Slovenian AZ Beehive

Ziva
What is the distance between frames center-to-center (from center of one frame to the center of another) and how wide the frame itself? Better in millimeters/cm since I assume the beehive itself is metric. Thanks!

I think, it is not necessary to reproduce the exact copy of the hive. There are some features, which made it unique:
- only front exposed to weather, thus - double insulation at the front;
- access to all frames simultaneously from the back;
- sliding frames;
- non-extendable design;
- beehive supposed to be the part of beehouse, thus, minimal insulation on the sides, air gap between backdoor and frames for thermoinsulation;
- screen at the back to observe the bees without disturbing.

Once these features implemented, the exact size is not such important. Many thanks Ziva for sharing all photos! Sergey

ziva,
Just as kind of a follow up on the AZ hive you bought what kind of foundation does it look like should be used? I think I saw a grooved top and a couple of holes in the end bar, but did not see a picture of the bottom bar. Still curious on this aspect of the hive.
Thanks again in advance for all you have with us.

Sorry for the delay answering. There were strong winds all weekend. Lost electricity early saturday morning. It came back on later, but winds were still strong and electricity flickering on/off, so I unplugged the computer......

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Originally Posted by Goran

Just a little more about curved parts, that also divert bees from building wax on top, ease the movement for bees on top, and as said previously protect the bees when you lift up the frame.

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Thank you! All good reasons why the frames are curved.

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Originally Posted by Goran

For AŽ grom – it has 2cm higher frame than standard, and as this beekeeper said it means a lot when 2cm more of honey is above their head, and better formation. For overwintering they remain in one box, and I think better than in a langstroth. And when acacia flow is OK, they easily fill the honey box with 30kg of honey. AŽ grom with 11+11 frames (brood and honey box above) is most common at my place, and people who has them won't change a bit on it:).

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I understand now why the beekeeper you spoke with prefers the grom. But, I have the standard 10-frame, without the extra 2cm, so I'll just have to work with that. If I ever find anyone who can build an AŽ hive I may experiment with the grom. My climate is like Britain----the parts of Britain with the most wind/rain, and the bees seem to over winter better in smaller spaces, which is why I have mostly Warré hives. The 1 kTBH I have is on my balcony and completely sheltered from the wind and rain. It has done really well too (no doubt because it's sheltered). So I'm really looking forward to see how the AŽ hive does in a sheltered area (hopefully a beehouse!!)

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Originally Posted by Goran

Also I remembered You'll need holder for frames with spacings on it when inspecting a hive „kozlić“ ( link with a picture of it „ http://www.budija-sp.si/index.php?op...d=39&Itemid=32 “).

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Yay, something I can build!! :) Thanks for the info!

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Originally Posted by Goran

Also I found something interesting for maybe transfering bees from other hive types to your AŽ. Plastic holders that can be attached to AŽ frame and removed when returning to AŽ – „ http://www.rihar-kocjan.si/index.php...g/detail&id=16 „.

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That looks like a good idea, but the AŽ frames don't fit any of my other hives. But one of the questions I had was how to get bees (from a package) into the AŽ hive? People here with LR hives just shake the package bees into the hive at the top. That's how I started my TBH, but in my Warrés I put a ramp at the entrance and let the bees walk in. I'm guessing that's how to put bees in the AŽ hive? Let them walk in? I don't know if bees can be shaken/poured into an AŽ hive, unless there is an adapter board....

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Originally Posted by Goran

I'm searching for another book where is more detailed described work by months, but didn't found it yet..

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I found this site with month-to-month work description, but I can't understand it very well because many of the words are mistranslated in English: http://translate.google.com/translat...pod/stran3.htm

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Originally Posted by Goran

For now, this much. I hope this would be helpful for You.

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Yes, it was very helpful! Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Goran

Forgot to tell, every day I go to work I pass through Filipovac:).

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Good to know that! I will tell my uncle. Last month when I was talking to him he said it had been destroyed, and I said I didn't think it was. I think he was talking about the village where his mother (my grandmother) was born. That village name began with the letter "P" but I don't remember the name now. He hasn't been back to Croatia since the war, and I have never been there. But, I will tell him Filipovac is still there!:)

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

It would be wonderful if we could get some detailed plans for the 2 & 3 floor units so we could convert to American standard lumber sizes. For me the best might be something like a set of plans and hardware kits, which would save hugely on shipping costs. A nice bonus would be some expandable plans for the bee house too. Ah well dreams are cheap and reality is expensive....

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I concur! But, from everything I've read so far the AŽ hive is difficult to build correctly. And the people I've spoken to directly all said the same thing, "That's complicated!". But, I'm still holding on to the hope of finding plans for a traditional beehouse. So far I've only seen an outline drawing, but no plans or material list. Yes, dreams.........

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Ziva
What is the distance between frames center-to-center (from center of one frame to the center of another) and how wide the frame itself? Better in millimeters/cm since I assume the beehive itself is metric. Thanks!

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The frames don't sit tight in the spacers so there's some 'wiggle' room. The center-to-center is ~ 37mm. If I push the frames apart farthest in the spacers they're 39mm. If I pull them closest in the spacers they're 36mm. (So, 3mm 'wiggle' room). The width of the frame is 25mm (top, bottom and sides are all the same width). The width of the whole frame is 41cm and the depth is 26cm (263mm).

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Originally Posted by cerezha

I think, it is not necessary to reproduce the exact copy of the hive. There are some features, which made it unique:
- only front exposed to weather, thus - double insulation at the front;
- access to all frames simultaneously from the back;
- sliding frames;
- non-extendable design;
- beehive supposed to be the part of beehouse, thus, minimal insulation on the sides, air gap between backdoor and frames for thermoinsulation;
- screen at the back to observe the bees without disturbing.

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It seems to me that you are correct, but then, I don't have experience with the AŽ hive yet. This link seems like a good explanation of the hive. (It has English, French and German translations. Click on the word at the far right of the menu bar, there's a drop down menu. Click the top name, there's another drop down, then click "AŽ panj". Good info: http://www.czs.si/cebelar_panji_az.php

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Once these features implemented, the exact size is not such important. Many thanks Ziva for sharing all photos! Sergey

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You're welcome! :)

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

ziva,
Just as kind of a follow up on the AZ hive you bought what kind of foundation does it look like should be used?

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I have no idea because I have no experience with foundation. All my hives are natural comb with no foundation or foundation starter strips. Here's a couple of photos;
Warré comb:
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/p.../Warrecomb.jpg

kTBH comb:
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/p...ed/TBHcomb.jpg

The out side dimensions of the AŽ frames are 16 1/8" wide X 10 3/8" deep. The inside dimensions are 15 5/16" X 9 1/4". Hope that helps?

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

I think I saw a grooved top and a couple of holes in the end bar, but did not see a picture of the bottom bar. Still curious on this aspect of the hive.
Thanks again in advance for all you have with us.

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You're welcome :). Yes, there is a groove for foundation in the top bar of the frame. I didn't take a picture of the bottom bar because there is no groove there. Just at the top. (The holes at the top of the end bar is really just the space where the grove is, not for wires). There are 5 tiny holes in the top bar and at the bottom bar for wires. So that would mean vertical wires. But Goran said (p.3 of this thread) vertical wires were possibly a problem and the beekeeper he spoke to said 5 horizontal wires are used for the standard AŽ frame, and 6 horizontal wires for the AŽ grom size.

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do yet. So far I've had good luck going foundationless, but on the other hand I have no experience yet with the AŽ hive. But, in the thread Bostek started ("beekeeper beginner from Slovenia") he shows a photo of frames prepped for foundationless, using foundation starter strips. I've only used wooden comb guides for my hives so I might do that with the AŽ frames. (Wood craft sticks 'glued' into the foundation groove with melted beeswax).

Sorry I couldn't be of more help:o . Obviously, I need to do more research.....

One picture from bostek seems to indicate foundationless, with a strip starter and some vertical mono-filament (I heard 10-20 lb. is plenty), on page 2 in his photo gallery set about half way down. However the frame next to the foundationless one looks like a full wax foundation (again with fishing line) with holes for horizontal mono-filament, so he does both.

Thanks for the internal and external dimensions (now printing all of the sketches that were referenced as drawings to see what I can garner) and it looks like the surface area is not that much different from a Lang. deep. I am all 10 frame Langs. right now 3 with one NUC that I hope will make it through the winter and I have two package bee sets paid for due to be picked up on 6 April I think. These are going into all med. super hives, full deeps are HEAVY, that I am going to try out next year making 6 hives total in my back yard (urban, in development).

I have used the Walter Kelly foundationless frames with excellence success, and also gluing in 1/8" plywood strips (beeswax on the edges) was sucessful. I have not tried wax foundation strips, but all you have to do is to melt some beeswax into the groove to hold your wax strip. I am going med supers foundationless so I can cut the comb into blocks or crush and strain (saving over buying an extractor). I have a lot of hopes for next year which will be my first harvest. As an after thought I'll be you could put an AZ foundationless frame into an extractor if it had the 5 vertical lines out of fishing line.

Thanks again for your responses and insights.

You're right. Looking at bostek's photos again, I can see that he's using some horizontal wiring , some vertical wiring, foundation, and foundationless. I wonder if he's experimenting, or if it doesn't matter?

I know deeps are HEAVY! That's another reason I use Warrés. They're about the same as an 8-frame medium. I'm a wimp, so that's as much as I can handle when they're full of honey...

I haven't used an extractor, only crush/strain and cut comb. But I was told you can put foundationless combs in an extractor as long as they're not new comb which would be too soft/fragile and could blow out. But, I don't have personal experience and that's just what I was told.

I hope your hives all make it through the winter. You have mild winters so they probably will! And also good luck with your 6 hives and first honey harvest next year. In your location you may get more than one. But ANY honey harvest is fun the first time, and messy, but still fun!

Good luck(!) and it really sounds like you're putting a lot of forethought in everything you're doing. I would love to see any drawing/plans you come up with. Are you willing to post them when you're ready? That would be really great!! And photos too! :)

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Originally Posted by Ziva

Warré comb:
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/p.../Warrecomb.jpg
kTBH comb:
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/p...ed/TBHcomb.jpg

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Beautiful honey comb, Ziva!

I am also foundationless. I have one 5-med Lang and horizontal 20-frames deep "Lang". I am experimenting with frame's design. I am using "truncated" classical frames and also just top bars. Interestingly, my latest "top-bars" has exactly the same dimensions as your AZ hive (this why I was asking) - it is approximately equal to 9 frames in 10-frame Lang. Full deep-size foundationless honeycomb is heavy! I would imagine that you probably need some sort of foundation. Since, you crush-and-strain, you have wax. What about simple "foundation" made just as a sheet of wax, no patterns? Sounded very natural!

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Originally Posted by Ziva

The frames don't sit tight in the spacers so there's some 'wiggle' room. The center-to-center is ~ 37mm. If I push the frames apart farthest in the spacers they're 39mm. If I pull them closest in the spacers they're 36mm. (So, 3mm 'wiggle' room). The width of the frame is 25mm (top, bottom and sides are all the same width). The width of the whole frame is 41cm and the depth is 26cm (263mm).

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Many thanks for info!

Did you see this:
http://www.czs.si/cebelar_cebelnjaki.php
There are 3 plans for beehouse in pdf . They kinf of self-explanatory.

I'm nearly done doing the conversions from metric to imperial (USA) on the sketches in the earlier referenced site. Yes building an exact copy would be difficult due to the conversions ending in fractions like 23/64". So I started thinking of using standard foundation for deeps. I measured one of my deep frames to approximate reasonable dimensions 17 3/4 X 9 1/8" and the AZ conversions were rounded for general ease of use, 10 1/4 X 14 1/4". This yielded areas of 162 sq." for the Lang. deep, and 146 sq." for the AZ frame (standard?). The AZ frame is shorter in length and taller which could make it difficult to find wax foundation to use in them in the USA. However if the hive/frames were designed around Lang. deep foundation size it would be easier to populate with any desired foundation, foundationless. I do not think I am skilled enough to put it into a CAD program like Google Sketchup.
Interesting project anyway.

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Did you see this:
http://www.czs.si/cebelar_cebelnjaki.php
There are 3 plans for beehouse in pdf . They kinf of self-explanatory.

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Sergey, no I missed them, I will print now to review, thanks for the help.

Update: Outstanding and many thanks Sergey! They help me understand the setup much more clearly.

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Beautiful honey comb, Ziva!

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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by cerezha

I am also foundationless. I have one 5-med Lang and horizontal 20-frames deep "Lang". I am experimenting with frame's design. I am using "truncated" classical frames and also just top bars.

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That's fantastic!! (Some Warré beekeepers also use truncated frames instead of just the top bars of the original design). I imagine you have some beautiful combs! And the horizontal "lang" sounds great too. No lifting boxes!

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Interestingly, my latest "top-bars" has exactly the same dimensions as your AZ hive (this why I was asking) - it is approximately equal to 9 frames in 10-frame Lang.

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That IS interesting! What a coincidence!

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Full deep-size foundationless honeycomb is heavy!

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Do you ever have problems with it breaking off the top bars with that much weight? I'd be nervous to try!

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Originally Posted by cerezha

I would imagine that you probably need some sort of foundation. Since, you crush-and-strain, you have wax. What about simple "foundation" made just as a sheet of wax, no patterns? Sounded very natural!

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That's a great idea I hadn't thought of! Since I have no experience with foundation, (or frames either!) I was just thinking of using a wood comb guide like I already do. But then I wondered if I might end up with problems doing that in an AŽ hive. But I love seeing the natural comb and don't like the idea of 'forcing' the bees to make cells sizes on pre-formed, embossed foundation. Your idea sounds like a perfect solution! Thank you! :)

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Originally Posted by cerezha

Did you see this:
http://www.czs.si/cebelar_cebelnjaki.php
There are 3 plans for beehouse in pdf . They kinf of self-explanatory.

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No, I missed seeing that! Wow, thank you so much for pointing it out!!!!!!! That's absolutely perfect and exactly what I wanted to find!

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Ziva

That's a great idea I hadn't thought of! Since I have no experience with foundation, (or frames either!) I was just thinking of using a wood comb guide like I already do. But then I wondered if I might end up with problems doing that in an AŽ hive. But I love seeing the natural comb and don't like the idea of 'forcing' the bees to make cells sizes on pre-formed, embossed foundation. Your idea sounds like a perfect solution! Thank you! :)

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Nice idea. Has anyone seen non-embossed sheets of bees wax that could be cut to the AZ frame size?

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

I'm nearly done doing the conversions from metric to imperial (USA) ...

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Metric vs imperial - HA-HA! I have this problem quite often - our machine shop mechanics could not do anything metric - always mistakes... It seems to me at least one Mars mission was unsuccessful because company-manufacturer used miles and JPL - kilometers... To me, there is no reason to adapt AZ to the Lang - the beauty of the AZ hive is that it is not a Lang! AZ hive has much longer history than Lang and apparently - doing VERY well in its own dimensions. It is really cool project!

I think, the main complexity of the hive comes from design (and drawing!) of the body. It is my understanding that at least front side of the hive has two layers with insulation between. There are detailed instruction on Slovenian Web-site that wood for AZ hive must be dried for at least 3 years - so far I got... From this, I think, we should work around internal body dimensions with understanding that exterior may be slightly different depending from weather conditions.

Next would be to split the whole design in two nearly identical parts (compartments) - upper and lover and queen excluder between.

Now, we need to know the size of the space between frames and body (inside).

and so on...

Yes that was Lockheed. I work supporting the Space Station at Johnson Space Center in Houston.

I was not sure if that space was empty or had insulation, interesting (the type would be interesting). Two other things I am still scratching at is the 3 rods that support the frames, and the centering spacers Ziva was talking about. The drawings seem to indicate a box in a box, but I am curious about how the various items get supported/attached. I have a big issue with SHB here in Houston so on the bottom I would be interested in a Freeman oil trap under a screened bottom that is removable, plus maybe a gridded plastic board for varroa counts. Interesting discussions here, thanks again!
I have been chatting with Janet at Country Rubes on the wax mixtures for dipping the wood parts, everything must be glued first, so these hives would need a very large/expensive tank to dip in (10 minutes seems to be ideal). There was an Australian paper written on this and if you paint it while the wood is still hot it will attach (also gets sucked into the pores) 2 coats recommended, but paint will not stick if it cools.

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

Yes that was Lockheed. I work supporting the Space Station at Johnson Space Center in Houston.

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Really cool! I have friend working for JPL.

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

I was not sure if that space was empty or had insulation, interesting (the type would be interesting).

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We have similar design in Russia. They create the body (internal part) and then use planks with tooth-grove connection to cover the body outside. In Russia they do not use additional insulation - just two layers of planks and some gaps between provided the insulation. In AZ hive they DO use insulation. In fact, it was stated that insulation must completely fill up the space between planks to prevents insects. What made everything even trickier is that in AZ hive, only front part exposed to the weather. So, it is my understanding that just front has two wood layers with insulation between. Sides are single body. Back has insulating air gap between "door" and internal screen. Tricky!

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

Two other things I am still scratching at is the 3 rods that support the frames, and the centering spacers Ziva was talking about.

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My understanding is that side walls are single and they just drill the holes...

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

I have been chatting with Janet at Country Rubes on the wax mixtures for dipping the wood parts...

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I have mixed feeling about this approach: (1) looks great! (2) it makes wood water-proof, the main function of wood, humidity regulation (breathing) is missing. If so - plastic may be used, why wood?

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Originally Posted by mmmooretx

..... They help me understand the setup much more clearly.

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I particularly love the elegance of curved roof over the "facade" of the beehouse. It looks like the bigger room (plan A) has honey-extraction area?