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Joints on hive bodies

21K views 43 replies 22 participants last post by  cerezha 
#1 ·
I just joined the forum and have a question about building hive bodies. I plan on using 3/4 plywood and have a question about alternatives to the standard box joint.

I would like to miter the ends on a 45 and use 1/4 inch dowels, screws and glue to hole them together. If necessary I can also use fiberglass tape and resin to seal the joint and strengten it a bit. I am planning on using resin to weatherproof the outside of the hive body.

Will this provide enough stability to the hive body?

Thanks,

Al
 
#27 ·
I would build them how ever I wanted to if I was you. Use what ever skills you have with what ever materials you can get. I have built hives with box joints, butt joints and rabbit joints. Butt joint is the fastest & easiest. The rabbit joint is probably the next fastest and next easiest. The box joint is probably the most costly and requires a bit of setup. A good dado blade is expensive and getting the setup is a pain. I have a saw with a dado blade and a box joint jig that is dedicated for my box joints. Hands down, the box joint is the strongest. It has more gluing surface area than the others too. Stays square. Drop one of those butt joined or rabbit joined boxes on its corner, or pry up on that corner after is been glued down with propolis and you will appreciate the strength of the box joint. Regardless of the glue and fasteners used.

That being said. I have some butt and rabbit joined boxes that I have used for a few years & they work well. So I am not knocking them at all. I just have to be gentle with em. I built them before I had the skill or tools to cut the box joints. But a hundred dollar dado blade later and an extra table saw, box joints are the way for me. If you want similar strength of a box joint, there is an easy way. Instead of 6 interlocking fingers or so on the end of the board, just cut two, or one or three. They can be cut with a jig saw, and dont have to have too much precision.

Any way you go, it'll be fine. If it doesnt work for ya, you will do something different ;) .

Rob
 
#29 ·
After reading this thread, really I was besides myself. The traditional box corner is a dado corner and has been around since 1853. Why did they choose this corner, because it was the strongest corner they could make. Problem is there are twice the amount of cut edges that could damage and their fasteners go into end grain. Side problems are when manufacturing them, one mistake and the entire box is trash, painting is required to keep moisture out of the cut edges. Over the years all sorts of paints have been used, but fail year after year. Just look in any bee magazine to prove the point. Purchasing the brackets serve many current problems; never have to dado again; less cut edges on corners; no end grain fasteners; wood can't warp; wood also won't crack due to the constrictive dado cuts; the humidity inside the hive causes probably most of the paint failure; leaving the panels natural allows everything to breathe; if a panel breaks it is simple to remove and replace it saving many hours repairing; the box can be thrown and won't break; the problems due to frame rests breaking is solved; also have added locking clips that lines up and holds everything together. You can paint the panels used with the Eco Bee Box, or left natural it is an option. How many problems do you need to encounter with a traditional box and how many hours fixing it when a solution is there that solves all of them and is stronger in the end.
 
#30 ·
Properly painted (alkyd primer followed by high quality paint) and box joints will last indefinitely. Note that you must PROPERLY paint the joints -- they must be tight or filled completely, you MUST use a good primer, and you must use high quality paint that sticks well.

Repainting is only required every decade or so -- my brother's boxes look new and they have been in use for seven years now. May repaint any that are not in use this winter just for the hell of it, but done right it's not a big deal.

I still think that properly made boxes with box joints in good lumber properly painted are permanent. I certainly make all of mine as if that were the case, wrong place to save money.

"naturally weathered" pine will rot in a few years.

Peter
 
#31 ·
I support Psfreds claims ALMOST, they will last a long time, but not forever. The supers(deeps) that my father and Grandfather built in the 40's are still functional, but the repair pieces on the top and bottom are numerous. They have reached the end of their economic life.

Crazy Roland
 
#32 ·
Quite the boxes you have. I personally have hundreds of traditional dado boxes that are warped, cracked, chipped, peeling, bowed and so forth. I have boxes that I had purchased two years ago that by the time I got the boxes home they changed enough they couldn't fit into each other without damaging the panel. It sounds as though you don't ever do repairs to your boxes either, must have been good wood back then in the 40's. Each large outfit I come across, I take pictures of their equipment, and they ALL are peeling, cracked, warping, hive tool damage, frame rests broken, and so forth. In a phone call to a my bee supplier in California last year, I asked what they do with their old boxes. Response, "we spend countless hours refurbishing our boxes each year". I am a General Contractor and have worked with wood since I was first able to walk. The dado corner is the worst part of the bee box. The second worst part of the box is the 3/8" x 5/8" frame rest. Sealants, paints, or whatever a person chooses to protect the wood is always a good option as long as it does it's job and doesn't fail, doesn't harm the bees, and in repairing doesn't hurt the beekeeper. So many additives are and have been in paints throughout the last 100 years that are harmful. Putting nails into end grain like a pin cushion is also a very weak way to fasten a box. The screw or nail absorbs the moisture in the wood, either from the outside of the box or from the humidity the bees create on the inside of the box, then rusts and rots the wood around the fastener. The natural way for the board to go once the fastener is weak is out.
 
#33 ·
Apparently I was less than precise in my wording:

The deeps from the 40's have most of the upper and lower edges already replaced. They have been repainted probably once a decade. Most likely, only a fraction (quarter) of them survive, so we are seeing the best of the best from that time period. It is my opinion that although they are still serviceable, they do not function as well as a new super, and that they are at the end of their service life. Their time is up.

Crazy Roland
 
#34 ·
Roland...Unless you are moving your boxes, the more dilapidated your boxes are, the better. I used to tell everyone, first thing you need to do to a new box is, grab a ball ping hammer and give it a good working over. Bees will survive better in boxes that don't fit well, are not air tight, and leak.

cchoganjr
 
#35 ·
I like my “cheapo” plywood boxes I made. I got 21 8-frame mediums from 2 sheets of 3/8'' sheathing and 2 8' 2x4s. I mitered the corners and doubled the ends, then ripped 3/8'' strips from the 2x4s and glued and stapled these to the top and bottom of the long sides. The corners are well glued and stapled and the boxes are quite rigid. Cutout took about 2 hours and assembly between 3 and 4.

I consider these to be temporary boxes as I hope to begin selling a few nucs next year and these will be part of the deal. I did give all the boxes a coat of exterior stain that I applied with a cheap sprayer.

I really like the cleats at the top and bottom. It gives a good handhold and stiffens the sides. They also make the exterior dimensions a standard size for mix and match.
 
#37 ·
I have tendency to do everything in my own way. Since bees are only hobby, I feel I do not need to stick to beekeepers dogmas. When I inherited bees in old semi-decomposed boxes, deteriorated finger-joints amused my bee-inexperienced soul. Finger-joints (in my understanding) has a large contact area, which is beneficial for gluing. It is used in furniture. But in the hive? Weird - glue is not used (at lest in my old boxes). Instead glue, nails has been placed in every segment! Nails made a path to water inside the wood and there is not much solid wood for stability (between nail and end/side of the finger) left. I apologize for criticizing the dogma, but, it seems to me that this type of joint with nails is not really suitable for boxes exposed to weather and humidity from inside. Also, hive-tool easily destroys the top/bottom joints. Large non-sealed surface between "fingers" works to disadvantage - it is perfect place to accumulate the water from outside and from inside the hive. It is called "capillary forces" - they will keep water between finger joints. From this prospective, butt joint is better - smaller surface for water. I made a few boxes using butt joints glued with liquid nails and screwed by quite strong screws (compensation for weak joint). Exposed side of the plank was sealed using high-quality primer/sealer. Screws were placed 1/4'deep in the wood, patched with epoxy and sealed. I have also a few new "classical" boxes. So, in 10 years, I shall report if any difference between two designs. Sergey
 
#38 ·
#39 ·
Note that you must use hot dip galvanized, not polymer coated, nails if you expect them not to rust. Those fancy new polymer "fake zinc" coatings do not survive the passage of the nail through wood, so you are using a bare steel nail, and it will rust in a few years. Honest-to-pete zinc galvanized nails, covered with alkyd primer, will NOT rust.

Modern glue (Titebond III or polyurethane) will prevent all the problems of bare wood surfaces in the joints, and I would expect new boxes, properly cared for, to outlast ones made in the 40's for that reason -- in those days, glue choices were limited, and I would expect most time none was used at all.

Boxes were much cheaper only a few years ago, so replacing them was just part of keeping bees, not really so much of a big deal. These days, not taking care of boxes to make them last as long as possible is a way to lose big money. Look at it this way -- if you buy premium paint at $30 a gallon, it costs about $0.60 to paint a box. If that box then needs painting every say 5 years, but lasts 25 years, is it cheaper to buy a new $10 box every ten years instead? I think not. If you buy off-color paint, the cost becomes negligable other than the time to paint them, and even that isn't a huge expense if you paint them BEFORE the old paint fails.

I also suspect that deteriorating boxes waste more time in the field than rotating them and painting them would if planned for. Waiting until they are rotting and falling apart and then trying to fix them won't work very well, I think.

Peter
 
#40 ·
Good thread. I built a couple more bottom boards this weekend from 2x4 stock here is the link that was provided to me:
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/bottomboard/bottomboard.htm
the 1/8”cloth and paint is the most expensive part. Seems like I have nothing original to say but to just build it. I would say if you are going to do plywood I use T1-11 exterior siding for all my nucs. I find it is less expensive at the lumber store I go to than the big box plywood and I have not had it come apart (yet).
Bush Bees is on the same size everything kick and he uses mediums. I wish I had heard it before I started.
 
#41 ·
Psfred wrote:

I would expect new boxes, properly cared for, to outlast ones made in the 40's for that reason -- in those days, glue choices were limited, and I would expect most time none was used at all.

I agree.

As for nails, we have found Maze double dipped galvanized nails from Peru Illinois to be the best.

Cerezha - a frequent coat of good paint, hopefully with a lot of linseed oil in it, will overcome all your concerns with end grain, and seal the nail.

Crazy Roland
 
#42 ·
Roland
I agree that proper gluing and paint would address many issues, but I still uncomfortable with nails - the finger is too small to accommodate a standard size nail. I made a few standard mediums - all these nails... How many, 40 per box? Whoever invented this design - it is just too complicated for people like me without tradition behind. If it is a butt joint and screws, you could easily unscrew damaged panel and replace it if necessary (in such case screws must be open). Similarly - the frame. In another thread, people discussed how many nails they use per one frame - 20!!!!!! Manual labor! I guess, for true beekeepers, classical hardware is the way to go, but not for me... I simplified the box, I use 1x2 plank and screws for handles and I use top bar from the frame for foundationless "frame". Right now, I have approximately the same number of classical and modified boxes. Hopefully, I'll keep my hobby long enough to see a difference. The thing is that I am a hobbyist, I could afford what I am doing and I am doing it for fun (and some honey). Commercial beekeeping is entirely different. I would never do it commercially - too risky and stressful!

By the way, Roland - oil-based paint? Here in California, forget it! It is banned in CA, only latex and may be acrylic.... I love linseed oil, but, unfortunately, it is not doing well in CA - too much heat and UV. I tried, it stayed for 6 mo may be...
Sergey
 
#43 ·
Christian says 36 - 7 d nails, and 4 - 5 d per deep.

We have tried Soyguard, a soy product, with good results. That should please the tree huggers. It acts like linseed oil, but cleans up with water.

Can you buy Rustoleum 7715 silver? We mix 2 parts linseed and one part Rustoleum for our old equipment.

Crazy Roland
 
#44 ·
Roland
many thanks, I definitely will try. But, you know, SoCal weather... our biggest enemy is sun and UV. In Russia, we used to coat the whole log-houses with boiled linseed oil and it stays for decades - beautiful golden color! Here, linseed oil fails so quickly! Recently we completely re-did the trim on the house. Since they forbid oil-base paint, we need to remove all old oil-based paint (I love oil), sand, prime everything and paint with latex... The guy who did paint job told me that actually, latex is better in our area because it does not dry out as much as oil-based paint. When it dry - it cracks... a lot of learning... I definitely will see if Rustoleum 7715 silver and Soyguard available here. Have a nice day, Sergey
 
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