Help, Please: Alternative foundation, already a mistake?

[LadyBuzz]

Just installed 2 pkgs. of Italians about 1 week ago. I put the can of syrup feed on top of the frames of the lowest hive body & put an empty hive frame over it, to hopefully prevent robbing...then just put the telescoping lid on for the first week...thought they would just go down into the frames & start building...
Had seen somewhere that just putting a strip of foundation at the top of the frame would be enough to help the bees get started...so, I tried using half in all the new frames.
Quickly checked the two hives today. One looked fine. The other: The bees had started building combs from the inside surface of the telescoping lid! Ooops! :s Thought about just putting them into a box & setting it in front of the hive entrance, but then what if Queenie is in there? Put the lid on quickly, but saw a little honey in the comb.
Anyone else experienced with just using short strips of foundation?
Any suggestions for getting the bees to start down on the foundation in the frames without losing Queenie? (She's not marked & my eyesight's not the greatest.)
Anyone experienced with this? Thanks for help!
:scratch:

[Oldtimer]

It's just they initially decided to cluster there, and then started building comb.

Best plan would be make a hive mat from a piece of board, any old board will do, and cut a hole in the middle to fit the feeder can.

Take the telescoping lid off the hive, and carefully remove each piece of burr comb and shake the bees into the box, so they will land on top of the frames in the bottom box. This may be a bit messy. Toss the combs on the ground in front of the hive. Smoke the bees a little then lift the top, empty box and give it a good downwards bang to dislodge any bees hanging onto the sides, and take the top box off.
Put the hive mat you have made on top of the bottom box, put the top box back on, the feeder tin over the hole in the board, and replace the now comb free lid. The bees should start over in the bottom box.

The combs you have removed may seem a waste, but this will actually be easier and tidyer long term, than trying to save them. They may be melted down if you want to save the beeswax. The sooner you can do this the better, before there is too much brood in the combs you will remove.

[Michael Bush]

Bees never have any interest in your frames or your foundation unless there is absolutely no where else to build their own comb. NEVER give them space to build their own comb unless it's in your foundationless frames.

You can cut the combs and tie them into frames (after you remove the foundation from them). Rubber bands or string work.

[Oldtimer]

That would be with small cell foundation?

[Apiator]

Bees never have any interest in your frames or your foundation unless there is absolutely no where else to build their own comb. NEVER give them space to build their own comb unless it's in your foundationless frames.



Okay... this is sorta what I was going to ask. All of my new hived packages appear to be building down from the covers. I have a mix of foundations and foundationless... all with an extra box on top to hold ziploc feeders. How do you deal with needing the extra space for feed, vs getting them to build down on the frames in the bottom box?

[WI-beek]

Bees in the wild or nature or whatever you want to call it start nests in open cavities. They have no idea what you have planed. They want to start building comb on the top of the cavity you provide and you can not leave an open box on top of frames ever or they will just start building the comb from the lid. Usually if you are going to feed from a can, bucket or a jar you put it over the inner cover hole so they have access to the syrup but not to the inside of the box. If you dont have a inner cover with a hole in it then you have to improvise like OldTimer said and make some sort of divison board between the boxes. Cardboard or even some plastic sheeting would work but you have to make sure there is not one single spot the bees can get past it or they may still start comb from the inside of the top cover.

A better idea in my eyes being that you will most likely feed this way again is to iether get a inner cover with a hole in it or make a feeding division board. I like to take a piece of plywood and cut a round hole in it that is a little smaller than the jar lid. I then take a piece of screen and fasten it over the hole so the bess cant get past it when I take the jar off. You put the jar over the hole and screen and the bees access they syrup from the jar through the screen. When you need to refill the jar or place another jar there you dont have to worry about bees getting into your box that encloses the jar or crushing bees that get in the way of jar.

Sorry I dont have any pics of this set up. It works very well. You can make the feeding board so you can set multiple jars on at a time. I have ones set up for 5 one gallon jars for fall feeding. They cost me about a dollar or two to make and the jars I get from the pickles I feed to my kid.

[Michael Bush]

Never put extra space on a hive during a comb building time of the year. Never. Not to feed. Not to release a package. Not to put on pollen patties. You can get away with it in the fall or winter because it's not the time of year for building comb.

[Beeman410]

I use hive top feeders (http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Plastic-10-Frame-Hive-Top-Feeders/productinfo/423/).

I do have one hive that i just hived a swarm in thats got open frames and im using a baggie feeder.. i put a shallow 3" super on top of the hive to seal it...
before i put the baggie feeder on I let the bees settle in for a couple days so they start the comb on the frames.
Seems to be working out well :)

[LadyBuzz]

Many thanks for all of your great help! I have screen tops instead of boards, maybe I can put the feeder can on top of the screen & they can feed through that??
Baggie feeder? Is is just a Baggie with a few small holes?
Oldtimer: Your detailed answer is extremely helpful! Today is threatening a thunderstorm, so will do that the very first chance, asap! Thank you very kindly!

[Joseph Clemens]

The bees are not likely to be able to access feed from a feeder, through a screen - they need to be able to have direct contact with the feed in order to obtain it.

[Oldtimer]

before i put the baggie feeder on I let the bees settle in for a couple days so they start the comb on the frames.
Seems to be working out well :)Another good plan.

[LadyBuzz]

I think that's the idea, to let the bees build the foundation...and suppposed to be less prone to SHB's. Would be great!

[LadyBuzz]

Thanks for helping to prevent further disaster!

[Apiator]

Never put extra space on a hive during a comb building time of the year. Never. Not to feed. Not to release a package. Not to put on pollen patties. You can get away with it in the fall or winter because it's not the time of year for building comb.

Wish I had read *that* sooner... will correct on next trip to bee yard.

My friend and partner in crime on this new venture read "Beekeeping for Dummies." Hence, the aforementioned problem. I wish you would write a book called "Beekeeping for People with Brains who Understand English." :) That would kick donkey.

[WI-beek]

"The bees are not likely to be able to access feed from a feeder, through a screen - they need to be able to have direct contact with the feed in order to obtain it."

I was worried about that myself after reading about using screen to keep bees out but I have had no problems. I use 1/8 inch hardware screen and make sure my holes on jar lids are a bit scattered about and are not in a strait line so they cant all end up right over a wire.

[Michael Bush]

I feed with jars through 1/8" (#8) hardware cloth all the time. I'm pretty sure it will not work through screen door screen.

[Apiator]

I feed with jars through 1/8" (#8) hardware cloth all the time. I'm pretty sure it will not work through screen door screen.

Could one make up something like that as a flat piece, like a standard inner cover? And set feeders on it? As in, between a bottom box with frames, and an empty super to hold the feeders.

What about the 'fill with newspaper' trick? I've read it; not read anything on actual experience with it.

[Michael Bush]

>Could one make up something like that as a flat piece, like a standard inner cover?

I cut holes in my inner covers to fit a canning jar lid and screen it with #8 (when I had inner covers I did...)

>What about the 'fill with newspaper' trick?

They can and will chew up newspaper very quickly. Some rags would be harder for them to chew up. I would make sure no bees can get there instead.

[LadyBuzz]

Thanks so much, you all are so very helpful!