific method. It has it’s problems. The biggest of which is trying to take into account the complexities of reality while proving one aspect of that reality. Trying to isolate a particular thing without changing something else is difficult. But I have always been in favor of testing things and proving things rather than taking the “conventional wisdom” as gospel.

    My problem with “science” is just that problem. Looking at one small aspect in a small sample over a short period of time does not prove what the long-term effects of that will be. “Science” has often proven to have been wrong when basing long term predictions of safety and efficacy on a short term, small sample study. Quite often the sample is too small to be statistically significant. Quite often the period of time is too short to be statistically significant. Quite often the reality of the situation is more complex than the study takes into account and the researchers aren’t really trying to work out the relationships of those complex factors.

    An example of the complexities and some researchers taking them into account would be the recent research at the University of Nebraska on powdered sugar for mite control. The premise was that since the powdered sugar roll in a jar with a cup of bees gets 90% of the mites you could do the same with the whole hive and get 90% of the mites.

    When they attempted this they found they were only getting a small amount of the mites. So they could have ended there and said that powdered sugar doesn’t work. Instead they tried to figure out why the results of the sugar roll were so much more effective and looked for all the differences. Several more experiments were necessary to figure out the differences. The success of the treatment was all in the details. Many research projects stop short and just conclude that the previous research was wrong and don’t try to figure out where in the details the difference was.

    People often get stuck on a concept that has been proven and are not willing to let go of that to find out if it’s really true. Often to move on we have to let go. The indestructibility of matter was the corner stone of modern chemistry and is how we got from alchemy to being able to manipulate the world in many ways that we could not before. However, we had to let go of that to move on into nuclear physics. The reality is that matter is NOT indestructible. But if I were to suggest that before the nuclear age I would have been forced out of the scientific community. Newtonian physics was a very useful paradigm for predicting and controlling many things. But in the end we had to let go of it to have relative physics.

    Back to my original reason for my original post. I was trying to tell someone interested in alternatives to the chemicals, what we, who are using alternatives to the chemicals, are using. If you would prefer me to present the “conventional view” of “conventional chemicals” I could just as easily do that. But you seem to already know that and that was not her question. That information is easily found in many books. The information I have found here on this forum on how to get back to raising bees without pesticides and antibiotics is harder to dig out and not as readily available.

    The biggest problem most of us face are the Varroa mites.

    I have told everyone on this board time and time again to monitor everything you can and see if what you are doing is working for you or not. Doing counts on your mite drops is essential NO MATTER WHAT METHOD YOU USE. I learned that from the Apistan. I only used it because I didn’t know what else to use and it worked for a few years. But I was not aware of when it failed. If WE (obviously you don’t) want to use alternatives we still have to monitor. The success or failure of any method is in the details and without feedback you can’t know if you are succeeding or failing.

    Blind faith is not a terribly useful Varroacide.

  16. #16
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    Dr. Fischer, or may I call you Jim?

    The most irritating thing about our conversation so far is your constant rewriting of what I say. For some reason, rather than address what I say, you keep addressing what you think I am implying. I assure you, I am saying what I mean and not meaning to imply anything. Here are a few examples from the recent conversation:

    I said:
    "The Terramycin is a preventative for AFB. AFB is everywhere and is a stress disease. Try to prevent stress. If you get AFB you will be faced with the hard choice to burn the hive(s) with AFB or treat depending on the laws in your state and your choices.


    You said I said:
    "This is a highly unusual claim. I know of no published work supporting the conclusion that bees subjected to stress will develop AFB without already having been exposed to the spores that cause AFB. Where do the Bacillus larvae come from, if AFB is caused by "stress"? Is this a case of spontaneous generation?"

    Where did I imply or say anything about a lack of AFB spores? Where did I imply or say that AFB was caused by spontaneous generation? I basically stated that the bees WILL be exposed to AFB because it is in the environment, not that the spores would appear spontaneously. If you wish to discuss how widespread the AFB spores are, that would be addressed in an entirely different manner than implying that I have an irrational belief in spontaneous generation.

    I said:
    "The Fumidil is for Nosema. Again, if you try to prevent stress and leave them honey for the winter they will be less likely to get an outbreak."

    You said I said:
    "the claim that "dark honey" can somehow "cure" or prevent nosema."

    Where did I say anything more than what Tom Webster said in his presentation? Where did I use the term "cure" or the term "prevent"? I said "leave them honey for the winter they will be LESS LIKELY to get an outbreak." and this is precisely no more or less than Tom Webster said. You changed what I said, added what you thought I implied and tried to instead discuss the implication that you added. Believe me I chose those words quite carefully. Again, for those who are unwilling to put fumidil in their hive these are the things they can do to reduce the risk of nosema some.

    I said:
    NOTHING ON THIS SUBJECT AT ALL

    You said I said:
    "Yet you want to dismiss the consensus view of a very large group of folks in an offhand manner, citing only anecdotal reports over short periods of time?"

    When did I dismiss any view of anyone? I have merely presented my view (and the view of many others). It was also the perspective that the original question was asked from, which was how to avoid chemicals. You have again jumped to conclusion that I do not respect your opinion. But I most assuredly understand and respect all your opinions. I simply don't entirely agree with all of them.

    I would appreciate in the future, if we choose to continue this discussion if you would refrain from putting words in my mouth and implying things I did not say nor did I intend to say or imply. If you would instead discuss what I SAID instead of what you THINK I said, it would be much easier and less stressful for both of us.

  17. #17
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    M Fisher, Could you provide me with any other developed country that is adding floride into their water supplies?

    It's use has been banned in Europe. We are about the only country left using it....

    It does not prevent carries...

    With all due respect....

    MB, Consider yourself hugged...

  18. #18
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    Here is a listing of vitimans and their amounts and the symptoms of to little or too much
    http://www.geocities.com/1Leighann/Vitamins1.html

    1.0 - 2.0 ppm is what they bring the amount up to in floridated water. My well water, without any added is about 0.5 ppm. Some places have naturally occuring amounts higher than 2.0 ppm and have to remove it. If you lowered the amount of floride allowed in water then all the municiplaities would have to remove it from the natural water.

    This is the conspiracy theory on it.
    http://www.nofluoride.com/ http://members.aol.com/johnhga286/wakeup9.htm http://www.fluoridation.com/ http://www.enn.com/direct/display-re...39E7E76C7308FB http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/01/113492.php

    The conspiracy theory of the conspiracy theory. (or maybe the truth?)
    http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPr.../fluoride.html

    My dentist is certainly a believer in using floride. He would say that he can pretty much tell by their teeth if someone lived in a community with floride in the water or not. But according to him it is also true that it only really matters for the first year or two of life and not at all after that.

  19. #19
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    Cool

    sounds to as if someone likes to argue or is not reading the whole story, speed reading and controversy do not go together.Get the whole story and speak your mind. never mind what he said she said what is your opinion? state it in no uncertain terms and let it alone. Those of us who read this for fun and info will read into it what we will and use and believe what we will.

    stuart

  20. #20
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    http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/fol...?FolderID=1157

    Martha, notice the letters next to the thymol in the graph ?? whatever that is at the bottom.....

    It takes care of just about everything....

    I used the oil patties last year. I won't know what they'll need this year yet.

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