Buckfast

[Kyle]

I'm raising just one hive right now but I have big plans for the future depending on how well this one does. I started with buckfast bees mainly because i live in Buffalo, NY and conditions tend not to be the best and from the research i did, buckfast are apparently well suited for the northern climate. I was wondering if there is anyone else that has had experience with them and could tell me how they actually are. From my experience with them thus far, I've really liked them but then again I haven't had experience with any other kind either. I also want to get into queen rearing with them and I was wondering if because they are a hybrid and of unknown decent (or so I've heard) that it would make it more difficult to do so. Any other input, suggestions, etc. would be much appreciated.

[Todd Zeiner]

Kyle-

I really like mine. They tend to get grumpy right after the main flow. It's like they are wanting to keep all that honey or something? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Have heard the second generation queens can be real hot. I'm sure it depends on the genetics of your queen. Just keep an eye on them after they swarm. I don't keep my buckfast hive on my back porch. Not that they are bad, they just are not as predictable as my NWC's.

I would try more BF queens if the chance came along.

[magnet-man]

I would forget Buckfast because they have been Africanized in my opinion. If you want a good northern breed I would suggest Carnolans. They are gentle enough that I harvested my crop in short pants last year and only received 1 sting in three days. An added advantage to this breed is the queen shuts down when there is a dearth and starts up again as soon as the dearth is gone. The also go into winter with smaller clusters so they require a smaller amount of stores and the queen starts laying in January. They are less likely to rob than other races.

Sue Colby at Ohio State has developed the New World Carnolan (NWC) http://www174.pair.com/birdland/Breeding/index.html The NWC are the most docile bee that I know of in the Americas. If you really want to see super docile bees check out these pure European carnolans. I lost the link but will post once I find them. . Unfortunately the U.S. does not allow the importing of bee semen.

Do CarnolanÂ’s have a down side? Well there are two. The do swarm more than Italians and they donÂ’t seem to do well in the deep south.

Here are some links
http://www.carniolan.com/uk/caracter.htm
http://www.carniolan.com/uk/exploiter.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carniolan_honeybee


DonÂ’t believe the stuff on R Weavers site about buckfast being gentle. That literature was written years before AHBs reached Texas. Now if you could get buckfast from Europe, which you canÂ’t, that would be a different story. http://www.buckfast.nl/fotos.htm You can't do what these people are doing with Weaver buckfast.

Good luck.

Bill

[size="1"][ May 13, 2006, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ][/size]

[wayacoyote]

> DonÂ’t believe the stuff on R Weavers site about buckfast being gentle. That literature was written years before AHBs reached Texas. ... You can't do what these people are doing with Weaver buckfast.

Bill,
It was 2002 when I spent the day with Benford Weaver. I didn't wear any protective gear all day. Well, I did start out in protective gear, but it only took a few minutes of watching the bees that I realized that it wasn't necessary. In fact, that was when I learned how to work bees unprotected.

Now, I know that the Africans are reported to infiltrate fast with prolific breeding. Is it really true that there are no calm bees coming out of either Weaver operation any more? The times I've called for queens, they were sold out. Who's buying their bees?

As been pointed out here before, we can sample those who post here, but that won't represent a true cross-section of the Weavers' customers.

Waya

[magnet-man]

I am sure that everyone is aware that I am no Buckfast fan. Kyle needs to read the following thread before he decides to breed Buckfast. http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=002225#000000

The times I've called for queens, they were sold out. Who's buying their bees?

Everytime I call the the Hawaii breeders they are out of stock too and have a long waiting list. In short there is a shortage of queens and packages. The shortage is so bad, that the goverment has allowed queens and packages to be imported from Australia.

[size="1"][ May 14, 2006, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ][/size]

[Kyle]

Well, from what I've seen so far my hive hasn't been bad at all. No stings, no nothing. They don't even get upset really even though I open the hive about every 5 days. Though, I've read that every hive is gentle the first year. So are you all experiencing the mean streaks after two years of owning the hive?

[Todd Zeiner]

I'm on my second year with my Buckfast queen from Weaver. They are fine with inspections and also weedeaters and mowers. I only notice a difference when I'm pulling supers. I use Bee-quick just like all the other hives get. There will be 50 bees butting the veil where the other hives only have 5 trying to get me.

That's really the only diff. I will probably requeen this hive with NWC in a few weeks. I never pinch a queen, so she will end up in a retirement nuc.

Like I said before, I would try them agian with no regrets. They produce a lot of honey, are gentle most of the time and have survived with minimal mite treaments.

Kind of like owning a pitbull. You have to know them and be prepared.

[magnet-man]

How long have you had this hive? How many frames of bees do you have? All of my Buckfast were gentle when the hives were small. They became defensive when there were more bees.

I have had bees in my backyard for years and only had problems with what I will call extreme defensive behavior from two types of bees. I consider being stung standing 25 feet to the side of a hive that had not been manipulated for a week extreme defensive behavior. I also consider being followed by more than five bees from the backyard, through a gate into the front yard extreme defensive behavior. I had extremely defensive Buckfast hives the last three years that I had them. What was the other breed? I have a Minnesota Hygienic Italian from southern California that would go after my wifeÂ’s and sonÂ’s dark hair.

Well as some of you know my wife made me move my hives out of my backyard this year. After being stung for about the tenth time this year from this Minnesota Hygienic hive, she went into the back yard and started pushing hives over. She toppled two of my NWC and went to the other side of the yard to topple the Minnesota Hygienic but made a very hasty retreat before she could complete her dastardly deed.

Now what is gentle? I was able to re-stack the two NWC hives wearing short pants, t-shirt and veil and only received one sting. How mad would you be if some giant knocked over your two-story house? My wife did not receive a sting until she went after the Minnesota Hygienic hive. You should have seen her run. It was a sight. She complained that she had gotten stung and I responded, “ Really, I wonder why?”

Well here is the good news. She has agreed to let me bring two hives back to the house as long as they are the two NWC hives that she toppled. I guess she figures if she wasnÂ’t stung then they wonÂ’t sting her in the future.

The only real downside to Carnolans is they like to swarm in the early spring. You really have to practice swarm management with them. Sue Colby NWC seem to do better than the run of the mill Carnolans because if a queen swams she is out of her breeding program.

I have also received very gentle cordovan Italian from McCary Apiaries - (601) 648-2224 but he is very slow in shipping. He also has someone with an apiary with Russians near his mating yard so the bees are not 100% cordovan in color. The only way to get 100% cordovan coloring is through instrumental insemination, island or mountain top breeding.

[size="1"][ May 14, 2006, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ][/size]

[Kyle]

i've had the hive nearly 5 weeks and they've drawn close to 8 frames of comb, 6 of which have brood.

[magnet-man]

Mine were always gentle at this stage. One day you will wake up and they won't be gentle any more but they will produce honey.

[size="1"][ May 14, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ][/size]

[RonS]

When ordering my package bees this spring from R. Weaver, I determined that Italians were the right breed as I live in south TX. Also learned that Italians had a reputation of being gentle. Mine went in a wave. Gentle the first week, extremely aggressive the second and third, now relativel mild. Seems that as the population dropped during comb building and laying, they were too busy to sting me. Now, however, things are building up to a normal population. In the south, I believe we will have to get used to more and more aggressive bees. I read about all of you only wearing a veil, some not even that. I think that you would do that only once at my yard and then exit the area the same as Magnet-man's wife did.

[Ross]

I think weather and flow have a lot to do with it around here. With a flow on, I can open mine without smoke. In August when it's 105 degrees and they haven't had a bloom in 6 weeks, you best be suited up if you want to open them, and smoke is a requirement. Mine are Italian mutts, with some feral and NWC mixed in.

[size="1"][ May 15, 2006, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Ross ][/size]

[Michael Bush]

Do a search on Buckfast. There are many discussions.

[Brent Bean]

I have had Buckfast from R. Weaver and the first year they are everything that that is advertised. But when they supersede their queen they seem to become aggressive. I also have R. Weaver All American Italian , and they winter well and produce good honey crops so far I have no complaints about them being mean. I also have New World Carniolan which I highly recommend, for northern areas we live right along Lake Michigan and the winters can be cold and damp along with Spring, Summer and Fall . They have good mite resistance are disease tolerant and are gentle to work. The are frugal with there stores and will slow down brood laying when nectar slows down which is one of the reasons they seem to winter well. They will also forage when the weather is cold damp and dreary. Check out Sue Colby breeding program from Ohio State University.

[peggjam]

"She toppled two of my NWC and went to the other side of the yard to topple the Minnesota Hygienic but made a very hasty retreat before she could complete her dastardly deed."

Boy, an I would've bought tickets to watch that . I agree that the queens and packages from the south carry more AHB genes than they used to, too the point that I will no longer buy queens from the south, and relie on queens produced from northern stock. I wouldn't even think of breeding Buckfasts, too aggressive for me to have around.

[Kyle]

from the reading i've done in the books and all, the only trait that the NWC have that's better then the Buckfast was the gentleness factor. I've read that they're not as disease resistant and not as tolerant to the northern climates as the buckfast are, or is that just regular carolines?

[magnet-man]

Kyle the problem is that you cannot get real Buckfast in the United States. The Buckfast you can get have been raised Texas where there are warm winters. There are no environmental factors in Texas to encourage good wintering abilities. On the other hand the NWC breeders are from Ohio, which actually has a winter. The Germans are big Carniolan fans and you know how cold it gets there.

I would suggest you contact Tim at Honey Run Apiaries 419-371-1742 and order a queen and compare the two queens and raise queens from the better hive.

Also read the following link.
http://www174.pair.com/birdland/Breeding/Select.html

[size="1"][ May 15, 2006, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ][/size]

[pcooley]

This whole discussion raises a question I have as a new beekeeper: how close can you get to the hive without gear to watch the bees go about their work? I usually sit about three feet from the entrance. My bees are Weaver All-Americans,and so far, they don't show any interest in me, even when I'm in the hive inspecting the top bars, (with my veil on of course).

But I don't want to be taking a risk sitting there three feet from the hive without a veil. Is that too close?

[Brent Bean]

Kyle:

I would have to disagree with what you have read about NWC winter ability. The Buckfast that I did have do winter like polar bears, but my experience with NWC is that they also are very good northern winter hardy bees. I have noticed that they will start forging in colder weather than any other races I have had experience with including Buckfast. I would have been sold on Buckfast if it werenÂ’t for the mean streak in them. Some days they would mug me other days not. The NWC seem to always be easier to work with. NWC are not a new race of honeybees just an improve Carniolan.

[Brent Bean]

Pcoolley:

If the bees have a good nectar flow on they will ignore you, but when the nectar dries up their nature may require you to set further away unless you want to put a veil on.