Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

David...do you have any pros or cons with using the 5 frame nuc as your starter vs. a cloake board? I'm undecided on which method I'm going to use but like the simplicity of the nuc sized, if for no other reason than fewer frames to look for rogue queen cells. Do you use different donor hives for your nurse bees or do you just pull from one particular hive?

K9, I know folks that read the Driver Safety Handbook, attempted to drive, and *still* don't know how! "LOOK OUT FOR THAT....!!!" :pinch:

Ed

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Originally Posted by Intheswamp

I think David meant that the two "outer" frames were out from the center on either side of where the queen cell frame will be placed. The stores on the outside are correct. By the term "the next two..." I think he meant the next two going out from center.

At least that's what I think he meant. :)

Ed

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I think he said it correctly for a five frame nuc. Brood on the outside, and pollen/stores next to what will be the cell bar for easy access. With 4-6 pounds of bees in there I think they'll be able to keep the two outside frames warm enough to continue caring for the brood, but you want the food for the prospective queens as close as possible to the graft.

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Originally Posted by AstroBee

Can you explain why you place the capped/emerging brood on the outside? I've always kept the brood near the middle, just like a normal functioning hive.

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Instheswamp as well,

I can explain my reasoning, but I sure won't swear that it's correct. The capped/emerging brood is just supplying new nurse bees - there is little if any open brood on those frames - and as they emerge they are quickly back filled with stores, because there isn't much space for that anywhere else in the hive. The only open brood (ideally) is on the cell bar - and all of the nurse bees will be there as well. My reason for having the stores right next to the cell bar is so that they will be where the nurse bees can get to them, and stay with the grafts.

I've tried it the other way too, and I can't really say that it makes a difference - with such a small highly populated hive it's all right there no matter how you arrange it.

I would sure welcome the opinion of anyone who is more of an authority.

Stripstake - I wrote this before I got to your reply. I'm glad someone agrees with my reasoning though.

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Originally Posted by VolunteerK9

David...do you have any pros or cons with using the 5 frame nuc as your starter vs. a cloake board? I'm undecided on which method I'm going to use but like the simplicity of the nuc sized, if for no other reason than fewer frames to look for rogue queen cells. Do you use different donor hives for your nurse bees or do you just pull from one particular hive?

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I do, with the caveat that I haven't tried the Cloake system.
1) A queen right hive as populous as this would be quite likely to swarm if you weren't mighty vigilant. With a queenless hive as long as you find wild cells before they emerge all is well - 10-12 days. A Queenright hive might swarm with a 5 day old capped cell if it was really in the mood. So, you are more likely to catch them with once a week inspections - during which you don't have to worry about accidentally killing the queen.
2) This system doesn't require either a big strong hive or any equipment (Cloake board) that I didn't already have.
3) It's just one box, so you pull the lid off, and it's all right there.

It's simple, easy, and it works. I'm not saying that the Cloake system isn't good too - I'm sure it is once you learn to use it.

I swap brood frames from where ever I find them. Thus spreading the joy.

I think the nuc will be the way I go. I have several all medium setups as well as the deep/shallow combos. Sorting through a couple of frames for stray cells will be a lot easier than 30 frames not to mention with fewer stings :D Thanks for the post

Thanks for setting me straight, David. What you've explained makes sense to me. I've gotta learn to keep my mouth shut about things I know nothing about. :)

Ed

If I kept my mouth shut except when I know what I'm talking about I'd starve to death.

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Originally Posted by David LaFerney

If I kept my mouth shut except when I know what I'm talking about I'd starve to death.

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I resemble that remark. :)

Ed

David thank you for this post. Very informative and I look forward to giving this a shot at some point in the future.
Jason

I've been going back over this thread a few times, over a few days now. I have been thinking that this would be a good
system for those guys that are strictly top bar hive types also. I think I've found what I'll be using in the future when
I start trying to rear queens. Because I really haven't thought of a simple way to rig a cloake board into a top bar hive.lol
I'm thinking the nuc even could be run in the back of a full sized TBH hive body. I won't have to sacrifice a full size hive
to raise cells. It could be a matter of just swapping bars and follower boards around. Thank You, so much.

Great Thread!!

Great thread David,
Raised some queens in 2012 with the cloake board method for my own and club use later in the year found that they sometimes would not build up the cells, too hot maybe. Since then I just started new nuc's with 4 frames and put in the center a bar with 4 grafts from my best queen,all the nuc's requeened themselves in this manner and are the nuc's that I am over wintering
Johno

Yeah, this one is one I've bookmarked. It's all really well-explained and seems like a great approach which requires little gear. David did a great job putting the material together and sharing it.

Adam

Dave, can you give an "exploded" view of the anatomy of your nuc box? It appears as if there is a 2" extension cleated above the SBB. Why wouldn't you use a deep? essplain porfivore

Thanks David!! This answers a lot of my questions on the starter/finisher hive thing!! Cant wait to try it when spring hits!!

Lakebilly,I was thinking that it was a slatted rack to give them some room ,but that's just a guess.:scratch:

Yes, that 2" extension is a slatted rack to give them some room. I didn't use a deep nuc box because i didn't have one. I do all mediums so that is just what i have. I doubt if it makes much difference though. If you already have deep equipment then use it.

Just a few ? .
#1 On what day do you remove the cells

#2
How early can you safely remove the cells

#3. I forgot :scratch:
Happens often. :(

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Originally Posted by tommyt

Just a few ? .
#1 On what day do you remove the cells

#2
How early can you safely remove the cells

#3. I forgot :scratch:
Happens often. :(

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You need to remove cells on the 10th day after grafting - not too late on the 10th day for good measure.

It is safe to remove cells from the finisher as soon as they are capped - on the 4th - 5th day - but they will have to be put into an incubator if you do.

Some companies ship cells, so obviously they can be removed from incubation before they are about to emerge, but when it is safe to do that is probably highly technical and above my experience. It is safe to handle them gently on the tenth day.

It might sound obvious, but just for the record - if you graft on Saturday, then Sunday is the 1st day after grafting. At least that's what I mean by it.

There is some variation of schedules because of many factors, but especially temperature. If it is really hot, then you don't want to wait too late on day 10 to put your cells in nucs or it is quite likely that one will emerge and kill the rest.