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Thread: Aistan strips

  1. #21
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    Boy we sure got off the original subject in a hurry!Barry is right ,pick a day when there is some flight then get in there and jerk em out before the bees know what happened.Personally I would just get them out no matter what the weather,but that is just my way ,sometimes you have to take some stings and kill some bees to get things done.
    ---Mike

  2. #22
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    Please don't take this as on opinion on what is better for mite treatment. I don't know. But as far as approval. FGMO is an approved food additive. If it kills the mites, I don't believe it needs approval. Plus, according to the studies that have been done, they haven't found it in the honey anyway. It is inert. It doesn't do anything chemically in a human's system. It is not digested or used in any way.

    I don't know the satus of Oxalic acid as a food additive. I do know that my book of poisonous plants lists anything that has an excess of Oxalic acid as poisonous. Oxalic acid is not inert. It may be that in small amounts it is harmless, but that still may require approval.

  3. #23
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    Oxalic and formic acids are both naturally present in honey in very tiny amounts.Using them as mite treatments when honey is being made no doubt would increase these levels,possibly to the point of being harmful.So anyone using these must be very careful.Coumaphos is approved and tiny residues are allowed in honey as well as other food products.Certainly not an ideal situation.I am sure that FGMO(a petroleum product) is not a natural product occuring in honey,but I agree it is harmless in any quantity that might show up in honey,and the tests have shown no residue anyway.It would be ideal,I just couldnt get the results claimed for it.Increasing the frequency of fogging in late summer theoretically would lower the re-infestation levels IF IN FACT fogging kills the mites,something I am not convinced is true.Experiments need to be done with highly infested hives and sticky boards.Maybe something like count natural mite drop for a week from untreated hives to determine a base level of infestation.When you get an overnight drop of 10 mites start fogging.After maybe 3 weekly treatments you should note an increase in mites dropping(check every morning)Then a final treatment with coumaphos or oxalic to determine if a lot of mites escaped the FGMO.For instance if during fogging the mite drop increased to 150 overnight,that would be a good indicator that FGMO was having an effect(although the sticky board might mess the results as it will trap mites that otherwise might climb back up).But if your final test treatment of oxalic dropped 2000 mites you would know that too many were escaping FGMO to be effective.On the other hand a low mite count would tend to show that it was effective.Im sure there are flaws in this experiment,Im just making it up as I type and I havent had enough coffee yet this morning.Any ideas?
    ---Mike

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Arrow

    Hello -

    Axtmann wrote:
    "how long do you keep bees?"

    Long enough to know I don't know everything

    Axtmann wrote:
    "The Internet is a great thing and all you have to do, go and search und you will find answers for all your questions."

    You may find plenty of answers on the Net, but you would be a fool to believe that they are all facts. We must take as much of the information as we can and examine it all, both pro and con, and try and retain that which will stand the test of time.

    Axtmann wrote:
    "how about your oil fogging is this government approved?"

    Yes, to the degree that it is readily available in stores and suitable for human consumption. Non-chemical methods do not have to be "approved" by our government before we can use them.

    Axtmann wrote:
    "Oxalic Acid is in many plants and we eat them every day."

    This does not make it safe. We are far exceeding the amounts found naturally in plants when putting it into our hives. This is no more natural than FGMO. Using nothing would be natural.

    Axtmann wrote:
    "loggermike worked with FGMO also and you can read what happen to his bees. He is not the only one, but most beekeepers are too proud to tell others when they made a mistake. I often heard, let them made their one experience."

    I am all for letting the chips fall where they may. I have no agenda to profit from and encourage people to share their own experience with any treatment or procedure. I am well aware that Mike did not have positive results on his bees using FGMO. This alone does not disprove or prove anything. It is one persons experience. There are those that are telling of good results from using it. We must keep sharing and asking questions to help us better understand what might be causing the different results.

    You give reference to a study done on FGMO that does not show positive results. Pedro has given results of work done by others showing positive results. The truth is there somewhere but it is not obvious.

    I want to help beekeepers deal with the ailments that face the bees too. However, I seek safe, low impact methods first, and invest my resources to further that cause because I have been down the chemical road and it does not have a pleasant ending. There are alternatives, but they require work from the beekeeper.

    I am merely pointing out that your assertions that FGMO does not work based on a study done, does not make it the final word. I give far more weight to personal experience than to some study, often done with far too few bees in an unnatural setting. The final word is still out on this one.

    Regards,
    Barry

  5. #25
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    loggermike wrote:
    "Unfortunately,most of the hives I tried FGMO on broke down with varroa in late summer.I suppose it may have some value in areas where the bees arent constantly being re-infested,but it certainly did not work here!"

    Mike, did you see Pedro's article in ABJ January issue? He wrote:

    "The road to success during all these years has not been all roses and glory. Of special interest has been discovering why hives that showed few if any mites during the early months of the season would suddenly jump to very high mite drop counts and high incidence of phoretic mites in late July and August. I knew from experience that bees naturally rob their neighbors when weak and ill. It occurred to me that I needed to find an explanation for this sudden rise in mites and furthermore to develop a technique to test it.

    I bought five small vials of automobile touch-up paint and started placing tiny specks of paint on the wings of my bees in healthy colonies. Late that day and the days after, I noticed what looked like a rainbow of colors in test (untreated) colonies. Eureka, here was the source of the sudden upsurge in mite populations in the treated hives. The pilfering bees were not only robbing the honey of the sick hives, but they were also bringing home a different load - mites. This assumption was tested as true in recent years by merely altering the sequence of treatments in test hives, especially this year as shown in the figures in Table 1."

    Could this have been the cause of your bee loss? Did you alter the timing of the application at all?

    Regards,
    Barry

  6. #26
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    I read the explanation given by Dr. R. for late summer collapse caused by re-infestation and I believe it makes perfect sense.I did not increase the fogging frequency,but in hindsight I should have.I only did the recommended timing.Maybe results would have been different with once a week fogging.I hate to totally abandon an approach that would seem to have so much in its favor,so I may try some more experimentation this coming season.What I really need to know is what percent of mites are actually knocked down and die from the fogging.That is the key to stopping the late summer re-infestations.(I am surrounded by thousands of hives at various times of the season,so you can see this is a tough situation)
    ---Mike

  7. #27
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    Oct 2002
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    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
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    Barry, you wrote:
    "FYI, oxalic is not approved for use in the U.S. It may work good, but like all chemicals, it too has a limited life of effectiveness on mites. We are already hearing of oxalic resistant mites from parts of Europe."
    I don't understand, how could an insect develop a resistance to a corrosive acid? As I understand it, the insects suction-mouth part is corroded away by the acid resulting in it starving to death.
    Bill
    It seems to me, resistance is futile.

    [This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited January 05, 2003).]

    [This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited January 05, 2003).]

  8. #28
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    Jun 2001
    Location
    Lyme, NH, USA
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    Michael, thanks for the link to the photos of your very creative hive arrangements. I was surprised to see the small size of the starter strip. What size cells do bees produce when given only a starter strip? Does the size of the cells on the strip have any influence?

  9. #29
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    >Michael, thanks for the link to the photos of your very creative hive arrangements.

    You are welcome. Also thank Barry for posting them.

    >I was surprised to see the small size of the starter strip. What size cells do bees produce when given only a starter strip?

    Unfortunately the answer is "it depends". It depends on the size of cells on the on the strip, and the time of year and the place in the hive. I'm using 4.9mm foundation. If the bees intend it for brood and they are large cell bees (5.4mm or so) they build about 5.1mm or so the first try at regressing. If they are intending it for honey they build it closer to 5.4 or 5.5. The starter helps set the pattern, but in the end they do what they want. I mostly use it to keep the comb straight and centered in the frame.

    >Does the size of the cells on the strip have any influence?

    Sometimes. (see above)

    I am planning on doing more of making my own blank foundation for starter strips with no cells embossed and let the bees do what they want.

  10. #30
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    Jun 2003
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    Pomfret, MD, USA
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    Bullseye Bill wrote:
    >I don't understand, how could an insect develop a resistance to a corrosive acid? As I understand it, the insects suction-mouth part is corroded away by the acid resulting in it starving to death.

    Answer: The same way organisms have developed resistance to high water pressures, extreme temperatures, and toxic chemical levels near vents at the bottom of the ocean...

  11. #31
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    Smile

    Well that’s true, the same way a steelworker gets resistant to liquid steel after 40 years working in a foundry.
    We using oxalic acid since 1978 and still waiting for a resistant but nothing happen. And now with the oxalic vaporizer we have the best results ever.

    “”Answer: The same way organisms have developed resistance to high water pressures, extreme temperatures, and toxic chemical levels near vents at the bottom of the ocean...””

    These organisms are not mites and the development takes in the evolution approx 150 to 200 million years.

    Cuttlefish don’t start with acid treatments if the evolution works faster you might lose your bees.


  12. #32
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    Actually, no one knows how long evolution might take for a given change. It is a misunderstanding of natural selection theory that says that changes, even major ones, only occur over millions of years. In fact, genetic and evolutionary theory simply does not prohibit a mutation occurring that would provide an organism with protection from a substance like oxalic acid in a relatively short amount of time. Is it probable? Perhaps not. However, my argument is simply this: to make a blanket statement that it is impossible for mites to ever build a resistance to oxalic acid is false. And to say that "it hasn't happened yet" as proof that it can't happen at all represents the epitome of bad logic and science. Examples in nature show that many highly developed organisms live and breed happily in far more dangerous environments and substances. We don't know how long it took to develop such resistances.
    What I think people are trying to say when it comes to oxalic acid and other chemical mite controls is this: to put all your eggs in one basket is to risk losing them all. Reliance on chemical agents to try to eliminate such problems always carries with it a whole host of risks and more often than not causes as many problems as it solves.

    Sincerely,
    Wish

  13. #33
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    Quick Follow Up -
    In response to the scenario of the steel worker, this simply does not apply for the following reasons:
    1. A specific individual in a species does not "develop" a resistance. They are either born with a potential defense mechanism or they are not. That is why a steel worker does not develop any resistance to liquid steel over the course of his/her lifetime. However, should a steel worker bear a child with a mutation that renders the child more tolerant of high temperatures, and should over time this trait be selected for, then potentially a resistance in the species could be developed. In addition, it can be argued that evolution is not restricted to simply physical changes, but applies also to behavioural, social, and cultural changes, all of which may give an advanced species the ability (as it clearly has for us!) to work in highly dangerous environments.
    2. Evolutionary changes occur much faster in organisms which reproduce quickly. Bacteria for example, which can double their numbers in a matter of minutes or hours have been shown to develop resistances to adverse environmental conditions extremely fast. Mites, I dare say, reproduce VERY quickly, especially in relation to our birth rates, gestation times, etc.

    Finally, I can imagine any number of ways a mite could develop a resistance to oxalic acid, both physical and behavioral. Excessive mucus production is the most obvious one, and probably would not require a major mutation. I'm sure with a little imagination many more could be thought up.

    Sincerely,
    Wish

  14. #34
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    You briefly touched on this, but resistance is NOT evolution. It is simply that some of a species already has a certain adaptation or ability and others of that species do not. When we apply pesticides that kill all of the ones without the ability to survive that "poison" we instanly shift the population toward those that can survive that.

    In the case of Oxalic acid, it remains to be seen if any of the mites can survive it or not. But if any of them have the ability to survive it, they will live while the others die and pass it on to their decendents. They don't have to evolve this protection they either have it or they don't.

    What Apitstan and Check mite do to a mites system should not be survivable by a mite, but some of them do survive. And they pass that ability on.

  15. #35
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    Question

    so is there resistance to oxalic acid? And can i use it in the USA? SW_TR

  16. #36
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    Swarm trapper I can give you at least 10 addresses from bee institutes in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. You can send your question to all of them but I can tell you right here the answers.
    Oxalic acid has been tested in Germany and is a Varroa treatment since 1979, in Russia since 1980 and in other parts of Europe since round 1982. There is no oxalic acid resistant after over 25 year and there is no resistant possible, same with all the other organic acids. Some plants like Rhubarb have a high percentage oxalic acid to protect them self against bugs and it works for millions of years. Why?? Because the bugs could not get resistant …….so far.



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