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Once more re: hive box reversing

11K views 72 replies 21 participants last post by  Michael Palmer 
#1 ·
Sorry.. I still don't get it.

I read another book last night (First Lessons in Beekeeping by C.P. Dadant) wherein the author recommends reversing the deeps twice in the same season: once in very early Spring and once again just before the main flow.
How did bees manage before we were there to turn there nests upside down repeatedly?

So:
Why?
Is it necessary?
How do you know when?
THank you much.
 
#52 ·
Our colony manipulations are by the frame, rarely by the box.
As the years have progressed, I have "reversed" fewer and fewer boxes in our outfit.
There is the occasion, after a restart for example, that a new queen has layed out the upper brood box with the lower box idle leading into the honey flow.
This we will reverse.
In most other instances, a certain amount of brood may be sacrificed by this crude procedure.
Therefore, brood position is adjusted by the frame.
Pollen needs to be close to the emerging brood and this, (among everything else) is adjusted at the same time.
:cool:
 
#53 ·
Hello. Thanks Harry V. Your very last post[so far] on this thread answered my question. I had a hive[2 deep] that apparently lost their queen in MID-SUMMER but managed to produce their own. After about 3.5 weeks from suspected hatching of queen I thought I should check that bottom super and sure enough it was sparse with eggs or brood while the top was pretty full. I did a "restart/reverse". It worked fine. It was kind of a "no-brainer" decision but it's nice to know that about a problem that isn't discussed in "the books". :cool:
 
#54 ·
Harry: > "Our colony manipulations are by the frame, rarely by the box."
"Therefore, brood position is adjusted by the frame."

I would like to hear a little more detail on your methods, if you don't mind sharing.
How do you adjust the brood frames into the idle box? (I'm assuming that's the lower box) How many frames at once? How often? What kind of things are you looking for?
 
#55 ·
If CB'ing is so great for northern beekeeps in your opinnion
I'm sure I've neither said nor implied that Nectar Management is great for northern beekeepers, Peggjam. It may be that Nectar Management isn't the most productive management style for the north. I've just pointed out, for the open minded among us that may want to give NM a try, that your statement "that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers" is not based on any personal experience you have with Nectar Management. You ask why your opinion matters. It matters to me because I would hate to see someone with your apparent level of enthusiasm for beekeeping pass up a chance to try Nectar Management because you don't think it will work. I certainly don't intend to upset you!

Your opinion also matters due to the fact that another beekeeper from the north may read your statement "that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers" and just give up on the idea altogether, not realizing that you haven't actually tried it.

Walt has asked that I keep on eye on these threads that address Nectar Management and try to answer any questions that I can, and ensure that people wanting to try his methods have the correct information. I'm glad to do it, because I have seen Nectar Management work, and would enjoy seeing others have success with it. More importantly, though, I know Walt would enjoy it. I don't mean to offend you in the process.
 
#56 ·
I’m going to risk pointing out some things that were not initially obvious to me as a newbee with a steep learning curve. I’ve never read Walt’s manuscript, but have read some of his articles and numerous discussions and threads on the topic(including this one). If I’m off base, someone please tell me.

CBing and Nectar Management are not interchangeable terms. Nectar Management may be utilized with or without CBing.

In late winter, the first step in Nectar Management is to break up any honey cap that exists above the brood nest. If a full super of honey (or more) exists, then CBing is appropriate. If the brood nest has moved up into the top box, but a honey cap still exists at the top of that box, then reversing is appropriate. If no honey cap exists, then this step is skipped altogether.

Thereafter, perpetual expansion is encouraged by continually adding boxes of empty drawn comb on top. I believe this is the key concept to Nectar Management (not CBing) and can be practiced in any climate.
 
#57 ·
> "If the brood nest has moved up into the top box, but a honey cap still exists at the top of that box, then reversing is appropriate."

This is where you have to be extremely careful when reversing. There is potential for heavy brood damage if done too soon.

If the top deep has bees and brood, as well as a crown of capped honey still in place, there is a good probablility that there is some brood also at the top of the bottom deep. If you reverse at this point you have split the brood, top and bottom, and left a band of honey in the center of the two boxes. If you get a cold spell or there are not enough bees to cover both areas then there will be some heavy brood losses.
 
#58 ·
Hello Kellbee,

Actually, "Checkerboarding" is what Walt initially called his system. He later changed the name to "Nectar Management." The terms refer to the same system, but you'll find the terms used interchangeably.

Nectar Management involves managing your colonies in such a fashion that the bees go into the buildup with overhead honey. Then this band of honey is broken up with every other frame being replaced with empty comb, and the pulled honey frames are staggered with empty comb in the next box. Empty comb goes above these boxes as required.

As to your specific questions: If there is a super of honey above the brood, Nectar Management, or checkerboarding, can be performed.

If the brood goes to the top of the top box, then Nectar Management is neither necessary or possible. Walt would recommend putting empty comb above this box. If there is an empty box below, then reversal and use of this empty comb as your first box would work well. The caution mentioned by Mike above is important here.

I will try to find out from Walt what his specific recommendation is on your question regarding honey above the brood in the same box, but nothing above. I personally break the honey band up by inserting at least one empty frame in the middle of the brood nest, and place empty comb above that. I've found this to work very well so far, but the Winters are not very harsh where I live. Walt may have a better idea.

I highly recommend getting Walt's manuscript - it'll clear up a lot of information for you. It's a great addition to your library.
 
#59 ·
"Your opinion also matters due to the fact that another beekeeper from the north may read your statement "that CB'ing does not apply to northern beekeepers" and just give up on the idea altogether, not realizing that you haven't actually tried it."

I don't see anyway that I can try it, short of leaving alot of excess honey on, that I could extract and sell, that will really not do much for the bees, just so I can do checkerboarding? As I have pointed out in numrous posts, Walt has also stated the same thing that I have. CB'ing would not apply to northern beekeepers who don't have a honey cap in their hive in early Feb. I don't see what the problem is with interperting what I have stated. In another theard in 101, I detailed what I feel a beekeep would have to do in order to CB, and someone pointed out that all you would have to do is reverse the hivebodies and add a super, I can't argue with that logic. If someone actually thinks it's a good idea to reverse hivebodies in early Feb, then they will have to learn the hard way what this will do to a hive.

The only thing I can add to this is if it is so important for northern beekeeps to CB, then anyone who wants to do so, go do it. I will not be doing it as I feel that it is inapporate for my operation to consider this as an option, or that it would add anything useful to my operation.


"If the brood goes to the top of the top box, then Nectar Management is neither necessary or possible. Walt would recommend putting empty comb above this box. If there is an empty box below, then reversal and use of this empty comb as your first box would work well. The caution mentioned by Mike above is important here."

This is your statement, define how anyone in the north would be able to avoid this, without leaving on extra supers? I only run a two deep hive in the winter, that is more than enough for the bees to contend with. The bees and brood are always in the top box in early Feb, there is no honeycap to checkerboard, and I wouldn't even if there was, as it would remove it from the reach of the cluster, and could in fact cause the hive to starve. All thay so I can CB??? I don't think so.
 
#60 ·
Hey Peggjam,

I understand that you don't want to try it, and I hope that however you manage your colonies, you get great results! I'm just excited about this and enjoy helping Walt make sure the information is available. My only goal here is to avoid people getting the impression that it can't be done in the north. Whether or not it is a good way to go can only be found out by giving it a try if one is so inclined.

To answer your question as to how to avoid having brood to the top, you would have to (1)leave honey on in the Fall as you mention, or (2)you could read Walt's message that you posted earlier where he describes how you might be able to keep the bees in the bottom box (leaving you with a box of honey above) and give that a try:

When northern beekeepers learn that the bees did not eat their way into the upper box in early winter, some of this flap will go away. The cluster consumes very little honey in early winter. Most of the bees are in a state of semi-suspended animation. Like other insects in hibernation, they require little food intake in that state. Honey is used as fuel in the cluster to provide heat, but if the band of insulating bees is adequate, very little honey is needed.

Here’s what happens in Yankeeland: In October, when northern frost/freeze weather knocks out field forage, the colony stills has substantial brood. As the brood emerges, there is no nectar to fill the brood nest. (In my area the colony normally does). The colony “knows” better than to try to winter on empty comb. They need the fuel. They relocate the cluster up into the upper deep on solid capped honey. The bottom deep is abandoned in early winter. This occurs some time after the beek’s last hive opening, on a mild day, and gives the impression that they ate their way into the upper deep. Feeding is iffy in mostly full time clustering weather – they need cluster-breaking weather to move the feed. When northern beeks learn to feed simultaneously with brood nest closeout, the bees will likely start winter brood in the lower box. Once brood is started they are locked in place and upward movement is limited to expansion.
 
#61 ·
"I understand that you don't want to try it, and I hope that however you manage your colonies, you get great results!"

I don't think I ever said that I didn't want to try it, just that it was not feasible. Bring some hives up, i'll set up a yard for you and you can try it, and see what you think.

"I'm just excited about this and enjoy helping Walt make sure the information is available. My only goal here is to avoid people getting the impression that it can't be done in the north. Whether or not it is a good way to go can only be found out by giving it a try if one is so inclined."

So was I......until I came to the bare truth, that it would not be feasible. Yes, I say it does not apply to northern beekeepers...and that is because it just is not feasible. We all feed our bees with the intention of having the bees fill the broodnest as the brood hatches, we already do that. The cluster still ends up in the top brood chamber, leaving no honeycap to checkerboard. I think if someone truely wanted to CB they would need to leave a full super of honey on to get it done. Hives in the north need alot of food to get through the winter. They keep the center of the cluster at 90+ degrees, and that takes alot of energy. Our hives typically go into winter with weights of 135-160#'s, that's about all these hives are going to hold.
 
#62 ·
If I could, Peggjam, really, I would. It would be fun. Unfortunately, my real job, family, bees, etc. currently would prevent me from managing hives that far away.

It would be a real learning experience for me. It would be fascinating to observe the differences in trying this up there! I'll pass your offer on to Walt - who knows? maybe he'll bite!

It seems that in trying to ensure you had correct information that I have really aggravated you, and for that I apologize. I really do understand what you're saying, and after three plus years working with Walt I really do understand Nectar Management. I spoke to Walt today, explained what we've been discussing the last few days, and asked him to get to a computer and read through it when he gets a chance, and chime in if he wants to. He's a little better at the written word than me!
 
#63 · (Edited by Moderator)
#64 ·
My understanding of Walts system (I bought his manuscript, great reed.) is that you cb your frames when they become full not just first thing in the spring. If in the spring you put on an empty box over your single deep or double deep, when that box becomes full is when you cb. My understanding is that when this box becomes full and the bees start to backfill the brood nest as the brood emerges, this is one of the signals to start the swarming process. By cb this box when full it stops the backfilling of the brood nest. Traditionally you would just slap on empty boxes. But since the weather may still get very cold in the spring the bees are reluctant to cross the honey dome that they created from the first spring flow. Cb breaks the dome; they don’t start to backfill the brood nest and hopefully stop the swarming process.
 
#65 ·
Hello Mac,

Walt has not found it necessary to checkerboard honey/nectar more than once in his area. After the intial checkerboarding manipulation, he needs only to keep adding empty comb to stay ahead of the expanding brood nest. He tries to maintain two shallow supers of empty comb overhead.

In your area, you may find it beneficial to checkerboard a second time - I sometimed need to do so where I live (Mobile, AL).

My understanding is that when this box becomes full and the bees start to backfill the brood nest as the brood emerges, this is one of the signals to start the swarming process.
Rather than seeing backfilling as a signal to the bees to begin the swarming process, Walt sees it as an intentional, final step in the colony's swarm plan. Backfilling begins when the colony has expanded the brood nest to its limit as defined by the honey reserve. The purpose of the backfilling is to reduce the size of the broodnest so that it will be manageable by the reduced workforce after the swarm departs. Checkerboarding the overhead honey seems to distort their perception of the reserve and causes the brood nest to expand into, and often through, the area where this honey is stored.

After the initial checkerboarding manipulation in my area, Walt and I have observed that at some point the bees in some colonies begin fattening an area of nectar storage cells above the brood dome to honey depth with light wax, something that doesn't occur where Walt lives. I suspect that, due to the longer season, some colonies are able to attempt to reestablish a honey reserve and cast a reproductive swarm. In these situations I do checkerboard a second time to avoid this happening.
 
#66 ·
Although the latitudes may be similar, upstate NY and the northwest coast do not have even remotely similar timing of necter flows. OR is a milder climate with very early blooming fruit trees, few late frosts and relatively little of the oak/maple (formerly cheasnut)forests that define the northeast. I have tried necter management in PA and found it of limited use here, and only with some colonies. Our climate is significantly warmer than most of NY state (our frost date is usually about May 26)

[ December 28, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Aspera ]
 
#67 ·
To All,

My reaction to Roy’s first printout was that you folks are COMING ALONG, but you are not GETTING ALONG very well

To be sure, beekeeping is a complex subject. Some things that affect techniques of management are region of the country, forage in that area, and the development timeline of the bees responding to those variables. In addition, the age of the colony affects their objectives for any given season. A pending article (maybe April) treats the subject of the differences between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year colonies. We’ll come back to this later – first, a few general comments.

Don’t get hung up on February. Yes, I do my thing in Feb. when my colonies are in full bore build up. March here is the swarm prep season to release a swarm about April first. Peggjam’s bees are struggling in Feb. to offset fall bee loss to maintain cluster size. I would guess western N.Y. bees don’t get into full bore build up until April – about two months behind the schedule here. My Feb. is Peggjam’s April.

A good reference for regional affects is the hardiness zone charts available at your country extension office. Connie Krochmal had one in her Nov. BC article as it applied to fruit trees. Although small variations exist between her Arbor Day Foundation chart and the ones I use, there is a wealth of info in hers. The zone bands are color-coded from north to south, in 10 degree increments of average annual low temps. Those bands are fairly uniform, north to south in the middle of country where the polar air descends from central Canada. But ocean influence affects them greatly at extreme east and west. Wade might be surprised to find that Eugene OR is on the line between zone 8 and 9. Nine is near tropical and moving east, we see Z5 in the mountainous areas. That’s the same difference we see from gulf coast Louisiana to northern Illinois. Latitude is only part of the picture. Elevation is significant. The higher elevations get much colder.

I live in the lower edge of Z6. For those of you who think Alabama (6 miles south) is the “deep” south, think again. Z6 swoops eastward and northward to include most of Pennsylvania. We get snow and ice, for a short period. Southern Alabama, where packages and queens are produced is in Z8. (Coastal warming) I thought I made it plain in my manuscript where I was located, but didn’t make it plain in application for other areas.

I believe that the bees key on forage availability. It could be other things such as day length, temperature average, etc. Nobody knows. But I see a speeding up with a mild, late winter, and a slowing down with late freezes in their development schedule. The key milestone in their development schedule is reproductive cut off. I may be the only person in that world that believes in that milestone, but it is obvious when you know what to look for. Swarm prevention, “main” flow storing, brood nest expansion or contraction – all are affected by the timing of repro cut off.

The differences in internal operations of the colony by age of existence is also important. First year colonies are motivated by establishing wintering requirements. They either fulfill those requirements, or they perish in their first winter. Multiple priorities include building comb, rearing replacement bees, accumulating winter stores, and feeding the colony in parallel. Tough assignment.

It doesn’t matter whether the starter is a split, package, natural swarm, observation hive or nuc. All are in a live or die struggle. Operations are tailored to get the job done. The natural swarm is best prepared for this task. They left the parent colony with the best mix of talent to make a go at it. Packages, splits, or observation hives are at the mercy of the beek responsible. There is no way he can select the proportions of age groups to insure the right mix. Nucs are typically splits with enough age to organize the work force. They fare better.

Second year colonies have two options. If they get fully established, by filling their cavity with comb and stores, behave much like 3rd year colonies. But if they perceive that they didn’t get it done in their 1st year, they can double clutch back down into the establishment mode. To do this they develop wax-making capability in the early season – well before the third year colonies. They can still swarm if they complete swarm prep requirements in the accelerated mode. And that’s the objective of every overwintered colony. (Generate a reproductive swarm)

3rd year colonies that are fully established dedicate build up to reproduction. If they are strong enough and forage supports their needs, they are successful in swarming.

The sequence of steps in colony spring development is very important. The colony builds brood volume, starts swarm preps, rears house bees, and starts main flow storing on a predictable schedule. Repro cut off is the change in objectives from swarm ambition (prep) to rearing house bees for the main flow.

Where, on their schedule that manipulations are performed does make a difference.

The interaction of the above general info means that there are a multitude of variations in colony reaction to the beek’s meddling in their business.

Another unpopular opinion is that the queen is given credit for judgments she doesn’t make and preferences she doesn’t have. Those credits pervade this thread. The queen has one judgment to make, and that’s left to her because only she makes it. She decides whether to lay a fertile or an unfertile egg, based on cell size. Where and when to lay are controlled by her court. She is induced to lay in cells which her daughters have prepared for eggs. When the steering committee (court) has no need of her services, she can be found lumbering aimlessly over empty comb with no interest.

“Expansion” has two meanings in this thread. Overwintered brood nest expansion takes place in late winter and lasts until approximately last frost timing for your area. Any colony strong enough to reach maximum, safe consumption of honey reserves prior to last frost timing, starts swarm preparations by reducing brood nest volume. Reduction can start 3 to 4 weeks prior to last frost timing for the swarming colony and generally close to last frost timing for the remainder of colonies, that do not reach swarm commit prior to that time. Last frost timing correlates well with apple blossom timing in the wooded East.

The brood nest expansion stops at repro c/o (last frost timing) and brood nest reduction starts. At the beginning of the main flow the colony has developed wax making capability to support honey storage. They need wax to extend cell depth and cap cured nectar. And they want to fill their space to the top with honey. For the main flow storing, they will draw foundation to support filling the overhead space. That’s a different kind of expansion from brood nest expansion. Call it anything you like, but let’s not overlook the difference, and mix them up, indiscriminately.

The subject of this thread is “Hive box reversing.” Although you folks have wandered away from the subject in several directions. I will try to limit my comments to that manipulation. That subject is complicated enough without discussing the tangents. A few general statements of opinion based on observation, are offered to start:

1. In late winter an “empty” below the cluster should be reversed to put that box in a position to be used for brood. The colony wants to grow upward in that season to take advantage of heat rise from the cluster. There is little advantage for doing it prior to field nectar availability. The colony generally will not populate the raised empty with brood until nectar is stored in it first. The nectar is consumed to feed the colony in the shape of the expansion dome. When that nectar is consumed, and the cells prepared for eggs, those cells are filled with eggs in a batch. This gives the impression that brood nest expansion just jumped into the raised empty. Don’t ask me why the colony needs nectar in those cells first to condition them for brood. That’s not something that can be determined by observation. However, it is consistent with consumption of honey for brood nest expansion.
2. Hive body reversal is the swarm prevention manipulation most recommended in the literature. Reversal for swarm prevention is not generally understood for its effects. It’s definitely not for keeping the brood volume growing upward. The reverse is true. It causes the brood volume to grow downward in a left-handed way. Assuming a double deep, reversal early as in 1. above, both hive bodies are essentially filled with brood. At that time, the colony starts backfilling the upper chamber from the top down. If they complete backfilling, swarm commit is signaled by starting swarm cells. To prevent backfill to proceed to that point, reverse hive bodies. What this does is cause the colony to start over in backfilling from the top because the raised lower had brood to the top. The bees want the nectar of backfill above the brood – if they swarm that nectar will be cured and capped for over-wintering honey. What was the top box is now the bottom. As a result of the first (1. above) reversal that box would normally have a dome of brood in the lower part, and nectar above the brood and in the surrounding dome shoulders. This nectar above the dome and in the shoulders of the dome is the swarm prep reserve if left alone ( Rebuilt with nectar instead of capped honey.) When that box is placed on the bottom they will convert the reserve by consumption to brood, and again have brood to the top bars through the brood nest. They don’t want their reserve sandwiched between brood volumes. This expansion of the brood nest in the lowered box is taking place concurrently with brood nest reduction by backfilling in the raised box.

To be effective as a swarm prevention manipulation, the process must be repeated at two to three week intervals until reproductive cut off. Brood of all ages in the raised box slows backfilling pending brood emergence. But at the end of the 3 week worker brood cycle the colony is back where they want to be – ready to commit to swarm by starting queen swarm cells. Note that Peggjam reverses early to put the empty back into service and resorts to some other technique later for swarm prevention.

3. Prevention of reproductive swarms by periodic hive body reversal does not come without potential overcrowding swarms. Those late swarms can result from depriving the colony of their natural population control of brood nest reduction. Periodic reversal results in more brood volume through the swarm prep period than the colony would have if permitted to do it their way. The additional population generated by excess brood volume can generate an overcrowded swarm if space is not added overhead early in the sequence. I suspect that reversals are the cause of after swarms (pure conjecture). If the colony doesn’t balance population in proportion to stores and space with the primary overcrowding swarm, they can fine-tune with after swarms of diminishing numbers of bees. This conjecture is based on not seeing after swarms in my area when the colony is permitted to swarm – doing it by their natural format. The literature generated in the northeastern tier of states comes from the same area where periodic reversals are favored for swarm prevention.

Had enough? One more!

4. Under some circumstances the colony will expand the brood nest downward into empty comb. Let me describe one case where multiple colonies in the same outyard did it in unison. Raising of an empty on the bottom in late winter was delayed on several colonies because they were, collectively, using the upper edge of comb in the lower “empty” for feed pollen. The feed pollen was supporting full frames of brood in the upper across the gap between boxes. To avoid separating their feed pollen from brood by raising that feed pollen to the top, the first reversal was postponed. About half the colonies with delayed reversal expanded the brood nest downward to fill the lower empty with brood. They did it the same way they expand into empty comb overhead – filling it first with nectar, and displacing the nectar with brood in a batch. Storing nectar below the brood nest is grossly out of character for the species, but I suspect that was a case of having some time in the vegetative development schedule. Believe me – the colony “knows” where they are on the season schedule (Ques unknown.) Speeding up or slowing colony development was mentioned in the lead in to this blurb. I believe that those colonies that elected to expand downward were ahead of schedule. Instead of marking time restricted to the upper hive body, and limiting swarm population to what could be generated in that space, they used the time to enhance swarm population. If that was true, it’s another unreported gimmick in their survival traits. Who knows what other gimmicks lurk in their genes?

I may address other side issues in this thread when I get back home in mid Feb.

Walt Wright
 
#68 ·
Thanks Walt for the time and effort spent to write that out for us. I'm astounded by the depth of understanding of bee activity in the hive, that you are willing to share.

Also, thanks Walt's son-in-law for the effort you expended to get Walt involved.

Walt is an obvious candidate to be immortalized in the ABC XYZ of Bee Culture. If he doesn't wind up in there, its just not right.
 
#69 ·
All,

Reviewing what Roy posted on 29 Dec, there was a timing reference not clearly stated. The last frost date of regional weather, the repro c/o of the bees development schedule, and apple blossom of the vegetative season development all come together here in the first week of April. I used those references interchangeably in the blurb, and regret any confusion it may have caused.

Walt
 
#71 ·
Longarm asks:
I read another book last night (First Lessons in Beekeeping by C.P. Dadant) wherein the author recommends reversing the deeps twice in the same season: once in very early Spring and once again just before the main flow.

Walt replies:
To be effective as a swarm prevention manipulation, the process must be repeated at two to three week intervals until reproductive cut off.

Hafta reply to this topic. And, remembering the all beekeeping is local...

Reversing brood chambers is a good swarm control measure. By reversing the brood chambers at the beginning of the first good flow...Dandelion in my area...allows the queen to move up onto empty comb that was formerly at the bottom of the hive. Bees and queens like to move up...that's their nature. While they will move down, if forced to by incoming nectar, they don't want to. So, without reversing, the bees establish their broodnest in the top. Then as nectar comes in from the first flows, the bees of course, place it in the top. But, the bees are trying to expand their broodnest. And, nectar is coming in. And where do they place that nectar? At first, they place it around the fringes...empty comb space around and above the brood. This space is quickly filled. Then where do they place the incoming nectar? It won't go below the cluster, but rather within the cluster.

They place the incoming in cells where brood is hatching. Now, with an expanding broodnest, this spells trouble. Think of the brood rotation cycle. The queen lays. The eggs hatch, the larvae are fed, and eventually capped. When the brood hatches from capped cells, what goes on with those cells? They are cleaned and polished, in preparation for the queen to re-lay in those cells. That is where the queen would rather lay her next round...dark brood comb where brood has recently hatched.

But, there is incoming nectar...with no place to go! Where will the bees place it? In the cells where brood has just hatched, and before the queen has layed her next round. So, there is competition for comb space. While the queen is wanting to lay eggs in her favorite place, the bees are placing nectar there first. To me, that is one of the main triggers for swarming...nectar being placed within the broodnest, where the queen is trying to find a place to lay eggs.

That's where reversing comes in. It places empty comb space at the top, so the cluster can expand upwards. The queen has comb in which to lay, and the bees have a place to put incoming.

This is great...for awhile. Eventually, the same thing happens. And, the same competition for comb space goes on. Should the colony be reversed again? And again? And again?

I used to do that. Didn't seem to matter, because the colony eventually got back to the same place...competition for comb space. And, just how is a beekeeper with a large apiary supposed to reverse every colony, multiple times? Great if you have one backyard apiary. Not possible with many apiaries...not and get any other bee work done. Not and have a back that will allow you to stand up straight! "Beekeeper Back", don't ya know.

So, I had to change my approach to reversing and broodnest management. Rather than reverse my broodnests before and after Dandelion, I changed.

At the very start of Dandelion bloom...no flow, but bloom...I place two supers on the hive. Acts similarly to reversing. The cluster can move up. I don't use excluders. As nectar starts to come in, the bees now have a place to put it. Of course, the queen can move up...the cluster can move up. And many times they do. If she wants to, she will lay in the bottom super. I don't mind that, as I can change that later.

Once the flow starts, I reverse the broodnest...on the flow, not before it. This again allows for upward movement of cluster and queen. If needed, I add another super, always maintaining some empty comb above the cluster. Always giving them the chance to move up. When reversing at this point, some colonies will have young queen cells started, or eggs in queen cups. All must be removed...ALL!

Most colonies will quit swarming preparations at this point. It seems to me that once the bees are gathering honey, and the queen has a place to lay, and the bees have a place to store nectar, tha swarming preparations cease.

Of course, this is not the case with all colonies. Some will continue to make swarm preparations. This is where the practice of multiple reversals of the brood chambers comes in. If it works once, then why not twice or three times?

Ok. reverse again. Does this stop all of them? No. And will they all swarm if they aren't reversed a second or third time? No. Should you reverse every colony, just because some number of them don't respond to reversing once, and proper supering? I don't think so.

I believe swarming is a requeening method that some colonies use. You know...those colonies that will swarm, no matter what you do. I also believe that reversing before the main honey flow results in loss of honey in the supers. Why would bees place incoming in the supers, when there is empty comb space between the cluster and the supers? In this case, I believe they will place a significant portion of the flow into the top of the broodnest. Honey not placed into the supers is lost production.

What to do with those colonies that don't respond to one reversal and timely supering? Pay attention to what the bees are telling you. They are attempting to requeen. Ablige them. Requeen the colony.

I think I should say, that splitting a swarmy colony...removing a nuc...is one successful swarm control method. Most will give up swarming after being split and empty combs added. But, splitting also reduces the colony population. It can take several weeks for a split colony to rebuild to full strength...if they actually ever do. Such splitting will result in loss of honey production from early flows. To make good honey crops, you need Bees, bees, and more bees. As we all know, one colony of 60,000 bees will make more honey than two colonies with 30,000 bees each. Keeping your colonies at peak strength, and addressing swarming in those that refuse to quit swarming preparations, will result in colonies being ready for a flow when it comes along.

Again, I'll say...all beekeeping is local. The flow patterns and progressions that Walt experiences in Tennesee, are not the same as I experience in Vermont. But, I think that, in theory, it is all the same. Maintain your colonies at top strength, and work with your bees...not against them. That's how you make honey.
 
#72 ·
"I place two supers on the hive. Acts similarly to reversing. The cluster can move up. I don't use excluders. As nectar starts to come in, the bees now have a place to put it. Of course, the queen can move up...the cluster can move up. And many times they do. If she wants to, she will lay in the bottom super. I don't mind that, as I can change that later."

Thanks for your interesting posts, Mike. Question about reversing on the dandelion flow: Say the queen has gone up into the honey supers, and you reverse the brood boxes lower in the hive. Then she is still running around in the supers and the reversal isn't affecting the area where she is laying. (She still ends up competing with the nectar storage, only higher in the hive.) Even if you find her and put her down, isn't she apt to just run back up?

With so many colonies, you don't have time to hunt her down and place her down in the reversed chambers, below, and you don't use excluders. How does this work out, then, generally? And should you find q. cells, do you then spend time breaking the whole hive down to find and destroy them?

When finding swarm cells well underway I have sometimes (when too short on time) just moved the whole hive to another stand. They then immediately tear down all q cells themselves, and the field bees join adjacent colonies. It is not ideal, of course -- the moved colonies take weeks to develop a strong field force again, but at least they aren't in the trees.

I have also tried dividing the brood nest upon discovering q cells -- just putting the upper brood box up above the supers, above a screen board which provides the upper unit with an entrance. Doing this, the queen most times ends up in the top unit. The idea was for the upper unit to tear down any q cells (which they did), the lower unit to rear a queen, and both to be reunited after swarm season, around 1 July for the main flow. Easy. No queen hunting. Reliable.

This was great in theory but...
I was dismayed to discover that the lower units would swarm... and cast repeated afterswarms! as the virgin queens emerged. The swarms emerged with the virgins. It was a consistent result among the 8-10 colonies I tried this on. It seems there was such a strong field force, it caused an imbalance and this caused the swarms to be cast. Had this not been the case, the plan would have worked out great. Oh well...
 
#73 ·
>Question about reversing on the dandelion flow: Say the queen has gone up into the honey supers, and you reverse the brood boxes lower in the hive. Then she is still running around in the supers and the reversal isn't affecting the area where she is laying. (She still ends up competing with the nectar storage, only higher in the hive.) Even if you find her and put her down, isn't she apt to just run back up?

She goes down to lay where the brood is hatching. There is only a bit of brood in the supers, while most is in that top brood box that you reverse down. She will in most cases abandon the supers as nectar is stored there.

>With so many colonies, you don't have time to hunt her down and place her down in the reversed chambers, below, and you don't use excluders. How does this work out, then, generally?

As I said, she will go down. Once there is honey in the supers...especially the top one, and even if there is still some brood in the bottom super, you don't need an excluder. When you add the third super...either at reversal or soon on the next round, reverse the first two supers, and add the third on top. This places the super with honey below the super with brood. The queen will rarely cross over the super full of honey to lay in the super with brood.

>And should you find q. cells, do you then spend time breaking the whole hive down to find and destroy them?

You bet I do. I check every frame by shaking off the bees and checking for cells and cups. These are destroyed. One exception...when the cells are older, sealed cells. At this point, it may be a mistake to cut out the cells. You have to determing first, if the colony has swarmed. If you cut the cells, and they have swarmed...colony is doomed.Probably better at that point to make splits from the hive, using the queen cells nto allow the bees to rear a new queen.

>When finding swarm cells well underway I have sometimes (when too short on time) just moved the whole hive to another stand. They then immediately tear down all q cells themselves, and the field bees join adjacent colonies. It is not ideal, of course -- the moved colonies take weeks to develop a strong field force again, but at least they aren't in the trees.

That's a long accepted method of swarm control. But, as you say...it takes weeks for the colony to build back up. That means lost honey. I find that when supered, reversed, cells cut, supered...the colony is into the honey flow and the vast majority won't swarm. Puting the supers on before the Dandelion flow takes the pressure off. So, when reversing is done, if there are cells started, most times they are very young larvae, or eggs. Pretty easy to stop swarming in these.

>I have also tried dividing the brood nest upon discovering q cells --
>This was great in theory but...
I was dismayed to discover that the lower units would swarm... and cast repeated afterswarms!

If you would place the queen in the lower box, cutting out all the cells, and make a nuc from the top box and leave it above your screen, or as I do...a solid inner cover. Things might be better. Of course you have to remember that the bottom gets the field bees, and must be supered accordingly.

There are lots of different things you can try, to control swarming. I prefer to use methods that keep my colonies as strong as possible. As long as they have only young cells, and you address the caise of them wanting to swarm, you can be successful most of the time. It's when you're late getting there, and the cells are old that there is a problem. Don't be late!
 
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