do i need a smoker?

[bnm1000]

Just starting this year and will be installing a package into a new warre hive? I have a veil, jacket, hive tool and brush. Do I really need a smoker, or can I get by with just a hand sprayer when working with my warre?

[hpm08161947]

There will come a time when you wished you had one. No flow... nothing for the bees to do but hang around and bee grumpy, and you have some serious manipulation to do.....

[quevernick]

Smokers are cheap enough and unless I've missed something there arent really any downsides to using one. Well some people have a problem keeping it lit but I've never really had an issue.

[vegasvalet]

During my first year I very rarely used a smoker but there were times when I was VERY glad I had it. Get a smoker, it's a good insurance policy to have....

[Jim 134]

Just starting this year and will be installing a package into a new warre hive? I have a veil, jacket, hive tool and brush. Do I really need a smoker, or can I get by with just a hand sprayer when working with my warre?


Not if you like running a lot


BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[REN]

Buy a smoker. It is a small investment and if you're serious about keeping bees, you'll need it.

[Riverratbees]

It will pay for itself the 1st day they are in a bad mood.

[robherc]

Invest in a decent smoker, or in an EXCELLENT veil+suit. I opted for the veil+suit myself, but I also threw together a "tin-can smoker" to use whenever my nerves start getting the better of me & it's time to calm down some bees during a cut-out ;)

[Beagler]

It's actually better for the bees even if they are very gentle. The smoke will go away and the bees can return to normal sooner than the alarm pheremone will leave the hive.

[SteveBee]

You don't NEED a smoker. You WANT a smoker.

[bwdenen]

You don't NEED a smoker. You WANT a smoker.

Couldn't have said it better. I have made the mistake...once, of not using my smoker. It's the only time I had to run away from the hive. They chased me all the way around to the front of my house, over 250 feet and AROUND it. IMHO, get a smoker.

[Michael Bush]

As much as I like a smoker (and you should have one) I don't use them for package installs. The bees need to smell the pheromones to get organized and they are basically a swarm with nothing to defend.

[Slow Modem]

Not if you like running a lot

I don't run, but I can walk very smartly!

[robherc]

I did a MASSIVE cut-out last night; forgot my smoker in the garage on my way out... Turned out to be a MEAN hive, AND the biggest feral hive I've ever seen! My wife and I are both VERY sore now; should've brought the dang smoker!

[Oldtimer]

Don't get one. It's much better to let the bees get worked up angry and upset when you open the hive, boil up all over everything so you end up crushing lots of them to death, and get the crap stung out of you.

That's unless it's a good day, but not every day is a good day.

I have seen the "I never use a smoker it's so much better for the bees" type statements, although I've never had it explained why this is better for the bees. It's also noticeable that these statements usually come from someone with very little practicle experience, and for obvious reasons. Once they have experienced a smoker they discover how much better it is for the bees.

Just, as has been said, don't use a smoker when installing a package or a swarm. The rest of the time, use one.

[amethysta]

When I first started, I had read that you don't need a smoker. That philosophy ended quickly after my first inspection.

[bnm1000]

Great - Thanks everyone. I will get one. Probably won't use it for the install, but will make sure I will practice with it before the bees arrive!

[Oldtimer]

Straight up, the "I don't use a smoker" thing started happening a few years ago after a film came out, it was a cartoon about a beehive, and the beekeeper was this big evil guy with a smoker, who took their honey. Can't remember what the film was called maybe someone can.

Anyway that's where this no smoker stuff came from, a cartoon. Combine that with little experience, and new age philosophies, and you get smoker = bad.

[Rader Sidetrack]

it was a cartoon about a beehive, and the beekeeper was this big evil guy with a smoker, who took their honey.

It sounds like you may be referring to "Bee Movie":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_Movie

[Grant]

I started out back in 1981 with the advice that "smoke only made the bees madder." I had a heavy suit that was hotter than an oven. I had a pair of welding gloves and after opening a hive, the bees kept flying at me pinging my veil and swirling around my entire body. I had to walk around in that hot suit for about fifteen minutes until they finally left me alone.

Despite this advice coming from a respected mentor, I quietly purchased a smoker and have never regretted it. I've also not forgiven this mentor who has long since died.

Yes, get a smoker.

And as an aside, I had a call from someone who wanted to get a top bar hive. When I asked why they wanted a top bar hive, they responded, "Because I was told you don't have to use smoke."

I gently suggested they get a smoker. I didn't even want to know who filled their heads with such nonsense.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[Bush_84]

I started out back in 1981 with the advice that "smoke only made the bees madder." I had a heavy suit that was hotter than an oven. I had a pair of welding gloves and after opening a hive, the bees kept flying at me pinging my veil and swirling around my entire body. I had to walk around in that hot suit for about fifteen minutes until they finally left me alone.

Despite this advice coming from a respected mentor, I quietly purchased a smoker and have never regretted it. I've also not forgiven this mentor who has long since died.

Yes, get a smoker.

And as an aside, I had a call from someone who wanted to get a top bar hive. When I asked why they wanted a top bar hive, they responded, "Because I was told you don't have to use smoke."

I gently suggested they get a smoker. I didn't even want to know who filled their heads with such nonsense.

Grant
Jackson, MO

I have a smoker, but don't often use it. Most times in my Warre and TBHs the bees don't even notice that I'm there. I occasionally get a bee giving me a head butt. Can't say that it's a reflection of the hive or the bees.

One nice thing about TBHs is that you can inspect them with little interference to the hive, especially if you aren't doing a complete brood inspection. This is mostly due to the fact that you can leave their roof mostly intact. Inspect one bar and slide it over to the other bar and so on. So at any given time you only have so much exposed. In Vertical hives (both Lang and Warre) you lift the cover off and everybody is exposed. This is made worse if you remove a box. Everybody can be airborne in little time.

[Solomon Parker]

OP: Yes.

Or, learn your lesson the hard way and buy one later. Your choice.

[Zonker]

If you're really against smoke, I saw a video where a guy used sugar water spray instead of a smoker. He did a cut out job and it seemed to work fine.

[Merlinspop]

I only have a single TBH, and as Bush84 said, often there's no need for a smoker as they don't get very agitated when manipulated. BUT, if there's something 'not right' in the hive, such as being in the middle of superceding the queen, or whatever, they WILL be grumpy. So having a smoker lit and handy can be a VERY good thing, even for a TBH keeper. A few puffs when you first notice that they're not in a good mood will allow you the time to (hopefully) figure out why and start to come up with a plan to make them right. If you're forced to close up and run, I've learned the hard way that problems rarely solve themselves.

[guyross]

Saturday I went on my first swarm call. Not planning to use smoke a child spoke up "Are you not going to gas them?" I lit my smoker for her and explained to her and the adults present the reason we use smoke and the effect it has on bees. Yes get a smoker the people expect it. We went in our nearly month old packages yesterday with no smoke. Only a veil and gloves and could have probably not used them. As mentioned in previous replies they get mean during a dearth and if queenless.

[Ben Brewcat]

The whole smoker-Taliban thing is really overblown; I hear it a lot here in Granola County. "Would you fill YOUR house with smoke?", "Langtrough [sic] is how people keep bees as slaves", etc etc. Don't overuse it and smoke can be a colony's and a beekeeper's best friend. Be sure to 1) give the smoke time to work, 2) don't use plastics/treated materials in it, and 3) use just enough to settle them down or the occasional gentle puff to herd them along/clear the bars.

[Oldtimer]

Ben over the last few days I've read a few excerpts from "The Barefoot Beekeeper" and discovered some of those ideas have been propogated in this book. For example he says not to use smoke which upsets the bees because they think there is a fire and have to go and gorge themselves on honey, but rather, gently spray them with water, which they think is a gentle, life giving rain, so they cluster quietly.

I did have to wonder why rain inside the hive would not also be upsetting for the bees. Oh well. :rolleyes:

By the way just so I don't lead anyone astray, there is an old wives tale that smoking bees calms them because there is a fire so they think they have to leave the hive so rush of and load up with honey, after which they are too full to be aggressive. It's not actually true, the effect of smoke is instantly calming, the bees do not have to take the time to go gorge themselves on honey before it works.

So how is smoke calming to bees? I don't think anybody absolutely knows the answer to that. But a likely theory is that when a hive becomes aggressive they release alarm pheremones. The smoke temporarily blocks these out, the bees think there is no problem.

[pascopol]

If you think you do not need the smoker, you probably don't.
Then you are smarter and you know something 100000000's of beekeepers in last 10000's years did not know.
I have no problem with that.

[robherc]

So how is smoke calming to bees? I don't think anybody absolutely knows the answer to that. But a likely theory is that when a hive becomes aggressive they release alarm pheremones. The smoke temporarily blocks these out, the bees think there is no problem.
I know this could be slightly off-topic/tangental, but I think it applies to the OP's intent...
If I had to hazard a guess on the "how is smoking calming" thing, I think I'd guess that maybe 30% is alarm pheromone blocking by the smoke itself, and 70% would come from the CO2 in the smoke, as we already know that CO2 is a useful anesthetic for bees & other insects (even used for anesthetizing queens during artificial insemination), and since CO2 is a primary product of combustion, I'm guessing it's more responsible for the bees' "calming down" immediately after being smoked than many of us realize.

That said, I have no evidence (yet) that directly supports my theory...but I do definitely intend to find a way to rig up a "CO2 smoker" to have a side-by-side comparison test on my hives. See how effective the CO2 is without the rest of the stuff in the smoke. (Like I said in another post, I'm a hopeless meddler)

[RiodeLobo]

.but I do definitely intend to find a way to rig up a "CO2 smoker" to have a side-by-side comparison test on my hives. See how effective the CO2 is without the rest of the stuff in the smoke. (Like I said in another post, I'm a hopeless meddler)

:ot: But here is my idea on how to do that. Dry Ice in a conventional smoker and voilà a non-combustion CO2 "smoker".

And yes you should have a smoker. I would prefer to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Don't needlessly make your life harder.

[Oldtimer]

Robherc, that would be an interesting experiment, and would not be too hard to do long as you knew someone with Co2 you could borrow.

I have my doubts about if it will work, because I cannot see enough Co2 concentration being caused by a smoker, for long enough, to have an aneasthetic effect. However it would be interesting to try and please report back if you do this.

[robherc]

Dry Ice in a conventional smoker and voilà a non-combustion CO2 "smoker".
Hmmm, don't think that would put out enough CO2...I'm currently trying to find my old "micro torch" that used little butane cartridges with identical dimensions to the common "BB gun" CO2 cartridges...failing that, I may have to actually PAY for something to do this experiment with. :p
Either way, I'm thinking the compressed CO2 is the way to do it...just have to be sure not to freeze any bees with it....details, details.

[kjbann]

Hmmm, don't think that would put out enough CO2...I'm currently trying to find my old "micro torch" that used little butane cartridges with identical dimensions to the common "BB gun" CO2 cartridges...failing that, I may have to actually PAY for something to do this experiment with. :p
Either way, I'm thinking the compressed CO2 is the way to do it...just have to be sure not to freeze any bees with it....details, details.

Interesting. I always guessed it was the CO2 that would turn the bees into crazed warriors if I happened to breathe on them. Must've been something I ate (or drank) :scratch:
Ken

[sammyjay]

I don't think you would absolutely need one, but I would get one if I were you. There's lots of times I inspect and I doubt spraying them would stop them.


Nathan

[BuzzyBuzz]

Here is Phil Chandler using powdered sugar as an alternative to a smoker http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00dczts

[Oldtimer]

Video wouldn't work for me but I did see the still shot of his powder blowing machine.

Just wondering, what is more natural about using that machine to blow powdered sugar all over them, than using a smoker?

Also, that top bar hive in the pic, is very weak. If there was a langstroth hive that weak in bees, you likely wouldn't need a smoker either.

Kinda wondering if to Phil, everything anybody has done in the past is wrong, he just has to do something different, just for the sake of it. There is no way I would bother setting up that machine and blowing powder all over my bees.

[BuzzyBuzz]

I hear what you say Oldtimer about blowing powder vs smoke - and it can always go back to the basic debate - as soon as humans start keeping bees, in truth it's domestication anyway.

[Oldtimer]

Checked your web site Amanda, Wow! What an amazing site. HUGE!

[robherc]

Just wondering, what is more natural about using that machine to blow powdered sugar all over them, than using a smoker?
Also, that top bar hive in the pic, is very weak. If there was a langstroth hive that weak in bees, you likely wouldn't need a smoker either.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't powdered sugar used to irritate the bees into chasing SHB into traps as a treatment for SHB...seems if it irritates 'em enough to chase SHB more than they normally would, it's not something I'd want to try using to PACIFY them before working the hive!

[Rader Sidetrack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't powdered sugar used to irritate the bees into chasing SHB into traps as a treatment for SHB...

Powdered sugar is often used as a treatment for mites, but I haven't seen any credible references that it also is useful against SHB. Here's more info on powdered sugar in mite treatment:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/
(look near the bottom of the page.)

[Peaches]

So how is smoke calming to bees? I don't think anybody absolutely knows the answer to that. But a likely theory is that when a hive becomes aggressive they release alarm pheremones. The smoke temporarily blocks these out, the bees think there is no problem.

Oldtimer, this answer comes from a Dr. of Entomology who is the head of the Master Beekeepers program at the University of Florida.

The nicotine in the smoke coats the antennae of the bees. (The antennae is the same as the noses of other animals. The organ that smells odors.) Without the scents or pheromones to guide the bees, they will become confused and eat.

If you smoke yourself, you hide your scent and the bees will ignore you.

Hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding.

[Oldtimer]

Oh well, thanks to the Dr for helping me with my misunderstanding.

Just, after years of holding a smoker in one hand all day every day, and watching it's effect on bees, I have observed the effect is instant and they do not have to rush off and eat before it will work.

Maybe cos unlike the Dr I don't use material that contains nicotine, I just rely on normal smoke.

But hey. I'm just a humble beekeeper. Not a Doctor. ;)

[Peaches]

Oldtimer, I didn't say that they eat immediately. But they do within seconds of the smoke. When you smoke them off the top of the frames look at them when you pull a frame. Are some of them with their heads in the cells? I assume that they are eating. I could be wrong.

Sorry if I made you upset. I didn't mean to. I've only been a beekeeper for about 15 yrs myself, so I am still learning too.

[Oldtimer]

No worries Peaches, not upset at all, more bewildered how this old wives tale continues, despite what can be plainly seen any time we work a hive. Sorry I made a joke of it.

Sure, bees can sometimes be seen with their heads in a cell when we're in a hive. What about the others? Do we have to wait for them to do the same before smoke will have any effect? Obviously, no, we see smoke work much faster than that. But anyhow, at the end of the day, the "smoke works because the bees all go and gorge themselves silly till they can't sting" idea, is an appealing little story, if somebody wants to believe it, no skin off my nose it's not a major issue.

Also, the Dr may be correct. What you have quoted of him refers to the effect of nicotine on bees antennae, and I don't know anything about that because like most beekeepers I don't use nicotine. I would be interested to see the context of his statement, or at least, the full statement, and see if he was referring to nicotine, or to smoke in general.

[Peaches]

Oldtimer, I don't think I said anything about gorging themselves, but I will try to find the reference that I am using for you.

By the way, I am also enrolled in the 5 year program for Master Beekeeper. I am in the last year and half. I have reached Master and am working on Master Craftsman, the final level. I still have a lot to learn. And I feel that I can learn much from you, too.

[hpm08161947]

Oldtimer, I didn't say that they eat immediately. But they do within seconds of the smoke. When you smoke them off the top of the frames look at them when you pull a frame. Are some of them with their heads in the cells? I assume that they are eating. I could be wrong.

.

I thought this notion that bees eat when smoked had pretty well been discounted. I can't cite any research to back me up, but suspect there must be some. Certainly they stick their heads in cells... but are they eating? I think not.... but I've been wrong before. :)

[Peaches]

Herb,

Why else would they have their heads in honey cells. I have found very few with their heads in pollen cells or empty cells. The nurse bees still feed the babies or at least are checking on then during the smoking time.

Like you, I could be wrong as I don't know everything about bees. I have an email into Dr. Jamie Ellis of the Entomology Dept of University of Florida, Gainesville, FL. When I get some information from him, I'll post so all can see that I am right or wrong in my assumption. That still may not vindicate me among some of the more experienced beekeepers.

[Oldtimer]

Here's a pic I took to show a queen cell being introduced. However for our purposes it's just a typical shot of a comb of bees, taken less than a minute after the hive was opened. The bees have been smoked and are calm. Only a tiny proportion of them, if any, have eaten any honey. That all bees can eat honey within seconds of the hive being opened is an impossibility. Often, a few do. Enough to explain how smoke works? No.

What the Dr really meant could be answered by giving his whole quote, and context, rather than just a snippet of it referring to nicotine rather than smoke in general.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/waspwing/queen%20breeding/20celloncomb.jpg

[Peaches]

Next question, those who are apparently eating, are they guard/foragers or nurse bees? My experience is the nurse bees cannot sting as their stingers haven't stiffened up yet.

[Oldtimer]

Of the bees that might bury themselves in a cell, no idea which particular ones they are, sorry.

But re nurse bees and stinging, nurse bees are physically quite capable of stinging, although they are less inclined to.

[Peaches]

Oldtimer,

Dr. Jamie Ellis sent me an email so here it is.

Hey Peaches,

Good to hear from you. Hope you are doing well.

The answer is that smoke "masks" the alarm pheromone. It's like trying to smell a flower in a room where people just cooked bacon. The bacon smell masks the flower smell. When bees get mad, they produce alarm pheromone. The smoke "clouds" this smell, making it harder for bees to detect the alarm pheromone.

This is how we think it works....

Hope this helps!

Jamie

Jamie Ellis, PhD
Assistant Professor of Entomology
Honey Bee Research and Extension Laboratory
Department of Entomology and Nematology
University of Florida
Bldg 970 Natural Area Drive
PO Box 110620
Gainesville, FL 32611-0620
Phone: (352) 273 3924
Fax: (352) 392 0190
Email: jdellis@ufl.edu
http://www.UFhoneybee.com
http://www.AFBEE.com

[Oldtimer]

Thanks Peaches, looks like he's saying the same thing I've been saying for years.



But a likely theory is that when a hive becomes aggressive they release alarm pheremones. The smoke temporarily blocks these out, the bees think there is no problem.

Good to see the "makes them eat honey" thing put to bed. Did the Dr actually say that?

[HiveAtYourHome]

Just starting this year and will be installing a package into a new warre hive? I have a veil, jacket, hive tool and brush. Do I really need a smoker, or can I get by with just a hand sprayer when working with my warre?

I'm not sure if the original question was really answered or not as bnm1000 was asking "can I get by with just a hand sprayer when working with my warre?" not just do you need a smoker. Although I use a smoker, I'm wondering if the poster uses liquid smoke in the hand sprayer? Or essential oils/sugar/water? I think the effectiveness is in that order with smoker being on top. If the poster has a sprayer and liquid smoke and this is a WARRE hive, manipulated under Warre conditions (minimally) then it isn't whether most beekeepers should have a smoker, but should someone with a one hive that they work with a minimal Warre approach, but don't usually ever totally open get a smoker over the liquid smoke. That liquid smoke takes longer to do the same thing the smoker will do and the effect isn't as long, but it seems to do the same thing. I think a smoker is cool and the fuel is free for me versus buying liquid smoke. But to hive a package you don't use any smoke. To simply nadir and grab the honey off the top and leave the bees alone isn't much so for them I'm casting a dissenting opinion. The liquid smoke spray bottle would be fine. (If poster is using Sugar water, or honeybeehealthyin in that spray bottle, as they are asking and not hardcore decided against smoke, then I'd say the spray bottle is NOT adequate for ALL jobs (even if for some i.e. hiving the bees spray is better than the smoker) so then you need to get a smoker or liquid smoke.

[HiveAtYourHome]

Also a smoker might be intimidating (light it, keep it lit) and one more thing when already overwhelmed by things to learn. Liquid smoke works, doesn't go out, and with the posters 1 Warre hive would be a cheaper choice until a break point with a smokers cost at 10+ years. I like real smoke better but probably aesthetics and cost being different for multiple hives, and you can run out of liquid smoke. Here in the north east if I run out of the fuel I use I just look around my feet, almost everything burns. I also like that real smoke works faster and lasts longer (so for shorter jobs won't need to reapply.) So although I like a smoker I believe that there are multiple valid solutions as people are working under different scenarios. Liquid smoke offers a fine alternative that works and might be a better choice for the poster even though I prefer a smoker.

[robherc]

Actually, in a reversal of my previous stance :eek:, I have started not using smoke on my bees, at all... I just spray 'em all with a mist of syrup with a few drops of LGO & spearmint oil per gallon...the foragers & guard bees are usually the first to get misted, so it usually works great; no alarm pheromone (unless I inadvertently squish someone), and very little flying as the ones whose wings AREN'T sticky seem to be perfectly happy to lick the ones who are "covered in yummy". I've done total hive transfers on my TBH hives...bar-by-bar, complete with having to trim a couple combs to fit the new box, using only the syrup. One warning though, if you take too long, and don't reapply syrup as they get each other cleaned up, you may have a LOT more bees "flight-worthy" than you bargained for...usually right about the time you drop something! :eek: (happened to me yesterday....you know what 40,000 REALLY mad bees sounds like? lol )

[Zonker]

I even heard that using the right materials (mestique, which I can't spell or tobacco) you can kill mites with the smoke while you're in the hive.

[buzz abbott]

It occurred to me the other day that if one were to smoke a pipe or cigar while inspecting one might not need a smoker. A friend I mentioned this to wondered about the toxicity of tobacco to the bees. thoughts?

[Michael Bush]

Nicotine is an insecticide. But it takes higher levels than you can produce by smoking... now if you put a lot of it in your smoker and really pour it on, you can kill them...

[Boone]

I'd use one.

[robherc]

Actually, in a reversal of my previous stance :eek:, I have started not using smoke on my bees, at all...
Yeah, right after I posted that one of my hives (a feral swarm, captured in HEAVY AHB territory) decided to play "demons with wings" with me during a hive inspection...will definitely be smoking them next time I go in, thanks for makin' a liar out of me, girls! :lookout:

[Beeophyte]

Going back to OP. I only put an quick puff of smoke at the entrance and across the top of the frames or top bars (depending on which hive). I smoke my hands A LOT! For me the smoker is mostly for the beekeeper not the bees.

[pips]

We have been happily using a smoker with our bees for the past year (our first as beekeepers), but a rather unique set of events have forced us to consider not one.

We have an opportunity to move our bees to a nearby rooftop farm here in East Vancouver. The problem is it is a wood structure with a tar and gravel roof and the insurer (having seen some of the wonderful stories and pictures posted of mis-shaps involving smokers) is not willing to provide insurance unless we let promise to leave this item on the ground. Hard to blame him, really.

So two questions:

1. Is there any alternative to a smoker - besides occasionally running in fear??
2. Is there any such thing a non-combustible smoker? I am laughing at myself as I write this - best oxymoron ever!!

I feel I already no the answer to these questions (no and no), but knowing for certain would be a big help!

Thanks much!

Bryce
Projects In Place Society


I started out back in 1981 with the advice that "smoke only made the bees madder." I had a heavy suit that was hotter than an oven. I had a pair of welding gloves and after opening a hive, the bees kept flying at me pinging my veil and swirling around my entire body. I had to walk around in that hot suit for about fifteen minutes until they finally left me alone.

Despite this advice coming from a respected mentor, I quietly purchased a smoker and have never regretted it. I've also not forgiven this mentor who has long since died.

Yes, get a smoker.

And as an aside, I had a call from someone who wanted to get a top bar hive. When I asked why they wanted a top bar hive, they responded, "Because I was told you don't have to use smoke."

I gently suggested they get a smoker. I didn't even want to know who filled their heads with such nonsense.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[Rader Sidetrack]

> Is there any such thing a non-combustible smoker?

Depends on the insurer's perspective. Try this out on them :

http://www.beezsmoker.com/

http://www.beezsmoker.com/images/button_products.png

Yes, it uses a rechargable battery to heat an element.

[Oldtimer]

Is there a product in the US called liquid smoke, or similar, that does not burn?

[cg3]

Sure.

[pips]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Much appreciated.

There were some comments that the liquid smoke affects the color of the honey and can even be hazardous to human health. Is anyone aware if this is the case?

Thanks again for all help.

Bryce

[KPeacock]

i don't know about it's effects on honey, but liquid smoke is a food additive that folks consume all the time and they don't seem to be dying at any alarming rate.