Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Maintaining amount of hives

24K views 79 replies 26 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
Hello all,
Just a quick question and I should have asked this long ago? If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???
 
#38 ·
I have to confess that I didn't read all of the posts on page 2, but I have to ask a question. The desire to keep 5 hives. . . Please define this. Is that simply as stated 5 total hives, 5 production hives, or the space of 5 hives? You can put 3 nucs in a 10 frame deep with dividers in it. I started 2 this year as 2 frame deeps and they are going great now. (Well truth be told I started 3 but the third didn't turn out) There is GREAT value in my opinion to having nucs. In having the numbers. In my mind I'd consider 2 things. . . First off if the answer is the number of 5 hives, then to accomplish this you will need to catch swarms, or split, or buy once you have a deadout. (you will have them sometime) What I think would be better would be to keep 3 hives as production hives and have 4 or more nucs. Nucs expand well, but not super fast in my experience. My 2 frame nucs were in there for about a month before I gave them their third frame. Then about 2 weeks after that I inserted a drawn frame inbetween the others. (This was a Beautiful frame when it was all capped!!! Solid capped worker brood on a deep frame from top to bottom.)

So bottom line for me I'd consider keeping 2-4 hives for production and 3-4 nucs. (minimum of 5 deep frames total. 6-8 frames would be better, or you can use 8 or 10 frame deeps and keep them on top of each other to use less space, but it does make it a bit of a pain to inspect)
 
#39 ·
perhaps pamelas desire to hold the line at 5 hives is due to 1. A life/job, 2. a lack of space , 3.the inability to purchase more equipment or perhaps a desire to get more frames of comb to take better advantage of her flows. Ir was a very simple question. There was no information to draw any conclusions about her desire or ability to be intimate with her bees.
 
#40 ·
Ir was a very simple question. There was no information to draw any conclusions about her desire or ability to be intimate with her bees.
Okay, so how do you answer her? How can she maintain at a steady number of 5? Some will die and need to be replaced. Some will outgrow their hives and will need to be dealt with in some manner, or her neighbors may have Pamela's bees in their eaves.
 
#44 ·
Mike,
The only proof I have of those 2 improvements is the results. Changing configuration and incorporating the pollen box were done over a two year period - in parallel. When they were both in place, suddenly, I had a marked improvement in wintering. Went from 25% feeble clusters in Feb to constently adequate cluster size. Can't say wihich of the two changes had the most effect, but suspect the pollen box was the key. The configuration change supported the pollen box maneuver.

By moving a shallow of brood below the single deep during the spring expansion, that shallow is backfilled with long-term pollen, bee bread. It remains there until August when fall expansion starts to rear wintering young bees. August, locally, is a period of low field pollen availability. The colony dips into their pollen reserve to start the fall expansion. By first frost, the pollen box is empty and is left in place going into winter. Used in late winter to CB honey above the brood nest.

This doesn't make much sense until you recognize the bees heritage. Their instincts were developed for life in the tree hollow of extended forest. Not much fall flow in the forest. What the pollen box is intended to do is accommodate their instincts in a Lang hive. The hypothesis is that in the vertical tree hollow, they store pollen in the period when it's plentiful, the spring. As the brood nest grows upward, the pollen reserve is stored at the bottom. Come time to rear wintering bees, the broodnest grows downward into the pollen reserve. In so doing, the cluster winters in the bottom with their honey stores overhead to grow into in the late winter. The small-cell folks call that the "core" broodnest.

Note that in the pollen box application the brood nest does not recede to the bottom. Their reluctance to jump the gap at the interbar space and their preference for maintaining brood in the larger volume of the deep keeps the winter cluster in the deep.

You ask how these observations affect colony performance. Although colony reservaltions about Lang design are not limited to the circumstance here, certainly, wintering is a biggee.

Would you go for a little skull drill? Picking a circumstance that we both see (?) I would like to see your answer. The situation: A starter colony has nearly filled their first deep.(70 to 90%) A second deep is added above. There is some delay in the start of comb-drawing in the added, upper deep of foundation. The question: What are the factors influencing the length of the delay - both shortening and lengthening?
Cheers,
Walt
 
#46 ·
Mike,
The only proof I have of those 2 improvements is the results. Changing configuration and incorporating the pollen box were done over a two year period - in parallel. When they were both in place, suddenly, I had a marked improvement in wintering. Went from 25% feeble clusters in Feb to constently adequate cluster size. Can't say wihich of the two changes had the most effect, but suspect the pollen box was the key. The configuration change supported the pollen box maneuver.
Walt
An alternative hypothesis...since you rely on supercedure to requeen you colonies, it figures that your bees have acclimatized to your conditions, and their genetics have improved through natural selection. An hypothesis that is as valid as yours?
 
#48 ·
When I first read Pamela's question I of course related it to my own experience.
By city ordinance I am only allowed to have 2 hives, and am supposed to do all I can to prevent swarming. How to accomplish this? If I do splits, I have too many hives. If I don't I have to result to other means of swarm control.
Perhaps Pamela is in a similar situation and has constraints that make 5 hive optimal. My choice to date is to go ahead and do the splits and then combine, (the city doesn't keep a very close eye on us) but will start CB next year.
 
#53 ·
understood, that's why i suggested just taking the queen. not really splitting, but the same mo as a cut down split. i.e. just prior to main flow, take queen (but not frames of bees), go back a week later and remove queen cells, (maybe leave one good one), go back a month later and check for mated queen, (or put in new queen).

i did a cut down split on one of my strong hives this spring, (read about it on bushfarms.com, under swarm prevention i think). it worked exactly as mike bush said it might.
 
#55 ·
On the issue of the queen and a gap. I am not saying this is correct, I am saying this is how I understand the explanation of a problem. Notice I said "A" problem, no the "The" problem.

First is the theory that a queen starts at the first cell and lays an egg. she then moves to an adjacent egg to lay the next. This is argued as the method the queen will lay maximum brood. If the queen passed an empty cell to lay time was lost. Equals less efficiency. The overall idea is that the queen then lays in a pattern that has the first egg at the center of a circle and continues to spiral outwardly from this center laying in the next adjacent empty cell. This explains why a nest woudl be round in cross section. but does not explain to me how it widens into a ball. Btu that is another issue and it never did get addressed for me anyway. Anyway the queen is doing her circling thing with the next available cell right a her nose merrily laying eggs to beat the band. but then suddenly the location where the next empty cell should be is a strip of wood. This disrupts the queens progress to the next empty cell. she turns around and heads back only to find cells full of eggs. she must continue to hint around and reestablish her natural pattern of egg laying. This could in theory cause such a disruption that the queen actually abandons that entire pattern and finds a new location to start again. Possibly requiring that she search for and find another completely empty comb. I suspect it would actually be very hard to know just exactly how much this disruption effects laying. I can imagine a female dog that has chosen it location to whelp. To then only be moved. She may spend hours or even a day or more adjusting to such a disruption. It may be just a disruption of a few minutes. I have heard from several sources that queens are reluctant to cross the gap between fraems. deep frames present fewer gaps than med or shallow. One of the sources I was reading on this issue promoted the use of only ultra or extra deep fraems for a brood box. a frame large enough to contain an entire laying patter, as it only gets so large, with no disruptions.

So although med and even shallow boxes are used, and queens to lay in them. They do work. But are they the best choice? It is not so much a matter of all brood being lost. but a matter of how much brood is being lost.

So do I think that the size of fraems in the brood box will make or break a beekeeper. By no means. But it could be a way to improve your management for those looking for ways to improve.

So far my direct observations of how a queen lays is not consistent with the above. At least in the early part of the season. I have observed twice now that the queen will go to the highest point in the hive that contains empty cells and begin laying. In both cases it struck me as the queen was getting as far away from the entrance as possible. As she lays she will then be forced to move downward. or toward the entrance to find new empty cells. In 21 days as the first eggs are emerging. the queen is far removed from that location in the hive. the bees will then fill that cell with nectar. Eventually the queen gets pushed back down toward the entrance where, Hopefully, the brood nest will be maintained for the season. that or she runs out of room and it is time for the colony to swarm.

I watched almost daily as a queen filled almost two full deep boxes with brood in this way. IT did strike me that she was clearly either in the upper or the lower box. but it never appeared she was laying in both boxes at the same time. It had the effect of something like she was in one room or the other. but the gap clearly made a difference. not necessarily a problem.
 
#57 ·
Thank you all for your responses. I am now thoroughly confused, but will go with my best instinct and read, read, read. I know you all have your own way of beekeeping and I really enjoy reading what you have to say. I am brand new to this and have been learning so much and hopefully don't lose my bees for my ignorance. I am old-fashioned in lots of ways and believe that they know way more than we do. I think lots of common sense will go along way. I just want to do right by them. They give me more than I ever asked for. It is a challenge for me and I don't really care to go into the Scientific way of doing things. Just as long as they are ok, I will let nature stay in charge. The bees have done fine without us for a long time. Thanks for all of your help and comments and suggestions.
 
#59 ·
I'm glad to see you are still w/ us. More participation from you, especially on your own Thread, would help us better understand your goals and thereby make suggestions more aplicable to your situation.

What exactly is your situation? Are you averse to splitting or simply don't want to lest you make a mistake, do more harm than good. Or what?

Thanks for a reply.
 
#63 ·
Mike,
Thought I had stomped the worm of the flat-bottomed brood nest, but maybe not. With a deep on the bottom, the flat bottom inhibits the storing of the natural pollen reserve below. The tendency of the colony to fill the deep frames with brood leaves no comb below for pollen. Didn't see the bee bread below until the brood nest was turned loose (unlimited) by checkerboarding. Some colonies would fill the bottom deep with bee bread. Note that it is seen more readily on all-medium configurations with unlimited brood nest, and sometimes referred to as "pollen bound."

To help the colony build their pollen reserve below, early in the buildup, a shallow of brood is moved below the deep. Colony preference for rearing brood in a deep gets that shallow below filled with bee bread when pollen is plentiful in the spring. When consumption of the pollen reserve starts in early August, it is done in the familier arch like the top (but upside down) and some brood is reared in the arch for a rounded bottom of the the brood nest. Rearing brood in the bottom shallow is temporary, and disappears by Sept. leaving the comb empty going into winter.

Another note of significance: In the '07 season, a late freeze took out all pollen sources for nearly 3 months. The colonies made do for that period without tapping their box of pollen below. In other words, the pollen reserve at the bottom is dedicated to the August buildup.

I think it's safe to say that the pollen reserve is a survival trait that is inhibited by Lang hive design.

Walt
 
#66 ·
Mike,
Thought I had stomped the worm of the flat-bottomed brood nest, but maybe not. With a deep on the bottom, the flat bottom inhibits the storing of the natural pollen reserve below. The tendency of the colony to fill the deep frames with brood leaves no comb below for pollen. Didn't see the bee bread below until the brood nest was turned loose (unlimited) by checkerboarding. Some colonies would fill the bottom deep with bee bread. Note that it is seen more readily on all-medium configurations with unlimited brood nest, and sometimes referred to as "pollen bound."

This doesn't make much sense until you recognize the bees heritage. Their instincts were developed for life in the tree hollow of extended forest. Not much fall flow in the forest. What the pollen box is intended to do is accommodate their instincts in a Lang hive. The hypothesis is that in the vertical tree hollow, they store pollen in the period when it's plentiful, the spring. As the brood nest grows upward, the pollen reserve is stored at the bottom. Come time to rear wintering bees, the broodnest grows downward into the pollen reserve. In so doing, the cluster winters in the bottom with their honey stores overhead to grow into in the late winter. The small-cell folks call that the "core" broodnest.

Walt
Seems to me, that in a natural, vertical tree cavity, there's no differentiation between comb...deep, shallow, or otherwise. The bees store pollen below the active broodnest even though the combs in a tree are continous. I believe it has everything to do with how much comb there is overhead...above the bottom of the cavity. If you're running an unlimited broodnest, I guess it depends on what you mean by unlimited. That the bees have more than enough room above the lowest combs to raise the brood they want, and to store the feed they need. If they're limited by an excluder, or lack of broodcomb above, because all combs are filled with honey, then they're forced down and can't store a box of pollen below...but they will store pollen near the outside combs...as the center is used for brood.

I don't believe pollen storage below has anything to do with the depth of the combs placed on the bottom board, or any space between top and bottom bars, but rather has to do with the height of the broodnest. Yes, the colony is moved down when rearing winter bees...by incoming nectar. All the way down? Not if the cavity in the tree, or the one you create is tall enough. I winter in 2d1m, as the smallest unit. Many of my hives are taller going into winter. 3d1m, 1d3m, 6m, etc. I never remove extra brood boxes from the bottom. As I said the other day, I looked at a dozen colonies the other day. None of the clusters were located at the bottom of the bottom box. Most had deeps on the bottom. No clusters were flat.

Pollen bound...at least in my colonies, would refer to a condition where the core of the broodnest is so filled with pollen, that the queen has no, or very few open cells in which to lay eggs. I see this often in colonies with failing queens and/or being compromised by varroa/viruses. Pollen stored below the active brood rearing cluster is, as you say, normal.
 
#65 · (Edited by Moderator)
#67 ·
Mike,
This is just another case of what we see being different and conclusions/opinions drawn from those observations also being different. I say again, this doesn't mean that either one of us is WRONG.

Some time back, you reported weighing, and feeding if required, up to 160 lbs. My reaction at the time was that did not indicate that your wintering config. was filled. Two deeps and a medium should weigh at least 200 lbs if filled. The fact that you look up from the bottom and see a recessed, rounded cluster tells me that your clusters are not going into winter in the bottom box.

That's not what we see in Dixie. With some seasonal exceptions, our bees winter in the filled bottom deep. A rounded cluster would have to protrude through the bottom board.
That doesn't happen often.

Give me a break in your incessant efforts to debunk anything I say.
Walt
 
#68 ·
If I lived where they only allowed two hives I would go into winter with two hives each with a nuc on top. I seriously doubt that a non beekeeper would recognize it as four hives and I seriously doubt that a beekeeper would consider the nucs "hives" on their own. When you dog has puppies and you live where you're only allowed two dogs have you violated the law? I think it depends on how big the dogs get before you do something...
 
#69 · (Edited)
Walt, I am a great fan but also want to say that I have followed your writings for a while and admire your achievements but found the lead off to be kind of abrasive and uppity (post#8)
‘Am also amazed how many beekeepers still think… ‘
which may have set the tone to the next posts. I am not a poet but have been told frequently that
‘you unknowingly step on the toes of your fellows and they retaliate, seemingly without provocation’
Seems like a firestorm of posts that sours the discussion followed. Keep writing, post your white paper for evidence, and dance (even if you have no place to do it but in your living room).
I have no wisdom, just observations and regurgitation.
 
#74 ·
I have followed your writings for a while and admire your achievements but found the lead off to be kind of abrasive and uppity (post#8)

‘you unknowingly step on the toes of your fellows and they retaliate, seemingly without provocation’
Seems like a firestorm of posts that sours the discussion followed.
Walt, you asked and I'll tell you...

Your premise that says all previous beekeeping literature, that came before your nectar management, swarm prep C/O date theory, and all scientists and professional beekeepers since the beginning of time...have got it wrong. This is how you open the document you sent me. This is how you usually introduce your dogma. I can';t abide this kind of attitude, and if you're going to continue in this vein, I'm going to present another side when I feel it's appropriate. If you say your management theories are the one and only way, I'll present what I've found in my life with the bees, if I feel it's different than yours and important enough to disagree. When you make seemingly outlandish claims, my hackles are raised

Nothing personal Walt, just that both sides of the coin must be shown.
 
#71 ·
Thanks Sqt, I deleted about 1/2 of what I had typed and it was incomplete. Let me know if it is still not clear (lunch hour ending, fast typing)
 
#72 ·
minz,
Interesting that you should take it that way. My friends and family have been telling me for years that I have not been agressive enough in pushing what I believe to be in the best interest of beekeepers. Normally, I'm fairly passive in presentation of the concepts. The concepts are out there - use 'em, if you choose. But I turned 80 a couple months ago. Maybe that's the crotchety threshold. I am tiring of the abuse from those I'm trying to help. Didn't mean for it to show, though.
Thanks,
Walt
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top