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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Hi all,

    Taking a pole here of wire anchoring methods for those that wire frames.

    1. Nail and wrap method
    2. Wrap and tie method (basically ties the wire on)
    3. Other, use of wooden cleats in the end
    bars, ect.

    I use the first two methods.

    How about you?

    Clay

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Harrison, NY, USA
    Posts
    261

    Post

    HI Clay,

    I just ordered a whole bunch of 4.9mm deep foundation from Dadant that unfortunately comes only in plain vanilla flavor (=no crimp wires). So I had to order the wire and this little tool that looks like a small pizza cutter. Too bad they don't sell the crimped wire version of the 4.9mm foundation.

    This is the first time I will be wiring foundation. Could you (or anybody else) give a short explanation of the actual hands-on manuevers you use to put it on?

    Thanks

    jorge

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,113

    Post

    >Taking a pole here of wire anchoring methods for those that wire frames.

    >1. Nail and wrap method
    >2. Wrap and tie method (basically ties the wire on)
    >3. Other, use of wooden cleats in the end
    bars, ect.

    >I use the first two methods.

    >How about you?

    I've only recently started wiring, for the same reason as Jorge, the 4.9mm doesn't come wired. So I haven't done a lot and don't consider myself any expert. I've been using the nail and wrap method. I've just been doing an "X" ending up back where I started, so there is only one nail.

    I learned it from a man who'd been doing it for more than 30 years though.

    When I've bought foundation that was wired, it was mostly in the "W" formation and it just got cleated at the top and went through the split on the bottom bar. There were no horizontals. It worked fine.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
    Posts
    1,015

    Post

    I also use the first two but I on large frames I always use 4 horizontals on one side of the foundation and an inverted V on the back starting from the bottom of the frame to the center top and back down to the bottom all with one piece of wire. Then I use an electric embedder to embed the wires in the wax. This puts wires on both sides of the foundation.
    Clint

    ------------------
    Clinton Bemrose
    just South of Lansing Michigan

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Hi Jorge,

    I will explain the nail and wrap method on a deep frame the way I do it. Starting with a deep frame with eyelets (or staples that some like to use)and you want 4 horizontal wires. Take two 1/2" nails the kind used to nail in wedge cleats on the top bar and tap them half way in above the top and bottom most end bar holes, yet on the edge so they point up at you. (choose a side that applies to what handed you are). I'm right handed so with the wire on the right I fish it back and forth through the holes till it comes out at the top most hole (I start at the bottom hole, doesn't really matter though). Then wrap about 3-4 times around the nail and nail it all the way down. Then hand tighten the wire and wrap the wire around the bottom nail and nial it down. I wiggle the wire till it breaks off. One could clip it with wire cutters but I don't bother as it slows me down picking things up and setting them down. Then I take wire crimpers sold by brushy mountain and crimp the wires on the frame. This compresses the wires and puts tention in them so they are tight. Later when the combs get processed again and the wires go slack and are recycled. Instead of rewiring the frames one just recrimps the wires and they tighten right back up save lots of time.

    Clay

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Harrison, NY, USA
    Posts
    261

    Post

    Thanks, Clay. I will try it out before I ask asking further. I keep wondering what that silly tool is for. They convinced me to get it but see no use for it now that I think (and read your description) of the actual mechanics of putting the wire on. So, you don't really need to embed the wire, do you? I imagine the bees will do it for you if they wish.
    Jorge

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Micheal,

    When you use the X pattern do you slide the foundation between the two wires ? This is how I used to do it as it seems to give a little better support. I think the X pattern is one of the fastest to wire. I have discontinued it however as it isn't quite as strong as the horizontal wiring as I find that the foundation can sag a bit in near the end bars in the middle. But it still is OK.

    Clay

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,113

    Post

    >When you use the X pattern do you slide the foundation between the two wires ?
    http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/bush5.htm

    Maybe it would be easier if I put in the wires first? Yes the foundation is between the two wires. But I put the foundation in first and then put in the wire and the pins.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Hi Jorge,


    So, you don't really need to embed the wire, do you? I imagine the bees will do it for you if they wish.

    reply:

    I have a spur embedded also somewhere (haven't used one it a few years). I use electric to embed via battery charger. It is best to embed the foundation. Some times you can get away without doing it but often it can lead to problems with foundation warping out of shape or becoming wavy especially in hot weather. I'd use the spur embeder dipping it in hot water on each use. If you have a car battery charger you could use that too. I'd use the spur embeder for a bit to just to know how to use it well; then you can go to the juice. You wouldn't want to go through all the work of wiring to just have the foundations ruined would you not to mention the cost? The work can be very repeatative but is best to do it right the first time as scimping can be costly in time and $$$.

    Clay


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Elizabeth, CO,
    Posts
    20

    Post

    Michael,
    Do you embed your "X" into the foundation? From your picture is looks like you don't, can you explain why?

    Thanks

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,113

    Post

    >Do you embed your "X" into the foundation?

    No

    >From your picture is looks like you don't, can you explain why?

    I'm lazy? I never learned how? I don't own an embedder? I don't see the point? The guy who taught the method to me didn't.

    Take you pick.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,421

    Arrow

    Nail and wrap method.

    . . . and you can see how I do it here (not my hands )
    http://www.beesource.com/eob/wire_embedder/index.htm

    -Barry

  13. #13

    Big Grin

    Hello there all. I am new here and this is my first post. I do something similar to the wrap and nail method like Barry posted pictures of except that I string the wire through all of the eyelets and then pull it tight and nail it down. We only use to nails. One at the top and one at the bottom. This is the way my dad taught me and so far it works good for us.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Harrison, NY, USA
    Posts
    261

    Post

    Clay,

    I don't see the big deal with a little warping. Do the bees really care that much? Plus, they keep the temperature more constant than my house thermostat could, so warm days should have no influence. The foundation I used last Spring had crimpd wire and I used only 2 pins per side. The bees made comb and the queen laid a couple thousand eggs per day on it at the peak of her days, not seeming to mind the warping.

    Barry,
    I like your embedder: is it really an old iron that you use to regulate the heat you apply to the wire? I like the idea better that a battery charger. I think the price must be lower, and you can regulate the heat, not with the charger. Is it really necessary to regulate the heat?

    Jorge

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,113

    Post

    >I don't see the big deal with a little warping. Do the bees really care that much?

    A little is ok but a lot and the combs get really messed up.

    >Plus, they keep the temperature more constant than my house thermostat could, so warm days should have no influence.

    I've seen foundation in supers on the hive buckle a lot if the bees don't start building it.

    >The foundation I used last Spring had crimpd wire and I used only 2 pins per side. The bees made comb and the queen laid a couple thousand eggs per day on it at the peak of her days, not seeming to mind the warping.

    If it's only a little it doesn't really matter. Once they draw it it won't warp any more.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Hi Jorge,

    Like Micheal says a little warping is OK. But heavy warping adding honey supers on a hot summer day and the foundations buckles and the bees draw them; what a mess! Eventually this will happen. Just want you to know that playing it safe is a good idea. Do what you feel is best. Micheal's wiring with the support pins and a wire on each side will limit the warping pretty well but with horizontal wiring and the foundation on one side things "could " go wrong if not embedded. I've been through the school of hard knocks here. Having 40 supers or so all with buckled foundation. I noticed before the bees drew them and got them off. Had to steam all the foundations flat and then install and embed. Which reminds me steaming or warm water bath is a good way to save buckled foundations should it happen.

    Clay


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,113

    Post

    >Which reminds me steaming or warm water bath is a good way to save buckled foundations should it happen.

    I'll have to try that next time. I always just scrapped them for wax.

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