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The Australian distraction

57K views 157 replies 29 participants last post by  BlueDiamond 
#1 · (Edited)
Australia provides a very useful smokescreen for the pesticide lobbyists because:

a. It's very far away
b. It's very big - 6th largest country in the world -7,690,00 sq km
c. Very few Americans have been there
d. Beekeeping there is largely 'bush-beekeeping' - in wild country

The honeys which are most-valuable from Australia are wild-floral honeys like acacia, manuka, eucalyptus, bush mallee, myrtle, meadow honey and a dozen others. About 90% of Australia's landscape is 'wild' - the great centre of the country is either desert or bush. Relatively little beekeeping is concerned with pollination of arable crops. Many beekeepers, according to Jeffrey Gibb, live solitary lives, ranging through the wild bush, collecting wild honey for sale. So, exposure to neonics is probably only in those areas where wheat, canola are grown and of those only neonic treated canola probably presents a real threat.

So, most of Oz beekeepers have little contact with neonics. The ones who run migratory pollination businesses in arable crop areas, like Warren Jones - are suffering large losses.


From The Buzz About Bees website run by Amanda Williams:

It is often claimed (by the pesticide industry) that Australia's honey bees are healthy despite the fact that neonicotinoids are used there.

The question is raised: “If neonicotinoids kill bees, why aren’t Australian beekeepers losing theirs?” or “Neonicotinoids are used in Australia and they have healthy honey bees”.

So is this true? Is everything hunky-dory for Australia's honey bees?
What do we know about Australian beekeepers and their experience of neonicotinoids, honey bees and beekeeping?
In June 2007 a very revealing document was produce by Mr Warren Jones, President of the Australian Crop Pollinators Association - see right.

Warren Jones explains about his role:

“I am the President of the Crop Pollination Association Inc. This association represents the beekeeper pollinators that service agriculture's pollination requirements across a broad range of crops in all eastern states, Western Australia,Tasmania and NT. We provide representation to AHBIC, the peak body established to represent all sectors of beekeeping.”
You’ll see from the document that Warren Jones’ beekeeping experience and service to agriculture spans 34 years.

In relation to this issue, of particular interest was this comment:


Page 4

“There has been a wide use of neonicotinoids to treat a large range of pasture seed and other seed prior to planting, which includes most of our horticulture and vegetable production. Consequently our bees are continually in contact with neonicotinoids from the agricultural environment. We are finding it very difficult to maintain our hives at pollination strength, requiring an increase in use of young queens and replacement nucleus hives to maintain our hives”
By Autumn 2009, Warren Jones comments to The Australian Organic Producer in his article:
“Where Have All The Bees Gone?”: [/B]

http://www.bfa.com.au/Portals/0/BFAFiles/AUT09-where-have-bees-gone.pdf

In this article, he makes it very clear that he believes neonicotinoids represent a real threat to Australia's honey bees, and comments:

“Currently in Australia the demand has never been higher for bee pollination but until more control on the use of neonicotinoids is established available bee numbers are unlikely to improve."
He also points out that- one reason we have heard very little about the impact of neonics in Australia is that there is NO RESEARCH PROGRAMME OR RESEARCH INSTUTE STUDYING THE PROBLEM. Australia does not even have a bee-lab capable of detecting neonics at the ppb level.

“To be a successful crop pollinator you have to have full knowledge of how the chemicals being used in a crop could harm the pollinating bees. We have to use either our own personal experience or overseas studies as there is no current Australian research available,”
Meanwhile, Jeffrey Gibbs, in his article Neonicotinoid Pesticides: To Australian Beekeepers from an Australian Beekeeper[/B], highlights concerns about neonicotinoids and provides some interesting insight into why Australian beekeepers seem to be relatively quiet on this issue – or at least not making a major public fuss.

DOWNLOAD ARTICLE HERE: http://pierreterre.com/blog/neonicotinoids-australia-beekeeper-jeffrey-gibbs-bee-dieoffs-related-nicotinoid-pesticides

Jeffrey's article has some interesting quotes too, such as:


“Last October, I was helping Jack Alt of Deepwater, New South Wales shift a sizable load of bees, from a NEONIC seed treated canola plot at Premer NSW. We were shifting the bees back onto clover, closer to Jack's home. Although the bees had been on a bumper crop of canola, Jack was disturbed that his load of 250 hives had suffered premature swarming, loss of queens, loss of bee numbers and dead-outs. Jack then replaced queens, kept working the bees (as we all would), and kept the load on clover for the next few weeks. I observed the same hives later on a Silver Leaf [Iron Bark] flow. In my opinion there were less than half the bees there should have been, or even less. This was Jack’s second Adverse Experience with his bees foraging canola over the last two years. I asked Jack: “Do you think that this may be because of the seed treatment on canola?” Jack replied, “I don’t think we’ll be working canola anymore.”

Jack is concerned about the (contamination with neonics) of the pollen of Turnip Weed and Salvation Jane coming up afterwards, in the same paddocks.”
(Jack is referring to the fact that neonicotinoids are highly persistent – i.e. they remain in the soil for years after the first planting. They can then be absorbed by other plants growing in that soil, and because they are systemic pesticides, they permeate the plant as it grows, and the poison may then be presented to bees and other non-target insects, through nectar and pollen, at toxic levels. This effect has been observed in scientific studies, such as Bonmatin et al 2004).

In September 2012, this Australian item was published on the net:
"Concern from beekeepers prompts review of some insecticides":


“Anxious apiarists have prompted the nation's chemical regulator to review regulations around insecticides used in the grains, cotton and vegetable industries. The Australian Pesticides and Veterinery Medicines Authority is examing those products which contain neonicotinoids, a relatively new class of chemicals used as seed dressings”.

Find it, by copying and pasting this link into a new web page:

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201209/s3591361.htm

So contrary to the view that Australia’s bees are having no problem with neonicotinoids, there is evidence that suggests otherwise. Seems like yet another argument to defend neonicotinoids that is not based in truth.

CONCLUSION
So let's see if the attack dogs respond to this by
addressing the issues
addressing the facts
engaging in reasoned debate

. . or are we back to personal attacks, harassment, invasion of privacy etc.

I think I can guess in advance what we will see.
 
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#2 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

What we will see is once again you attack a country you know nothing about and as you put it, is very far away. I don't know about the person you quote, I do know there are bleading fools on every contintent, and i know that the Aussie beeks who post here say your not even close on your facts... I tend to belive them.......
 
#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

What we will see is once again you attack a country you know nothing about and as you put it, is very far away. I don't know about the person you quote, I do know there are bleading fools on every contintent, and i know that the Aussie beeks who post here say your not even close on your facts... I tend to belive them.......
[off topic content removed by mod]

I posted links to two articles:
One by Warren Jones - president of the Australian Pollinators Council (?) who has 34 years experience as an Aussie migratory beekeeper. The second is by Jeffrey Gibbs of the Northern Light Candle Company - a beekeeper of decades standing who manufactures candles. Both are extremely concerned about bee deaths linked to neonics.

How is that 'attacking a country'??

I am reporting on the concerns of beekeepers in that country; I am doing them a service by sharing their concerns with the wider world.

Incidentally I know quite a bit about Australia - have visited there and New Zealand and have many friends in both countries, not as many as I have in America, where I have lived for some years, but still, good friends and true.

[off topic content removed by mod]
 
#4 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

Keep it up Borderbeeman, You have pointed out the facts time after time on this fourm . One day before it's it late these American neonics supporters will waken up, I hope. I love bees. Once again I hope to see honey bees thick in the clover on lawn as I did as child in the 50es.
 
#5 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

opps my bad, you attack a countrys beekeprs and farmers. which you are not one.......And your beekkeeping knowledge in AUS is unknown.... we have Aussie beeks here...on this forum..... and they point out your wrong constantly, and yet you persist is spreading mistruths... Yankee joe, have you read Randy Olivers article?? I am betting not....... facts tend to allude some people.... you should really read studies and DATA before weighing in....... squawking from a box does not make one an expert.......

lets send Mr Jones an email and discuss the facts....
 
#6 · (Edited)
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

The honeys which are most-valuable from Australia are wild-floral honeys like acacia, manuka, eucalyptus, bush mallee, myrtle, meadow honey and a dozen others.
Manuka is not even an Australian honey

Many beekeepers, according to Jeffrey Gibb, live solitary lives, ranging through the wild bush, collecting wild honey for sale.
That, being your paraphrase of what Jeff may have really said, is such a distortion of reality it is a joke. Australian beekeeping as carried out in what you call the "wild bush" (not a commonly used term in Australia), is done in langstroth hives with beekeepers following the flow across the country. It is advanced, and highly skilled. They are not a bunch of cave men raiding hives and collecting wild honey.

Incidentally I know quite a bit about Australia - have visited there and New Zealand and have many friends in both countries
OK. So you've been to my country, New Zealand, and have many friends here, Right? Which obviously qualifies you as an expert in our beekeeping related issues. Care to share whose bees it was you looked at while here?

And oh, you are surrounded by 20 miles of continuous rape seed. Yeah Right.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Re: The austrlian distraction

And rather than further edit the last post, are you trying to say there is CCD in Australia? There isn't.

No doubt Aussie beekeepers lose bees to pesticides of several classes including neonicitiniods. But if neonictinoids are to be banned, they have to be shown to be worse.

Up to a couple years ago when it mostly broke, Australia has been subjected to several years of severe drought, really bad even by Australian standards. The drought has killed or weakened large numbers of gum trees, the mainstay of Australian honey production. Bees have faired badly, and when I visited the Melbourne beekeepers club there was a lot of discussion and concern about the issue. I'm telling you this to make you aware there are other things can cause problems to bees, than just pesticides.

Neonicitinoids are a pesticide, and as such are a concern to beekeepers, same as all pesticides are. You got real jumpy the other day when you accused NZ farmers of illegal use of DDT, and had a rant about how bad DDT is. So, are neonicitiniods worse? Any evidence?

I visit Australia regularly, I have friends there, and family, my own daughter lives there. I have even been chased by an angry kangaroo. But merely visiting a country does not necessarily make one an expert on all things about it.
 
#8 ·
Re: The austrlian distraction

I can see why borderbeeman is trying to attack the reality in Australia. The fact that Australia has no varroa, widespread neonicotinoid use, yet overwhelmingly healthy bees is a very uncomfortable truth for the single issue anti neonicotinoid people. Australia is an interesting experiment in progress.
 
#10 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

I think ole Borderbeeman would have been far better off not even bringing up the "Australian distraction". How funny are those arguments. "It's far away". "Few Americans have been there" sounds like something out of a 19th century Harpers Weekly. :). Oh and by the way we are interacting with some of the strange inhabitants in real time right here on Beesource.
 
#14 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night (Bayer, Monsanto, etc picked up the tab). Now I can speak as an authority too about Australia!
I have tried to find ANY logic or thread of meaning in the above statement - but it is as meaningless and substanceless as a 'bucketful of smoke'.

If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute to the debate, maybe you should just not bother.
I mean why go to the effort of even reading this section of the Forum if you have nothing to say?
PS if you were trying for Irony or Sarcasm, you missed by a mile. Maybe you should read some Thurber or Stephen Leacock - or even Groucho - he was pretty good at sarcasm.
 
#16 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

LOL :D

Borderbeeman, re what you say about Manuka honey, sorry, your sources are incorrect.

The New Zealand Manuka plant has a close cousin in Australia, they call teatree. When NZ Manuka became very expensive, the Australians investigated their Teatree honey, but found it did not contain UMF, the ingredient that makes Manuka honey expensive. They then experimentally imported some NZ Manuka plants, but found that when grown in Australia, it also did not contain any UMF.

There has been agitation in Australia to rename their Teatree honey to the NZ Maori name, Manuka, even though it is not the exact same plant, and does not have the same properties as NZ Manuka. I know they have been attempting to find any which way to jump on the NZ Manuka bandwagon. Funny, Australians, who always like to ridicule NZer's about our accent, suddenly want to talk Maori LOL :D
I am not aware of what lies behind the jars you show, I do know we send them bulk Manuka honey for re packing. I will investigate the jars you have pictured and report back on this, won't be today though.

Question for you though, whose bees was it you looked at in NZ?
 
#21 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

Borderbeeman - I would be interested in hearing your answer to Mr. Palmer's question. If you do answer him, please use facts rather than hysteria.
 
#22 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

I have no idea.
Maybe you should look at your varroa treatment. I have had varroa since 1998 and I cannot recall ever "losing a hive to varroa" since I began Integrated Pest Management back in about 2000.

You should get up to speed on the research of Dr Jeff Pettis of the USDA Beltsville lab and also the parallel but independent research of Dr Cedric Alaux from France.

Both of them discovered something quite remarkable. They fed bees a minute dose of neonics - about 1-3ppb of Imidacloprid, at a level they would find in nearby crops. Then they exposed the treated bees to a mild infection with Nosema Ceranae - a bacterial pathogen. The control colonies who were NOT neonics were also exposed to the same levels of Nosema.

The results were very dramatic.
All the colonies which had been fed Imidacloprid collapsed and died of Nosema.
In the colonies which had NOT been fed Imidacloprid, none of the colonies died, even though their exposure to Nosema was the same.

The conclusion, from both Pettis and Alaux was that neonics, evena t the level of just a few parts per billion, cause the bees'immune system severe damage - leaving them open to infection by viruses, bacteria, fungal diseases.

NEONICS MAY BE THE HIV OF THE BEE WORLD
In this sense neonics appear to work like HIV did in humans. In the early 1990s doctors in San Francisco could not understand why they were seeing hundreds of homosexual men, sying of a weird range of illnesses: pneumonia, hepatitis, tuberculosis, cancer, Kaposi's sarcoma. It was bewildering. The only thing they had in common was that they were gay.
Later they discovered the HIV virus in theis systems. They realised that HIV actually destroyed the Immune System in these men, leaving them open to a massive range of infections, which killed them. The men APPEARED to die from cancer, pneumonia, hepatitis etc - but the reality was that they were being killed by HIV. because they HAD NO IMMUNE SYSTEM.

Pettis and Alux's work points to a similar process. Neonics destroy the immune system of bees; there are varroa in the hive and they carry viruses and bacteria. The bees also lose their social communication and grooming ability under the impact of neonics - so they stop grooming mites etc. Result - massive explosion of varroa mites; explosion of viral, bacterial and fungal disease - the beekeeper assumes his hive died of varroa.

It didn't - it died because the bees were poisoned by neonics which destroyed their immune system. the varroa, viruses and bacteria were just 'opportunists' - once the door was kicke in they just invade and take over.

EPILOGUE
Pettis discovered something even more remarkable. When he examined the dead bees which had been fed Imidacloprid - and which died of Nosema infection - he was not able to find a single trace of imidacloprid in the pathology of the dead bees - even though he KNEW they had been dosed with this neonic.

His conclusion was that this was a perfect poison; it kills and leaves no trace whatever, even if you have the best lab in America. Dr Henk Tennekes concluded from all this that:

"There is NO SAFE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE FOR BEES; ANY EXPOSURE DAMAGES THE IMMUNE SYSTEM"

This may give you some insight into why your bees are 'dying of varroa'

Hope this helps/
 
#27 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

You should get up to speed on the research of Dr Jeff Pettis of the USDA Beltsville lab
Maybe it's you who needs to get up to speed with what Jeff Pettis thinks, although I suspect you are just selectively quoting some of his comments as you have done many times before. He made it quite clear that what he saw in the lab he was not observing in the field.

Today, however the leading American researcher who linked the insecticides to outbreaks of bee diseases told Channel 4 News that what he saw in the lab doesn't occur in working hives.

"The lab study certainly seemed very clear that low levels of pesticides were impacting on honey bee health. But when we look in the field we don't see the same results. Even when colonies that were exposed to low levels we're not seeing outbreaks of the gut parasite pathogen that we saw in the lab," said Dr Jeff Pettis of the US Agricultural Research Service.
Pettis also posted this as a comment below an article in the Independent Newspaper which inferred some dark conspiracy and misrepresented what he had claimed.

> 'I noticed in your article that there is an implication that my research
>findings are perhaps being suppressed by the chemical industry. As the author
>of this study, I can tell you that the truth is that the review process on the
>paper has simply been lengthy, as is often the case, due to various factors,
>but that no outside forces are attempting to suppress this scientific
>information. The findings of an interaction between low level pesticide
>exposure and an increase in the gut pathogen Nosema were not unexpected; many
>such interactions are likely within the complex life of a honey bee colony. It
>is not possible to make a direct comparison with a lab study and what might
>occur in the field. Lab studies can give us insights into what may be occurring
>with beehives but we have yet to make this link. Honey bee health is complex
>and our findings support this. They do not provide a direct link to CCD colony
>losses but these results do provide leads for further study. Jeff Pettis
Bbman just recycles this stuff over and over on all the bee forums worldwide and even when he is corrected on one, he will put out the erroneous claim somewhere else where he thinks he will get away with it.
 
#24 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

Borderbeeman, you are writing fiction. Post a link to the report that states what you state. The study I read from Alaux was nothing close to what you state. The study I read showed that N. ceranae killed more bees than did the neonictinoid. The imicolprid did effect the bees but to a lesser amount than the N. ceranae. The combination of the two was more lethal. But the infection of the Nosema also caused the bees to consume more of the tainted sucrose. So larger mortality percentage might be a foregone conclusion.

Post the link to the study that supports your statement if you disagree.
 
#25 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

Borderbeeman, through this thread and another one, I've asked you a number of questions, being quite reasonable, and on topic. You have steadfastly ignored them. Why?

What's to hide?

Can we not have a conversation, rather than a series of lectures?
 
#26 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

I'm reading with interest - out in the wild bush where I live here in Australia.
Oldtimer - could you please give me the Botanical names for manuka and kanuka and I will be able to tell you what we have here and if it is the same.
Must go - my sheela just called me - the roo stew is ready.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

my sheela just called me .
Better put the shrimp on the barby. :D

Manuka = Leptospermum scoparium

Kanuka = Kunzea ericoides

Haven't heard back from the Manuka big guns yet, but some people lower up the totem pole have told me that Borderbeeman is correct, kinda.

Australian honey industry has re-named your Teatree honey, to the Maori (a language not even spoken in Australia) Manuka. So they can jump on the Kiwi shirt tails LOL ;), and sell their product as Manuka. The honey itself does not have the same properties as quality NZ Manuka, the GMO rating is much lower, but by the looks of that advertisement they are not shy to charge an arm and a leg for it regardless. :)

Last time I was talking about this with someone from local industry, he was was adamant they would not let the Aussies sell their honey as Manuka, but looks like you guys have somehow outsmarted us.

So I owe Borderbeeman an apology. He is right, and he is more up to date than me.

But hey. Aussies speaking Maori? :rolleyes:

It will be interesting to see, if now there is a buck in it, Aussies will descend into "Manuka wars", like has been going on here. Kind of like the drug trade. Hive thefts, poisonings, assaults, kidnappings. Yup, where there's money......

For you guys in the US who may doubt this, check this advertisement. 20+ UMF Manuka honey being retailed for what works out to better than US$200.00 a pound. Worth killing to get a site? My hives are either on or near Manuka, they are well camouflaged, and I have cameras.

http://www.comvita.co.nz/health-foods/umf-manuka-honey/umf-20plus-manuka-honey.html

So now I've fully apologised Borderbeeman, it is only right you respond in the same spirit by answering a few of my questions. Let's have a conversation! :)
 
#31 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

cerezha. The European ban is for some, not all neonicotinoids for use on some, not all crops.
The suspension of Imidacloprid, Clothianidin and Thiamethoxam is for two years and comes into force in December 2013.

What do you mean by 'game is over' ?
 
#34 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

My reference here says that the Tea Tree is- Coast Tea-Tree (Leptospermum laevigatum) so it appears to be similar but not the same. It grows here in coastal and wet areas.
The Manuka honey I have seen sold here is from NZ. But I will keep an eye open for any local stuff.
About Australians speaking Maori. Since around 1974 about 650 000 New Zealander's have arrived on our shores and Maori is of course the lingo of preference in some suburbs!
 
#39 ·
Re: The austrlian distraction

"I wouild love to respond to your questions but the Moderator is not allowing me to post in real time or in real locations.
I assume this is to destroy any proper conversation.
"

No BBM, this is because you have a long history of polluting this forum with your intentionally misleading diatribes that are void of supporting facts.

Further, you do not engage in any type of conversation. You simply post your very political statements and then ignore any points others post which contradicted your religion.

Mr Palmer asked :" I keep more than 1000 colonies including wintered nucleus colonies and production colonies. I made 100+ lbs/colony from the honey producers. My bees are surrounded by corn treated with clothianidin. My winter losses are between 10% and 15%...same as always since varroa arrived. Diagnosing the losses, it becomes obvious the most of the losses were from varroa.

So, tell me why my bees aren't aren't sick from neonics.


BBM, please explain how Mr. Palmer can have such good success when, according to you, his bees feed on such poisonous chemicals? That you won't answer this question confirms that you have no intention in engaging in a conversation and are only interested in using this forum as your political soapbox.
 
#76 ·
Re: The austrlian distraction

"I wouild love to respond to your questions but the Moderator is not allowing me to post in real time or in real locations.
I assume this is to destroy any proper conversation.
"

No BBM, this is because you have a long history of polluting this forum with your intentionally misleading diatribes that are void of supporting facts.

Further, you do not engage in any type of conversation. You simply post your very political statements and then ignore any points others post which contradicted your religion.

Mr Palmer asked :" I keep more than 1000 colonies including wintered nucleus colonies and production colonies. I made 100+ lbs/colony from the honey producers. My bees are surrounded by corn treated with clothianidin. My winter losses are between 10% and 15%...same as always since varroa arrived. Diagnosing the losses, it becomes obvious the most of the losses were from varroa.

So, tell me why my bees aren't aren't sick from neonics.


BBM, please explain how Mr. Palmer can have such good success when, according to you, his bees feed on such poisonous chemicals? That you won't answer this question confirms that you have no intention in engaging in a conversation and are only interested in using this forum as your political soapbox.
He did answer the question. He wrote in Post #22 "I have no idea."
 
#41 ·
Re: The austrlian distraction

My guess is that the purpose of posting many of these "politically hot topics" disguised as a genuine conversation is to use the forums as a means of gaining or furthering the search engine optimization of their agendas. There never was any intent to have an informed conversation, only to be found on the first page of some search engines.
 
#42 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

Re Castor Oil Plant,

Quote- "According to the 2007 edition of Guinness World Records, this plant is the most poisonous in the world. Despite this, suicides involving ingestion of castor beans are unheard of in countries like India where castor grows abundantly on the roadsides, which may be attributed to the rather painful and unpleasant symptoms of overdosing on ricin, which can include nausea, diarrhea, tachycardia, hypotension and seizures persisting for up to a week."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil_plant
 
#45 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

..."According to the 2007 edition of Guinness World Records, this plant is the most poisonous in the world.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil_plant
well, in the same article, the sentence just before your citation: "The toxicity of raw castor beans is due to the presence of ricin. Although the lethal dose in adults is considered to be four to eight seeds, reports of actual poisoning are relatively rare." But, I do not understand your point: are you trying to compromise the information I provided or what? I used to work with ricin (not as a poison) and shared my memories from that time. It was my personal experience. I never eat castor beans, thus, I was not aware that even one bean is dangerous. I apologize for my limited personal knowledge.
 
#48 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

I think we need to give the benefit of the doubt to Barry on this one. Any actions he takes are with what he judges to be the best interests of the forum as a whole in mind. This forum isn't either a free for all or a democracy. It is a creation of Barry's.
 
#49 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

I think we need to give the benefit of the doubt to Barry on this one.
Jim,

If I were a moderator, I'd have sent this guy into oblivion long ago, so I have the highest regard for Barry and commend him on his restraint. However, borderman's story doesn't smell right to me and I was just wondering if a moderator could confirm the claims above. It appears to me that when pushed to answer pointed questions he pulls the "moderator won't let me talk card".
 
#53 ·
Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

Grondeau: I checked out your web site and read it end to end. Am I mistaking or is missing from any of this research actual evidence that bees anywhere are actually foraging on corn. There is always lots of lab research indicating at what levels neonics are toxic to bees but no research analyzing what pollens are actually in the hives and what levels of neonics are contained in those pollens. I am with MP on this. We have lots and lots of healthy looking hives sitting adjacent to large fields of corn and have yet to sense there is any direct relationship between strong hives and the acreages of corn nearby. You asked Mr. Palmer what percentage of his forage is corn as if it's a given that there is a percentage. I recently openly asked the forum if anyone has actually seen bees foraging in field corn. Personally, I have not and no one else stepped up to say they had either. Surely there is some data out there analyzing the pollens in the hive and what, if any, poisons are found in such pollen. It seems to me that sunflowers and canola may well be a whole different situation but field corn?
 
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