"treatment free", but "natural beekeeping".....most (if not all) of the actual discussion was about "natural treatments". When the conversation goes from "no treatments" to "if I do use a treatment, which is the most natural", then the whole conversation becomes about the treatments...we've seen this time and time again, and it is why Dee stopped participating here.
Only recently has this changed...the forum that exists now did not exist when Dee left. In any case, until recently I've advised anyone that wants to discuss treatment free or "organic beekeeping" (as Dee uses the term) to join the organic list (where no discussion of treatments is tolerated). It still has the feature that it isn't crawling with non-treatment free beekeepers reading the posts, unable to help themsleves from chiming in...this allows for some discussion that can't happen here.
In any case, I just wanted to point out that the forum you are reading now is not he forum that Dee left.
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Dan, published research has to be able to withstand examination publicly in minute detail...that is the point of publishing a peer reviewed study....it isn't supposed to be a "claim", it's supposed to present reproducible "proof".
Lots has been posted on the organic list on lots of topics....the only on topic topic, however, is keeping bees without treatments. Treatments are, by definition, off topic....just as they now are here on beesource in the treatment free forum.
For the record, I've not "demanded" anyone that they have to read a study in detail...I spent my time understanding what Seeley's study claimed, did, and did not do. Thus far, no one has offered any substantive criticism of my critique....I've taken the trouble to clarify my thoughts where asked to do so.
I'm not sure why you think such a critique would be unwelcome on the organic list...or what you think wouldn't be allowed....treatments are the only real big no no....and if you can't find a forum to discuss the treatments you want to use you aren't looking too far.
There's a difference between discussing small cell studies and discussing treatments. Treatments belong in the Pests forum, the lack thereof belongs in the treatment free forum. It's that simple. You wouldn't discuss frame wiring in Topbar hives.
Thanks Dean for clearing that up. I went back and dug up Dee's email, and reading it in that context makes total sense. Her meanings in words are not always crystal clear as you know.
She didn't give up, she did it herself and made it happen. I mean none of this as any disrespect to Barry or Sol, but it is 10 years later, she has replaced what she was hoping to find here. Her goal was not to "influence" this forum...it was to have a discussion of beekeeping without treatments and feeds...she has succeeded.
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If you can go back in the archives and show this was happening, I'd like see it. In my mind, nothing much has changed. We can still talk about treatments here if it is in the context of going from treatments to treatment free, showing logical steps to achieve it. This has always been a difference Dee and I have had. She is extreme in this area, no mention of any kind of treatment is allowed. I have always felt that that is counter productive and there are times when this needs to be discussed as a way to get from point a to point b.Quote:
then the whole conversation becomes about the treatments...
When I first joined Beesource, this was the biological forum. It was a very quiet section then, and discussion of treatment was not allowed.
Then things got fired up when a certain Wired For Stereo signed up. Statements were made, and a bantering style developed, that has attracted participants of diverse opinions, and reasons for holding them, and a willingness to argue them for better or worse!
As an effort to "clean up" this mess, the forum was renamed. Also, numerous polls were taken, on just about anything.
In practise, nothing has changed. Discussion of treatment is still not permitted. This is fine though, because as per an example yesterday, if someone shows up who really wants to discuss treatments, they are welcome to move their discussion to another section and continue. So far as I'm concerned, the whole thing works well. We don't want people who wish to only discuss non treatment, to be forced to discuss treatment.
I didn't know Dee had found the old biological forum so unsatisfactory she felt compelled to leave, I've never seen her post here. Anyway if that's her choice, you can never please all the people, all the time. I doubt the claim she was "driven off".
What's changed here in the tf section? Little, other than it's gone from a fairly quiet section, to a pretty lively one hosting sometimes raucous debates and vociferous opinions! I've learned a lot here and even been convinced to start some sc hives, although I have not been convinced what the eventual outcome will be. I'll have to find that out when the time comes.
Well, it appears the this thread fragment has been moved from the Bee Forum.
Let me reaffirm my former assertion that I was incorrect when I said that Dee had been run off by opposition to treatment-free beekeeping. I wouldn't be the first person to misunderstand something Dee wrote. Deknow's clarification helped to contextualize the email that I had received.
Let me post a portion of exactly what Dee said.
"I was also too stubborn to cave into essential oils and acids, etc"
"I will not go back!!!!"
I can't post most of the rest of it. Like somebody said, you wouldn't want to meet her in a dark alley.;)
Well I think that makes it fairly clear it was simply her own choice. ;)
And I respect Dee for holding strong to HER convictions.
Dissagree Barry. LOL!
I've got strong opinions. But I'm still willing to discuss with those who differ. And to learn. ( Occasionally :) )
Alastair is right. It was a very quiet forum when he signed up last year.
I signed up way back in December of 2002 under the name WiredForStereo (if you do a Google search, the top 8/10 hits are me) and I participated for a while, but eventually, I got busy doing life and beekeeping and only checked in from time to time after about 180 posts. When I checked in again this spring, I was a little dismayed, and upset that most every discussion was devolving into yes/no treatment-free beekeeping arguments with a healthy portion of 'I wanna talk about natural treatments' as well. As you know, I don't believe that there are such things as 'natural treatments'. The truth is, 'softer treatments' are ubiquitous today. A treatment is a treatment.
So I pushed for a little restructuring and at Mark Berninghausen's repeated insistence, I half heartedly asked to be a moderator. Now I don't want to impugn Barry's intelligence, but he said yes. :eek: Anyway, I asked very politely for Dee to come back and as you see, she won't.
My goal has always been to open this forum to newbees (the kind that want to learn, not the kind that want to teach) which is why we must address questions about small cell studies (many thanks to Dean) and practical beekeeping (many thanks to Michael.)
And I will not deny stirring the pot.:D
Alastair, yes, I personally feel the same way about it, yet I can still respect her having her own convictions. I respect her, not necessarily the conviction.