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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Twin Cities, MN
    Posts
    133

    Post

    I have two packages of carniolans on order and decided to go with a third package. My supplier only has italians remaining, so I ordered one. How might I want to manage the italians differently than the carniolans? What can I expect.

    Just curious, but which do you prefer?

    Thanks.

    Ron
    Butterchurn<br /><br />Diplomacy is the art of saying \'Nice doggie\' until you can find a rock. <br /><br />Will Rogers

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,408

    Post

    The Italians will raise more brood over a longer period of time. They will need more winter stores. They will winter on a larger cluster.

    The Carni's will raise a lot of brood in a short time, but they do it more sporadically. They will raise brood in the spring from a very small cluster and build up quickly. They will drop off quickly when the flow stops and they will drop back in the winter to a very small cluster.

    I don't think (and I'm sure some will disagree with me) that Carni's are more prone to swarm, but they can build up population more suddenly and surprise you with how fast they run out of room. And, of course, then they swarm.

    For my climate I would prefer the Carni's. For the south, maybe the Italians would do better.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Macon, GA USA
    Posts
    942

    Post

    A lot of folks here in GA (including some larger operations) keep Carniolans. Last year I experienced one of the major complaints about Italians. The hives grew like gangbusters and made a lot of honey. Then they promptly consumed almost all of it during the midsummer dearth because their brood rearing never slowed down. Apparently Carniolans cut back very well during a dearth. If I don't outright switch to Carnies, I will cage or remove the Italian queens in mid to late June to disrupt the brood rearing. This will also probably help with mites and make any treatments more effective. Then let them build up for the fall flow and overwintering (if you can actually call what we have a winter).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,329

    Post

    The fact that Carnies cut back after the flow can be a problem with Italians in the same location. When the Carnies cut back severely, they are prone to being robbed out by the Italians. If you go that way, be prepared to use entrance reducers after the flow.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,507

    Post

    There also seems to be a difference in how they handle mites. Don't know if the same applies in North American stock as this is from Brazilian work. From the abstract of the paper that's linked at the bottom:

    "The brood cell infestation rates (percentage cells infested) were significantly higher in the Carniolan-sized comb cells (19.3%) than in the Italian and Africanized cells (13.9 and 10.3%, respectively). The Carniolan-sized cells also had a significantly larger number of invading adult female mites per 100 brood cells (24.4) than did the Italian-sized cells (17.7) and the natural-sized Africanized worker brood cells (15.6). European-sized worker brood cells were always more infested than the Africanized worker brood cells in the same colony..."

    http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2..._full_text.htm
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Milford, MI
    Posts
    328

    Post

    As you noticed I'm sure, the article emphasizes and makes numerous reference to the size of the cells, diffirentiating between the races of bees only by their natural size.

    The last sentence in the paragraph you posted clearly says larger cells were always more infested than smaller cells. Where in the article did it make reference to the breed of Carni's being inferior in the fight against Varroa?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,507

    Post

    Where in the article did it make reference to the breed of Carni's being inferior in the fight against Varroa?
    It doesn't as far as I can tell. It says that larger cell size resulted in more infestation. The Carni comb was larger and more infested than the Italian, which itself was larger and more infested than the Africanized comb.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    So, what is said in the paper is that beekeepers
    with AHB don't have varroa problems.

    Somehow, I don't think that this is a "solution"
    that would go over well in the US and Canada. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,408

    Post

    The study is with AHB on different sized cells. The "carni" size was just drawn on foundation by some carnis. It's not the size carnis draw. I've got carnis that draw 4.9 to 4.6mm cells all by themselves with no foundation.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,507

    Post

    The study is with AHB on different sized cells. The "carni" size was just drawn on foundation by some carnis. It's not the size carnis draw. I've got carnis that draw 4.9 to 4.6mm cells all by themselves with no foundation.
    Well, now I'm confused.

    "Three types (sizes) of brood combs were placed in each of six Africanized honey bee colonies: new (self-built) Africanized comb, new Italian comb (that the bees made from Italian-sized commercial foundation), and new Carniolan comb (built naturally by Carniolan bees)."

    What is "Italian-sized" commercial foundation?
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Milford, MI
    Posts
    328

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Berkey, OH, USA
    Posts
    1,486

    Post

    Ohio Queen Breeders have a good description of the Italian v. Carniolan bees on their web site.

    http://www.ohioqueenbreeders.com/karnica.htm

    They also discuss the SMR gene which they believe will work to Suppress Mite Reproduction.

    http://www.ohioqueenbreeders.com/SMR.htm

    The SMR gene is transferrable between different races of bees however.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Eden, NC
    Posts
    285

    Post

    It has recently been found by Marla Spivak that the Smr trait is a varroa specific hygenic behavior. This has been comfirmed by John Harbo and Jeffrey Harris in an article that I recently read. I will try to locate this and post where it can be read.
    A good combination for a queen is a Minnesota Hygenic gueen instrumentally inseminated with sperm from Smr Drones. You get the best of both worlds, and the traits are inheritable.
    Frank Wyatt

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