I have two packages of carniolans on order and decided to go with a third package. My supplier only has italians remaining, so I ordered one. How might I want to manage the italians differently than the carniolans? What can I expect.
Just curious, but which do you prefer?
Thanks.
Ron
Butterchurn<br /><br />Diplomacy is the art of saying \'Nice doggie\' until you can find a rock. <br /><br />Will Rogers
The Italians will raise more brood over a longer period of time. They will need more winter stores. They will winter on a larger cluster.
The Carni's will raise a lot of brood in a short time, but they do it more sporadically. They will raise brood in the spring from a very small cluster and build up quickly. They will drop off quickly when the flow stops and they will drop back in the winter to a very small cluster.
I don't think (and I'm sure some will disagree with me) that Carni's are more prone to swarm, but they can build up population more suddenly and surprise you with how fast they run out of room. And, of course, then they swarm.
For my climate I would prefer the Carni's. For the south, maybe the Italians would do better.
Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it."
My book: ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
A lot of folks here in GA (including some larger operations) keep Carniolans. Last year I experienced one of the major complaints about Italians. The hives grew like gangbusters and made a lot of honey. Then they promptly consumed almost all of it during the midsummer dearth because their brood rearing never slowed down. Apparently Carniolans cut back very well during a dearth. If I don't outright switch to Carnies, I will cage or remove the Italian queens in mid to late June to disrupt the brood rearing. This will also probably help with mites and make any treatments more effective. Then let them build up for the fall flow and overwintering (if you can actually call what we have a winter).
The fact that Carnies cut back after the flow can be a problem with Italians in the same location. When the Carnies cut back severely, they are prone to being robbed out by the Italians. If you go that way, be prepared to use entrance reducers after the flow.
Ross
www.myoldtools.com
Moderator
There also seems to be a difference in how they handle mites. Don't know if the same applies in North American stock as this is from Brazilian work. From the abstract of the paper that's linked at the bottom:
"The brood cell infestation rates (percentage cells infested) were significantly higher in the Carniolan-sized comb cells (19.3%) than in the Italian and Africanized cells (13.9 and 10.3%, respectively). The Carniolan-sized cells also had a significantly larger number of invading adult female mites per 100 brood cells (24.4) than did the Italian-sized cells (17.7) and the natural-sized Africanized worker brood cells (15.6). European-sized worker brood cells were always more infested than the Africanized worker brood cells in the same colony..."
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2..._full_text.htm
Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...
As you noticed I'm sure, the article emphasizes and makes numerous reference to the size of the cells, diffirentiating between the races of bees only by their natural size.
The last sentence in the paragraph you posted clearly says larger cells were always more infested than smaller cells. Where in the article did it make reference to the breed of Carni's being inferior in the fight against Varroa?
Moderator
It doesn't as far as I can tell. It says that larger cell size resulted in more infestation. The Carni comb was larger and more infested than the Italian, which itself was larger and more infested than the Africanized comb.Where in the article did it make reference to the breed of Carni's being inferior in the fight against Varroa?
Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...
So, what is said in the paper is that beekeepers
with AHB don't have varroa problems.
Somehow, I don't think that this is a "solution"
that would go over well in the US and Canada. [img]smile.gif[/img]
The study is with AHB on different sized cells. The "carni" size was just drawn on foundation by some carnis. It's not the size carnis draw. I've got carnis that draw 4.9 to 4.6mm cells all by themselves with no foundation.
Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it."
My book: ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
Moderator
Well, now I'm confused.The study is with AHB on different sized cells. The "carni" size was just drawn on foundation by some carnis. It's not the size carnis draw. I've got carnis that draw 4.9 to 4.6mm cells all by themselves with no foundation.
"Three types (sizes) of brood combs were placed in each of six Africanized honey bee colonies: new (self-built) Africanized comb, new Italian comb (that the bees made from Italian-sized commercial foundation), and new Carniolan comb (built naturally by Carniolan bees)."
What is "Italian-sized" commercial foundation?
Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...
Ohio Queen Breeders have a good description of the Italian v. Carniolan bees on their web site.
http://www.ohioqueenbreeders.com/karnica.htm
They also discuss the SMR gene which they believe will work to Suppress Mite Reproduction.
http://www.ohioqueenbreeders.com/SMR.htm
The SMR gene is transferrable between different races of bees however.
david BerkeyBee.com
It has recently been found by Marla Spivak that the Smr trait is a varroa specific hygenic behavior. This has been comfirmed by John Harbo and Jeffrey Harris in an article that I recently read. I will try to locate this and post where it can be read.
A good combination for a queen is a Minnesota Hygenic gueen instrumentally inseminated with sperm from Smr Drones. You get the best of both worlds, and the traits are inheritable.
Frank Wyatt
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