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View Full Version : Simplified Inch Dimensions & Using As Bait Hive



jtcweb
05-09-2013, 09:10 AM
Hello,

I am a somewhat new beekeeper (yet to have my first successful over winter) using standard Langstroth hives. I am interested in trying a Warre hive but have to believe there is a simpler set of dimensions. If it is supposed to be the peoples hive that is easy to build, then measurements in 32th of an inch seems excessive. I suspect that is connected to a direct conversion from metric. Has anyone worked out a set of plans that use standard US measurements and lumber?

Also I would likely need to populate a Warre hive I build from a swarm, has anyone tried using a single Warre box as a bait hive up in a tree and then when a swarm moved in move it to a hive stack on the ground?

Thanks,
Jerry

Bubbles
05-09-2013, 09:17 PM
Here's a link that shows measurements in inches.
http://www.warre.biobees.com/warre_hive_plans_imperial.pdf

And here's a link that shows how to make a bait hive using a Warre hive box.
http://yabeep.blogspot.com/2009/06/moving-swarm-into-your-warre-hive.html

Hope this helps.

jtcweb
05-10-2013, 07:20 AM
Yeah I saw the plans on the biobees site, however there has to be a way to simplify some of the measurements. I just don't know what dimensions are critical. For example the height of the boxes is listed as 8-9/32", couldn't it be made with a 1x10 which is actually 9-1/4" or about 1" taller. Would this make a difference? Why cut 31/32" from the height of each box? Also I'm not quite following the thickness of the top boards has to be 1/32" less than 3/8" and the space between them is 1/32" less than 1/2".

Ravenzero
05-10-2013, 07:31 AM
They sell metric rulers at home depot for 3 bucks. Save yourself the headache of conversion.

ubernerd
05-10-2013, 07:38 AM
Yeah I saw the plans on the biobees site, however there has to be a way to simplify some of the measurements. I just don't know dimensions are critical. For example the height of the boxes is listed as 8-9/32", couldn't it be made with a 1x10 which is actually 9-1/4" or about 1" taller. Would this make a difference? Why cut 31/32" from the height of each box? Also I'm not quite following the thickness of the top boards has to be 1/32" less than 3/8" and the space between them is 1/32" less than 1/2".

There are some folks out there who have reported using 1x10 (or 2x10) lumber, uncut in width as a way to make boxes and seem happy with them. I started down that road this year and so far, all seems fine. My first year boxes were a bit under size in internal dimensions, and the bees liked 'em just fine. I'm sure that just a bit over size will be fine too.

210 mm is not some magic number (ask Delon...), and last time I checked the bees don't have miniature tool belts and tape measures to check internal dimensions of the boxes they inhabit. :) As long as you're close, Warre's ideas will still hold true.

The only disadvantage of being slightly "off" in your size is that you may not be able to easily trade parts with a fellow beek. Around my neck of the woods, that's not really an issue b/c I think I'm the only one doing Warres.

The top-bar spacing and width may me more important. I'm not sure about that. I *think* that has to do with comb thickness and bee space. I'd be more reticent to play much with that.

jtcweb
05-10-2013, 11:12 AM
I think what is important is the bee space which I understand is (optimally) 3/8". These plans have just short of 1/2" between the bars which is a bit more than "bee space".

Joseph Clemens
05-10-2013, 11:33 AM
Bee space ranges between 1/4" and 3/8", 5/16" works just fine, and the worker bees can sometimes squeeze through a space that is slightly less than 1/4", but they will also, more readily, fill that space with propolis.

For instance, if you're creating Top Bars, by themselves, or for frames, spacers (such as End Bars), that project 5/32" on each side of the Top Bars, will, when pushed together, produce a space of 5/16" between those Top Bars. In that case, 5/32" spacing, is necessary, if the 5/16" bee space is the objective.

jtcweb
05-10-2013, 01:15 PM
Then why are the bars in a Warre hive almost 1/2" apart?

Mtedcarr4
05-11-2013, 11:02 PM
the issue is that the combs need to be apart 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 center to center as well . this may make a spaqce between top bars more than 3/8 if the top bars are 7/8 wide or smaller

Bubbles
05-12-2013, 03:29 PM
Why don't you just use your Langstroth hive and manage it Warre style? Just don't add foundation in the frames. That way, you don't have to build anything new.

The Honey Girl's Boy
05-12-2013, 04:05 PM
Round the measurements to the nearest workable number i.e. 8 9/32" is 8 1/4" - 1/32" under a 1/2" is 1/2" Even with state of the art saws and craftsmanship getting hives within
1/32" is near impossible. Nailing one side tighten then the other side will loose 1/32". Get it as close as you can the bees will love it. It's not really rocket science.

jtcweb
05-13-2013, 11:59 AM
I have been moving to foundation-less frames. I have some woodworking skills and the Warre looks like something I could build easily as I expand the number of hives I have.


Why don't you just use your Langstroth hive and manage it Warre style? Just don't add foundation in the frames. That way, you don't have to build anything new.

Mtedcarr4
05-14-2013, 09:44 PM
Why don't you just use your Langstroth hive and manage it Warre style? Just don't add foundation in the frames. That way, you don't have to build anything new.

His & my answer is " because I want to"

jadebees
05-16-2013, 03:56 PM
Use 2 boxes on a stand for a lure. Put a Lang type inner cover in there. Forget the quilt. A sheet of ply at 48" makes nice boxes at 7& 7/8". Very close to orig. Metric. Been using Warre 5 years, make the inside 12",,bars12.75", by 1" wide. Champfer 7/16 ,,w 3/8 thick bars. Made so many, it's memorized. Good luck!

Zonker
05-19-2013, 09:37 PM
I think that part of the warre way is the area of the box, so using taller lumber would have no effect. Also the height would not make a box incompatible with standard warre boxes. I'll convert my plans to normal English dimensions and post them, but can't do it till Wednesday. I don't use frames, so I don't have any real idea about making them cheap and easy. If someone has a system for frames let me know and I'll put that in the plans too.

jtcweb
05-20-2013, 07:02 AM
This may sound like a dumb question but was France using the metric system in the days of Warre? If not does anyone have the original inch dimensions?

Also has anyone considered making comb guide board like the Perone hive and just put it between the Warre boxes? Then you would just make a box without cutting the rabbit. Also you could flip the box over and cut the comb from the sidewall of the box and lift the box off leaving the comb sitting there.

P.S. While I feel the metric system is superior, I live in an inch/foot country and that's how I have to buy all my materials.

Ravenzero
05-20-2013, 03:28 PM
The metric system was introduced by France in 1799, so yes, the original plans were Metric as well.

jtcweb
05-21-2013, 10:23 AM
Wow I never realized the metric system has been in use that long.


The metric system was introduced by France in 1799, so yes, the original plans were Metric as well.

Providence Hills
06-21-2013, 12:24 PM
What does Champfer 7/16 ,,w 3/8 thick bars mean?

A. S. Templeton
06-21-2013, 07:03 PM
If you actually read Beekeeping For All (find the Heaf translation), you'll find out why you cannot omit the quilt or simply (attempt to) run Langstroth boxes as Warré hives.

And if you ever hope to trade in Warré hive equipment you'd better stick to the metric dimensions.

Half an inch gap between top bars is too wide; better study up.

jadebees
06-24-2013, 11:49 AM
If you actually read Beekeeping For All (find the Heaf translation), you'll find out why you cannot omit the quilt or simply (attempt to) run Langstroth boxes as Warré hives.

And if you ever hope to trade in Warré hive equipment you'd better stick to the metric dimensions.

Half an inch gap between top bars is too wide; better study up.

I have read that, but a 1" topbar width leaves a 3/8 remainder for bee-space. Thats,1&3/8ths. Do the math! No matter what was written, I have used the dimesions converted to inches, for years. Also, the standard inner feeder cover ,as commonly used in Lang. Hives is convenient, costs less time, and allows me to feed easily, with a spare box, and a wide mouth mason jar. I dont like the quilt, although I do understand the theory and use of it. After 2 years of using quilts I abandoned them as an unneeded waste of time. Also winter kills in hives dropped, probably as a result. You need to take some chances, scoldy fanboy! P.S. its my hobby, not an obsession with Abbe~ Warre's work. You would like my hives, ifyou have an open mind. Thanks for the input.

A. S. Templeton
06-25-2013, 12:47 AM
I have read that, but a 1" topbar width leaves a 3/8 remainder for bee-space. Thats,1&3/8ths. Do the math! No matter what was written, I have used the dimesions converted to inches, for years. Also, the standard inner feeder cover ,as commonly used in Lang. Hives is convenient, costs less time, and allows me to feed easily, with a spare box, and a wide mouth mason jar. I dont like the quilt, although I do understand the theory and use of it. After 2 years of using quilts I abandoned them as an unneeded waste of time. Also winter kills in hives dropped, probably as a result. You need to take some chances, scoldy fanboy! P.S. its my hobby, not an obsession with Abbe~ Warre's work. You would like my hives, ifyou have an open mind. Thanks for the input.

Well, what you are doing is not consistent with Warré means or methods, and so your postings are OT in this section of the beesource forum. And I don't believe your in-your-face sarcasm or name-calling are called for. :no: Evidently with your mere month's presence in beesource you have yet to learn your way around and find the right category for your, er, style of beekeeping.

I'll help you out and report your misconduct to the moderators. Maybe they'll let you off with a friendly warning.

jadebees
06-25-2013, 04:29 PM
I read with interest your last message. How did you get the idea that I use langstroth boxes as Warre hives? I'm not sure where you got that from.
Here's a really interesting thing , that you may not be aware of. I use 8 frame langstroth boxes, (when I need framed gear) as I have trouble lifting the bigger ones when full. The inner dimension of a Warre box (310 mm,), and the width of an 8 frame Lang box,(12") are 4 mm. difference. My next experiment, is to see if I can --blasphemey-- Cut the 4 top edges into a top bar rest so as to use --sacrilage-- BOTH Warre top bars or if I wish, install Langstroth standard frames. 2 boxes would have the approximate volume of 3 & 1/2 Warre boxes. The bars would be installed warmway, but bees don't mind that. This would be a Universal box, and I think Abbe~ Warre would be proud of me!
Please appraise me of your thoughts on this. I will send pictures, after I get one set up. It's first use will be as a swarm lure, as I am trying to get more bees this year. I know You'll LOVE it!
P.S. Try to keep the moderator from spanking me, please. 90% of my hives are Warre hives.