Deformed Wing Virus

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Originally Posted by ky_mike

Well I ended up ordering Hop guard. It seems from all of the reading I've done to be less harsh than the Maq's.

I put another sticky board under my hive again today (with vaseline on it this time) and after just a few hours I peeked under the hive and saw several mites on it already and several more bees with DWV crawling around in the grass around the hive.

It would be great if I didn't have to treat but from my limited experience with bees and taking all of the posts in this thread and others into consideration it's just my gut feeling that it's the right thing to do. It would be very discouraging to lose my hives to this.

My goal right now is just to have healthy bees. I'm close to getting my first super of honey from them and if that's all I get I'll be happy. Long term I would like to have bees that are mite resistant and I'll work towards that, but I'm sure that's everyone's long term goal.

The main reasons I decided to treat with something stronger than powdered sugar is obviously the amount of bees I'm now seeing with DWV, the amount of mites I'm now seeing and the amount of mites I'm seeing in my split already, even though they did have a break in the brood cycle by me letting them raise their own queen.

Thanks again for all your input.

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I had a couple hives last fall that had the same symptoms as you have described. They also acted depressed they just sat around like they were sick. Brood production had dropped alot because of being in the fall. I used HopGuard and I really was impressed. In a week they were like a totally different hive. Now I would rather not treat my hives. I would like to be able to say that I have bees that need no treatment. My thinking was to go ahead and save the hives but requeen with something better and not treat again and see how it turns out. I had 8 hives last fall came out this spring with 8 hives. Now I have 25 hives I have not treated since that time. I have not seen any symptoms or signs of high mite counts since. One hive that I got from catching a swarm has a few mites, but nothing bad yet. Most of my bees are tolerant to mites, but they are prone to swarm. All of my bees have came from wild caught swarms except for two hives and some have came from cutouts. I plan on raising some queens out of a Glenn Apiaries Breeder Queen that I have and improve on my wild caught strains. In my opinion not treating and just letting the hive struggle and probably not making it through the winter would be a waste of time and money. Save the colony and requeen it with something better is going to be my system.
One thing about the HopGuard though is that it will not kill the mites in the cells MAQS will and MAQS will get tracheal mites too.
I also started off with natural comb I just used a guide to get the bees started, but I would not recommend it. I found that If I did not inspect at least once a week the comb got really messed up sometimes. So I changed over to the Mann Lake Standard plastic frames with the small cell foundation. I had read a million horror stories about plastic foundation, but I can tell you there is nothing wrong with the stuff Im using. I just coated them good with 1-1 sugar water and dropped them in. They draw them out just fine. Only thing is I wish I could get that foundation in sheets and put it in a wood frame, but Mann Lake does not make that foundation like that.

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MAQS will get tracheal mites too.

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From what I have read Hopguard will also take care of tracheal mites, but I don't know if it is official or even true.

Your hives sounded very similar to mine and so far I have seen the same results.

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Originally Posted by ky_mike

From what I have read Hopguard will also take care of tracheal mites, but I don't know if it is official or even true.

Your hives sounded very similar to mine and so far I have seen the same results.

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I just thougt I had read where HopGuard would not get the Tracheal mites. I dont know where I read it at. It may have been on the Mann Lake Website or somewhere else. I do know that HopGuard will not kill the mites in the capped cells. I waited until fall there was not much brood rearing going on and treated mine. But I do know one thing HopGuard Works and if its used correctly its good stuff. I think it would be a little easier on the brood than the MAQS, but I do have a container of the MAQS and I still have some HopGuard too. I have not treated since last fall and If everything goes well I will not treat at all. But Im not going to let a hive perish when for just a few bucks I can treat them and add a new queen later and totally change that hive into one that will handle the pests better. All my bees are on small cell and natural cell also and so far Ive not had many problems with mites. I dont use screen bottom boards either. Ive noticed that beeks that use SBB's have more of a winter loss than guys who dont use them. There are beeks around me here that use SBB's and one lost all his hives last winter and another had 15 out of 40 left come spring. One guy close to me here has a big operation and has never used SBB's and he does well. But SBB's are another whole subject.

My bad...I was thinking about this article

http://www.klamathbeekeepers.org/Bee...oney_bees.html

At the end it talks about preliminary reports and the effect on AFB and EFB, not tracheal mites.

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Originally Posted by ky_mike

My bad...I was thinking about this article

http://www.klamathbeekeepers.org/Bee...oney_bees.html

At the end it talks about preliminary reports and the effect on AFB and EFB, not tracheal mites.

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I know HopGuard is some good stuff it works well for what its inteded for. When I treated my bees in the fall I just left the strips in and this spring most of them were still in there and they still had the odor of the treatment on them. I think they make work a little longer than they say they will. My bees had chewed on the strips some but not very much.

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Originally Posted by iivydriff

... When I treated my bees in the fall I just left the strips in and this spring most of them were still in there and they still had the odor of the treatment on them. I think they make work a little longer than they say they will...

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To start i will say that i have never used hopguard. That said, I have used several other products. Not just with bees but with cows aswell. When a product is not used as labelled, problems can start to occur.
1. resistance. The residual mites will start to build a resistance to the product. It happens faster than one might think. Not using as specified could come back to bite in the not to distant future
2. Contamination. Test are done by the USA's drug and pesticide groups. In Canada it is the PMRA. They set out the guidelines for usage based on trials. Several factors go into the process...like leaving a product in longer than normal and testing the comb, left over honey, bees etc. One can run the risk of contaminated comb or honey or residuals in the products by not following the directions. Have you not heard all the commotion in the news from alot of activist groups about drug contaimation and the need to regulate livestock meds more than they are now? By not following the direction, you lend credence to these groups...That there are "people" who can not follow directions properly. Well done. :pinch:
3. Illegal. It is also against the law to use products like this against regulations and one can be heavily fined.

There are many reasons why we need to follow manufactures directions. Some reasons are for our protection, some for the bees health protection, and some because good management practices with livestock should be common sense.

honeyshack, congratulation you hit the nail on the head.

I, and my bees:), are treatment free. Well, except for the adult beverages I indulge in. Maybe the girls go out at night? Sorry,,,,anyway, like I said, I do not use chems for the bees. I'm not against it if it works for you, don't believe it is the way to go for me. Having said that, and i do not wish to point a finger at anyone being honest about a possible one time thing. But lets face it, it is an easy thing to do(leave the treatment in ) and not realize the long term consequences despite the label. It probably happens way too much. Possibly foder for another thread. Just thinking out loud.

Hopguard comes as a cardboard strip that has been soaked with the active solution. I have yet to see the cardboard remain for more than about a week in my hives. And when I do find a piece of it, it is dry. I don't think it will have the same issues as apistan or checkmite where the active ingredients remain for extended periods and the strips are made of a material that the bees can't chew up and remove.

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Originally Posted by beemandan

I don't think it will have the same issues as apistan or checkmite where the active ingredients remain for extended periods and the strips are made of a material that the bees can't chew up and remove.

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Reality is, it does not matter what you or I think will happen.
1. Public preception that we as livestock producers who feed the world, supply the food chain, can not follow the simpliest of regulations and directions. Result, stiffer regulations, more resistance to issuing new products, public demands for safer foods and education of the farmers who supply it and more than likely tougher fines for not using as directed by the people who determined how to use it.
2. Neither you nor I have a chemical degree nor have done the research nor trials nor tested the residue, with longer applications nor seen the results of leaving a product in longer than recommended. We are beekeepers who are to follow directions with the products which we have been given the use of to produce food for the nations of the world. It is a responsibility which we should hold to the highest standards. Otherwise we are no better than other countries who export products to our respective countries which have contaminates in them, which we find offensive and get into an uproar when they reach our shores. How can we expect our food safety inspectors who inspect imports hold up our standards at the border when we, farmers, ranchers, beekeepers who feed nations, can not.

As farmers, we are charges with feeding the nation. Maybe we are only hobbiests who sell or give away a few jars of honey. Maybe we produce enough honey to feed our family. But there are those, like myself who have an awesome responsiblity to produce the best product possible because I am feeding someone else's family. Someone else's child, mother, father, etc. It is our responsibility to follow manufactures directions when treating. These directions are designed and impliemented so that there is the lowest, minimalist risk to residue to the food we eat.
Until we sit on the committees which pass these regulations, until we manufacture the product and go through the trials which are demanded of the manufactures and do what it takes to apply for the use of the product, until we do the testing which is done by or commissioned by the manufacture to prove for food quality and submit the results, we as producers are to follow directions...no matter what we may or may not think.

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Originally Posted by honeyshack

To start i will say that i have never used hopguard. That said, I have used several other products. Not just with bees but with cows aswell. When a product is not used as labelled, problems can start to occur.
1. resistance. The residual mites will start to build a resistance to the product. It happens faster than one might think. Not using as specified could come back to bite in the not to distant future
2. Contamination. Test are done by the USA's drug and pesticide groups. In Canada it is the PMRA. They set out the guidelines for usage based on trials. Several factors go into the process...like leaving a product in longer than normal and testing the comb, left over honey, bees etc. One can run the risk of contaminated comb or honey or residuals in the products by not following the directions. Have you not heard all the commotion in the news from alot of activist groups about drug contaimation and the need to regulate livestock meds more than they are now? By not following the direction, you lend credence to these groups...That there are "people" who can not follow directions properly. Well done. :pinch:
3. Illegal. It is also against the law to use products like this against regulations and one can be heavily fined.

There are many reasons why we need to follow manufactures directions. Some reasons are for our protection, some for the bees health protection, and some because good management practices with livestock should be common sense.

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Well since you have not used HopGuard maybe that explains why what you just said doesnt add up. The instructions for Hopguard says you can leave the strips in the hive for the bees to remove themselves. So the product was used as labeled. So maybe you should pull up the instructions for Hopguard and read it. I guess my bees didnt chew up the cardboard as fast as expected so maybe I should notify a government inspector and have them come and issue a stiff fine to my disobedient bees. Next time I will make sure the my bees understand that they are supposed to chew up the cardboard strips in the Hopguard treatment. I will leave the directions in the hive for them to read.
Hopguard is made from natural ingredients so it does not pollute the comb. You can even use it with honey supers on. Next time you see somebody drinking a beer that is made with the same with some of the same ingredients as Hopguard you better have the person read the label for the Beer and make sure they are using it as directed.
"Its better to stand in the corner and look a fool than to open your mouth and prove that are"

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Originally Posted by honeyshack

Reality is, it does not matter what you or I think will happen.
1. Public preception that we as livestock producers who feed the world, supply the food chain, can not follow the simpliest of regulations and directions. Result, stiffer regulations, more resistance to issuing new products, public demands for safer foods and education of the farmers who supply it and more than likely tougher fines for not using as directed by the people who determined how to use it.
2. Neither you nor I have a chemical degree nor have done the research nor trials nor tested the residue, with longer applications nor seen the results of leaving a product in longer than recommended. We are beekeepers who are to follow directions with the products which we have been given the use of to produce food for the nations of the world. It is a responsibility which we should hold to the highest standards. Otherwise we are no better than other countries who export products to our respective countries which have contaminates in them, which we find offensive and get into an uproar when they reach our shores. How can we expect our food safety inspectors who inspect imports hold up our standards at the border when we, farmers, ranchers, beekeepers who feed nations, can not.

As farmers, we are charges with feeding the nation. Maybe we are only hobbiests who sell or give away a few jars of honey. Maybe we produce enough honey to feed our family. But there are those, like myself who have an awesome responsiblity to produce the best product possible because I am feeding someone else's family. Someone else's child, mother, father, etc. It is our responsibility to follow manufactures directions when treating. These directions are designed and impliemented so that there is the lowest, minimalist risk to residue to the food we eat.
Until we sit on the committees which pass these regulations, until we manufacture the product and go through the trials which are demanded of the manufactures and do what it takes to apply for the use of the product, until we do the testing which is done by or commissioned by the manufacture to prove for food quality and submit the results, we as producers are to follow directions...no matter what we may or may not think.

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Dude go read about Hopguard before you say anymore. You might want to check out Formic Acid while you are at it. Might Away Quick Strips. There is nothing worse than someone acting like they know everything when they obviously dont have a clue what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Rick 1456

I But lets face it, it is an easy thing to do(leave the treatment in ) and not realize the long term consequences despite the label. It probably happens way too much.

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If a treatment is going to be used...then use it properly. Follow directions and remove the product in a timely matter. That is all there is to it. Check and double check.
Its like bagging or nutting a steer. Get the elastic, put on the tool, count 1 and 2. Put on the elastic and remove count 1 and 2. If two is not found, remove elastic and start again. So how to apply this story to bees, if two strips go in, two come out...count..easy to do

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Originally Posted by iivydriff

Dude go read about Hopguard before you say anymore. You might want to check out Formic Acid while you are at it. Might Away Quick Strips. There is nothing worse than someone acting like they know everything when they obviously dont have a clue what they are talking about.

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Dude....it is dudette to you. And I know what i talk about. I also use formic. As long as the strips remain in, as long as the product is not removed by either the beekeeper or the bees at the appropriate time, there is a risk...always a risk.
Been working animals both cows, sheep, pigs, chickens and bees on a commercial level since 1995. Husband has been raised on a farm and this farm is third generation of working adults. I do know what i speak of when it comes to food safety... many many years in the restaurant industry cooking. As well, I have gone through the process of getting our honey house federal inspection status with a safety manual (required) designed and implimented which also includes hive logs as well as honey house logs.
I do know what i speak of. And i see first hand how much harder it is to break through public preception that we as livestock producers are abusing the drugs we use to treat our animals when problems occur.
Following manufactures directions is our only way to stay out of the line of fire from such activist groups. Truth be told, if they know we abuse one drug or do not follow directions on one drug..ie formic or hopguard, how can they trust us to follow the directions on drugs which will be more detrimental to our food industry if they are misused.

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Originally Posted by iivydriff

The instructions for Hopguard says you can leave the strips in the hive for the bees to remove themselves.
"Its better to stand in the corner and look a fool than to open your mouth and prove that are"

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If the bees do not remove it, as beekeepers it is up to us to remove it in a timely fashion. We put it in there, our responsiblilty to remove it.
Just because it is made of natural ingredients, does not mean we can ignore what we put in the hive. We still have the responsibilty to take care of what we are entrusted.

HS,
I'm on your side. My verbal buffering attempts failed:( To stir the pot),,,,what if you had to take a "short course" of some sort, something to show one has been "educated" to some level, before they could purchase certain products applicable to the hive? Like a drivers license? I have an "expired" commercial pesticide applicators license. I had to get one to apply roundup on a public park. How much difference is there?
I am at this time, in the lowest part of my basement with a kevlar vest on. :)

I understand Rick. It just bothers me, gets my hackles up when someone takes such a cavelier attitude to watching for withdrawal times.

So to put into perspective

MA2 when on the market....do not harvest honey within two weeks of treatment...still have a few pails on the farm...empty pails I should clarify

MAQS...
TIME OF APPLICATION:
To minimize residues and contamination of marketable honey, carefully follow all label instructions.
Pre-Harvest Interval (PHI): Honey: at least 2 weeks from the end of the treatment

Hop guard
This comes from the label which i googled. I can not seem to copy the link. I googled hopguard label, then had to scroll through a few to get to the actual label. It comes up as a pdf file

A maximum of three applications per year (six strips or approximately 11.52 grams of potassium salt of hop beta acids) per ten
frame brood super (chamber) is allowed. This limit includes all applications to the package (if applicable) and to the colony.
Application timing (usually during spring, summer or fall) should be based on the levels of Varroa mites observed in the colony.
Users may not take honey and wax from the brood chambers, only from the honey supers. For optimal results, apply HopGuard
when little to no brood is present in the hive.

RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT
Using this product in rotation with another approved miticide with a different mode of action will decrease the potential for Varroa
mites to develop resistance. If the strip remains in the hive more than 4 weeks remove.

Wow! I've been missing a lot during my week vacation:D

Not to change the subject ,but my hives are doing wonderful since the treatment :thumbsup:

I haven't seen a bee with deformed wings in a while now.

I really don't want to get into the whole debate from the previous posts but I will say at the end of the week when I went to remove the cardboard strips they were mostly devoured by the bees and I can't see how they would last any longer in a hive.