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MikeJ
06-04-2010, 10:51 AM
I am just reading over a book that got me thinking.
Many have said on the forum (unless I am mistaken, and did not understand their statements) that bees can't hear but they do sense vibration well.

Why do queens pipe?
Why do any of the bees make noise?
The book says they can hear, but the scientific community had been looking at it wrong and did not realize their mistake.

No I won't say it. You know already what I would say.
The weak things of the world :)

Mike

devdog108
06-04-2010, 11:08 AM
I think its the difference in intensity and vibrations......from the books i have read...

Interesting reading....

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n20_v135/ai_7644843/

devdog108
06-04-2010, 11:22 AM
Well, here is another that says they can...

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/bee_dance_2.htm

MikeJ
06-04-2010, 11:41 AM
I would imagine by now there would be a lot of articles stating they can.
My point was (just re-read my post). I wasn't trying to bring out some brand new information, but point out that a lot of people, including me, had done exactly as I was talking about before. Accepting what they said without thinking.

Mike

DRUR
06-04-2010, 11:44 AM
I remember when I was about 6-7 years old my uncle settling a swarm by banging a metal pot with a piece of metal. They immediately settled on a fence posts. His explanation was that they can't hear the queen so they settle on the closest object.

But my whole family claims that I can't hear, but in my world I can:lpf:

rweakley
06-04-2010, 12:07 PM
So bottom line this for me. Should I continue to talk to the girls because they can hear me, or am I wasting my breath. :banana:

devdog108
06-04-2010, 12:16 PM
Oh i know Mike.....thats what makes this fun.........you MUST NOT be a Master Beekeeper....:lookout::lookout::lpf::lpf:

You do of course realize that i COULD NOT resist.....

devdog108
06-04-2010, 12:18 PM
Hey Drur, I watched my grandad do the same thing in downtown chattanooga in 1982. I was only 7, but man, i remember. They had swarmed on a streetlamp. He drummed and they came down to a hive he had placed at the base...never did ask why...

sebee
06-04-2010, 12:36 PM
Should I continue to talk to the girls because they can hear me, or am I wasting my breath. :banana:

Even if they can hear you, that doesnt mean they are listening. :)

If you enjoy talking to them, then why stop?

devdog108
06-04-2010, 12:39 PM
I assure you they do not listen....i keep telling her i am her friend...then she stings me anyway...same goes for my bees too...

plaztikjezuz
06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
news reports about "killer bees" always saw they can be set off by loud noises like a weed whip or lawn mower.

i have read that bees cannot hear, and, newscasters are not always correct. but then we once thought the earth was flat and the sun went around the earth.

MikeJ
06-04-2010, 05:01 PM
Master beekeeper? I can't even find my hive tool.

It (the sound topic) struck me because I knew the queen's piped. I had thought I heard other bees make noises too. But I never stopped to think they have a reason - and if they couldn't hear there would be no reason. I had just gone on what the books and the sxxxxxxxxs (people don't like me using that word) told us. It is almost imbred to not question them.

Mike

sqkcrk
06-04-2010, 05:08 PM
Bees can't hear? Just because they don't have ears like us or sound sensing organs like frogs? And bees don't talk, either? Just because they don't make sounds that sound like werds?

People who are hearing impaired make sounds too. But that doesn't mean that they can hear, does it?

Define hearing.

MikeJ
06-04-2010, 05:48 PM
I am not the one who said this (though I might have in other threads). I am repeating what the scientific (sorry have to say it sometimes) community had been saying, and what is still repeated a lot.

I have no intention of going scientific - lingo either.
Very simple - common sense - hearing is the ability to perceive sounds (however you prefer to define sound).

Your examples aren't comparable. Humans do have the ability to hear. A deaf person is a human that for some reason does not have that ability. Doesn't change anything. I can see that the "scientific" method is flawed. And it makes it worse because it has become so strongly taught that it can't be seen by those who use it.

Mike

MeriB
06-04-2010, 07:02 PM
Just a thought but speach, noise, ect does cause vibration or waves which may be what they sense, It does not matter if they can hear, I can and that buzz:lookout::lookout: warns me to be careful. And yes, I DO talk to my bees. It helps me stay calm and focused!

sqkcrk
06-04-2010, 07:34 PM
A deaf person is a human that for some reason does not have that ability.

Mike

And yet they make sounds. As do honey bees. The making of sounds or noises doesn't mean that those making them can hear them or that even if they can hear them that those sounds mean anything to those who are making them and those that are hearing them. It doesn't even necesarily mean that these sounds are being made for a reason. They could just be by products of movement. Like buzzing when a bee flys or the pop sound when a drone mates.

heaflaw
06-04-2010, 08:52 PM
Drur & Devdog: I remember my father and aunts & uncles banging pots to make swarms light on a low branch of trees. As I got educated, I wrote that off to an old unscientific way of doing things. But now that I have gotten wiser, I believe there must be something to it. Especially since it had been done in Tennesse & Texas and not just Lincolnton, NC.

EastSideBuzz
06-04-2010, 11:38 PM
When you are running like a little girl away from the hive screaming because they are stinging you they are hearing you and laughing. :lookout::applause:

Michael Bush
06-05-2010, 04:07 AM
Bees dance in the dark. How do the "watchers" know where to find the honey? Do they see the dancer? No. Do they feel the dancer? Yes. What is the difference between very fine ability to detect vibration and "hearing"? It depends on your definition of "hearing".

sqkcrk
06-05-2010, 04:36 AM
Drur & Devdog: I remember my father and aunts & uncles banging pots to make swarms light on a low branch of trees. As I got educated, I wrote that off to an old unscientific way of doing things. But now that I have gotten wiser, I believe there must be something to it. Especially since it had been done in Tennesse & Texas and not just Lincolnton, NC.

Cause and effect? Or, if they had simply followed the swarms they would have found the same result and we would now say that following a swarm makes it come down.

Mike Gillmore
06-05-2010, 05:05 AM
What is the difference between very fine ability to detect vibration and "hearing"?


You hit the nail on the head. Our "brain" hears vibration and sound waves via the eardrum. It seems feasible to me that a bee's brain could hear sound via vibration to the antennae or some other external sensory organ.

Even deaf humans can detect vibration through their skin. They know when a door slams, when someone is walking across the hardwood floor, when the kids are jumping up and down in the living room. If those senses were further developed they would be able to sense much more defined "sound" through the skin.

sqkcrk
06-05-2010, 05:33 AM
Could be, could be, but aren't the antennae odor detectors? I'm not certain.

devdog108
06-05-2010, 06:02 AM
Go back and read the link I put in. the difference between the human ability to hear and the HB is the sound oscillation waves....according to them. I normally fall asleep reading stuff like that, but that was pretty interesting. It is the 2nd link btw....oh and it addresses the antannae as well....

Michael Bush
06-05-2010, 07:52 AM
Have you ever watched bees when the queen pipes? They all freeze like that game we played when we were kids... obviously, they "hear" it.

dickm
06-05-2010, 08:21 AM
Mike said it.

>>>>You hit the nail on the head. Our "brain" hears vibration and sound waves via the eardrum. It seems feasible to me that a bee's brain could hear sound via vibration to the antennae or some other external sensory organ.<<<<

Another nail hit on the head.
The second segment of the antenna contains something called a Johnston's organ. It senses sound and other things like flight speed. Similar sensors in the legs sense vibration there. "Wisdom of the hive," Seeley, page 27. Thete's more in the book. This scratches the surface, I suspect.

dickm

BeeCurious
06-05-2010, 08:22 AM
To me, the description found at the following link is very close to "hearing":

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.137 1%2Fjournal.pone.0000234

dickm
06-05-2010, 09:47 AM
Good post Bee...
Wish I had done that. I actually had to pick up a book :( . It's overwhelming what one can find on the internet. It's human arrogance that implies that this is not "hearing." Sound is vibration of air. The eardrum develops a sympathetic vibration and that transfers the signal from vibration to nerve impulse. What limits hearing to eardrums? With sensitive hairs all over it's body, it wouldn't be surprising if they one-day discover that a bee hears with it's entire body.

dickm

dickm
06-05-2010, 09:51 AM
Mike said:

>>>>>Have you ever watched bees when the queen pipes? They freeze!<<<<

Mark Winston says that they freeze when a tuning fork is placed against an OB hive.

dickm

beekeeper1756
06-05-2010, 02:36 PM
Well I will tell you this. I was preparing to do a cutout this morning in the wee early hours and nothing was flying inside the shed. They were above the boards in the ceiling. I pulled on a roll of duct tape and it made that sound, you know the one and immediately the entire hive above me began to buzz. I scooted out of the shed pronto.

mac
06-05-2010, 04:25 PM
Right so a friend of mine told me about in the old days of banging on a pan. I made a split by removing the queen with half the hive cause they had started a bunch of swarm cells. The hive with the Q cells started to swarm so I thought what the heck. Bang, bang, bang, you get the picture. I guess the queen never left cause they all returned to the hive. About an hour later it started again. Bang, bang, bang. I saw the queen attempt to leave the hive and she fell on the ground right in front of the hive. Scooped her up and put her in a new hive Added bees etc. Next day it swarmed again. They were all up in the air headed for the woods. Bang, bang, bang. 5 minutes and they landed on a pine bough 6inches off the ground. I’m just saying. ☺

MikeJ
06-05-2010, 06:38 PM
It almost makes me think the obvious is being overlooked on purpose.


And yet they make sounds. As do honey bees...

You took everything out and left one little segment that meant nothing without the rest. Deaf humans are humans. All humans have the created ability to hear. If one loses that ability it does not mean the entire human race can't hear. They were created hearing, by some problem some can't - it isn't the normal.



Bees dance in the dark. How do the "watchers" know where to find the honey? Do they see the dancer? No...

Missing the point. People can do things without seeing. Does not mean they weren'tcreated seeing. The bees use sight - if not in the hive then outside it (who has proven the bees can't see somehow in the dark anyway?).

The point of the thread was that the scientific community decided that bees could not hear and many people took this up without question. We know that was wrong.
These arguments being put forward show me even more how the methods used are faulty.

Mike

valleyman
06-05-2010, 07:22 PM
I don't know whether bees hear or feel vibration. But I know that they can talk. Loudly.

When they get vibrated or talked to and don't like it, they will tell you to get going and leave them alone, LOUD AND CLEAR:lookout:

dickm
06-06-2010, 06:20 PM
>>>> The bees use sight - if not in the hive then outside it (who has proven the bees can't see somehow in the dark anyway?)<<<<<

Good point. With 5 eyes, and none of them like our own, it's likely that they do see. It's known that they see ultra-violet and I think, Infra-red. Also sense magnetic fields. These are invisible to us.


>>>>>>The point of the thread was that the scientific community decided that bees could not hear and many people took this up without question. <<<<<<

In actuality the science quoted that they do hear, and how they do it. Did you read that part?

dickm

MikeJ
06-06-2010, 08:21 PM
...In actuality the science quoted that they do hear, and how they do it. Did you read that part?

dickm

Actually, if I may make light of it for a second - they were against it, before they were for it.

It was the scientific community that said they couldn't, then later they decided they could. Again acceptance of fallible men's words without question. The mistakes are somehow dropped as if they didn't happen, and we are then asked to "belive this" now.

Just thought it was interesting. I mean it happens all the time in every aspect. But every once in a while it crystalizes so clear ('they had been looking at it worng'.. I mean what if they have been "looking" at just about everything wrong?) - I just thought I'd share it.

Mike

BeeCurious
06-07-2010, 04:04 AM
Snip
Just thought it was interesting. I mean it happens all the time in every aspect. But every once in a while it crystalizes so clear ('they had been looking at it worng'.. I mean what if they have been "looking" at just about everything wrong?)

It seems that the science has evolved... We can be thankful for that.

sqkcrk
06-07-2010, 05:27 AM
It was the scientific community that said they couldn't, then later they decided they could. Again acceptance of fallible men's words without question. The mistakes are somehow dropped as if they didn't happen, and we are then asked to "belive this" now.
Mike

Those dang scientists. Why do they keep on coming up w/ new knowledge? Why don't they ust stop and w/ can live our lives in myth and superstition>

Acceptance w/out question? Where have you been? What are we doing here, if not questioning? If not demanding more info and insight?

No one dropped the mistakes as if they didn't happen, new knowldge and insight was developed.

No one is saying that you have to believe anything that science has brought forth. But it does seem kinda strange that you are using science and technology to disparage science.

There is plenty of room in this world for science and religious belief. But maybe not in your head? What is your beef? That new thoughts aren't "so set in stone that they will never change", so what is really true? Is that the problem here?

Do you think that in your religious view you have found something that never changes and that that gives you some sort of security? If so, you may be in for a surprise. Who knows?

devdog108
06-07-2010, 07:08 AM
Actually, if I may make light of it for a second - they were against it, before they were for it.
Just thought it was interesting. I mean it happens all the time in every aspect. But every once in a while it crystalizes so clear ('they had been looking at it worng'.. I mean what if they have been "looking" at just about everything wrong?) - I just thought I'd share it.

Mike


Hey Sq.....if you reread what he was saying he was making light of it....I see no beef and I do understand where he is coming from. I am married to a personal trainer, who for some clientel, had to go on very strict diets based on the food pyramid we all grew up on....which is now WRONG we find out...LOL...

The point being that you cannot trust scientific discoveries as truth all the time. I question everything, and much to my wife's anger and disgust, take everything i think I know with a grain of salt. Things change, thats the way it is.....period. Another example is saying the Honeybee was brought here and never a part of the origional lanscape of what we call these United States....until recently, when they found the fossil.....hmmm....this is what makes this interesting....

You can group religeon in it as well and beliefs, but i think that is for the coffee Klatch personally. But just as a side bar, many "christians" forget to read ALL of the scripture and like to pick and choose the pieces that make them feel better.....LOLOL.....man, I love questioning everything...even if my wife hates me for it!!!:lpf::lpf:

And the bees, well, imagine what we will know tomorrow...:D

MikeJ
06-07-2010, 08:06 AM
...
Do you think that in your religious view you have found something that never changes and that that gives you some sort of security? If so, you may be in for a surprise. Who knows?

There is so much to answer but I chose the last. Besides I have a feeling I will only to be told I am off topic in my own thread.

Yes. God's Word is Rock solid - it doesn't change. The only parts that change are the parts humans interpreted to their own desires - as their desires change then so do their interpretations. Of course the solution to that is simply to accept what He says as what He means - I know odd concept.

I would also like to point out "scientists" also seem to enjoy taking credit for a lot of stuff they really weren't involved in - or at least the people who did do the work considered themselves "inventors" - they suddenly become "scientists" so their achievements can be cataloged in?


...........



...
But just as a side bar, many "christians" forget to read ALL of the scripture and like to pick and choose the pieces that make them feel better...

Couldn't agree with that more.

............

The studies (tests) done are fallible - and if you build on wrong information you continue to go down a road that is wrong.
I mean there are so many variables possible that all the information could be wrong - remember just because you can get a reaction does not mean we understand the true process.

Mike

MeriB
06-07-2010, 02:12 PM
not sure what you mean by "take credit".
We learn. Sometimes what we are certain we "know" is proven wrong because someone discovers the means to examine it more closely. As an example, just becaues we couldn'r see x-rays didn't mean they weren't there. Good researchers died "discovering" what they were and more died learning how they affect us. I think they earned the right to claim the discovery and the credit. I think God is big enough to let them have it.
Meridith

MikeJ
06-07-2010, 03:49 PM
I think the thread has wandered a bit, but...
You understand everything you say is based on what you think you know?
God is much happier with obedience than imaginations - of course then we wouldn't need x-rays.

Mike

sqkcrk
06-07-2010, 03:58 PM
What do you think now devdog? Was I off the mark?

MikeJ, what makes you think you know what makes GOD happy or not? And what makes you think that happiness has anything to do w/ GOD? Perhaps GOD is beyond such human emotions.

devdog108
06-07-2010, 04:23 PM
Never said you were on or off, I just said he was making light of something...that was all. Ok, so since we are off thread ANYWAY and its going to go bye bye, i will finish by saying this.....Christians are SUPPOSED to go by the word of God, aka..the Bible. I do try my dangdest, but do not judge those who do not.....there choice. In the Bible, it clearly tells you what pleased God...I can quote scripture if you like......or we can talk about bees...and since everyone has their own individual beliefs and I am not here to change anyones mind, I choose BEES....and I will not rant about my beliefs...thats the bad thing about religeon. I refuse religeon and substitute my own Christianty thinking and way of life.....LOL...


And I still say they can hear after reading some of what the "scientists" evidence came up with...LOL.

MikeJ
06-07-2010, 04:47 PM
What do you think now devdog? Was I off the mark?

MikeJ, what makes you think you know what makes GOD happy or not? And what makes you think that happiness has anything to do w/ GOD? Perhaps GOD is beyond such human emotions.

I am sure these posts will soon be gone too. I must say though I do not think it is fair. If I came on and posted "scientific" studies and we started debating different views of "science" - the post would run 1000 posts and no problems.

I do not attempt to judge myself what makes God happy. I use His Word to tell me that. In fact all the answers to the questions you ask are there, take a look - pretty plain.

I don't want to judge others. If I go by what His Word says - It judges I just have to do. When someone says they don't want it I leave them alone (unless they want help). If I judge by my own ideas of right and wrong then I am a judge not God - I will pay for that. If I accept His judgements then I am not judging - He is, I am just obeying.

I hope you get to see this before it gets deleted - hope it helps answer your questions.
Mike

Barry
06-07-2010, 09:30 PM
I mean what if they have been "looking" at just about everything wrong?)

Planes would fall from the sky and boats would sink, but they don't because science does get some stuff right.

I was going to delete some posts, but I'll let them stay as long as this thread gets back on topic, otherwise I will. Go to Tailgater to discuss God and Science.

sqkcrk
06-08-2010, 02:12 AM
I was going to delete some posts, but I'll let them stay as long as this thread gets back on topic, otherwise I will. Go to Tailgater to discuss God and Science.

:) The bees have heard what GOD has spoken. :)

So, I guess we can put this to rest. Bees "hear", it just means we have to broaden our understanding of what the definition of hearing is. Hearing: the feeling of vibration. In our case it's w/ the ears on our heads. In the bees case it may be its' whole body or its' antennae, I guess.

BeeCurious
06-08-2010, 04:22 AM
In our case it's w/ the ears on our heads.

Ears which seem to have evolved from reptilian jaw bones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/science/13angier.html

I read "Your Inner Fish" last year and found it to be very interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/185-5284645-6648751?a=0375424474

Sam-Smith
06-08-2010, 08:00 AM
:) The bees have heard what GOD has spoken. :)

So, I guess we can put this to rest. Bees "hear", it just means we have to broaden our understanding of what the definition of hearing is. Hearing: the feeling of vibration. In our case it's w/ the ears on our heads. In the bees case it may be its' whole body or its' antennae, I guess.

I'm sure MikeJ that God can make himself heard to anything regardless of ability to perceive sound waves. Insects are amazing, some breath through their skin some, like bees can see ultraviolet (I'm sure they can else a cloudy day would make navigation impossible). All in all a strange thread to be sure, never heard of the pot banging idea, sounds like something to try!

MikeJ
06-08-2010, 11:45 AM
Ears which seem to have evolved from reptilian jaw bones.
...
I read "Your Inner Fish" last year and found it to be very interesting.
...

This is insane.
I do not know whether to laugh or cry.
To really believe that? And yet God and Christ are nonintellectual?
Fact that science is also religion - after that jaw bit don't tell me it isn't.

Barry - I never said humans didn't invent things that work. You seem to miss that the plane wasn't theorized into existance - inventors took ideas and played with them threw out the parts that didn't work and kept working with the parts that did. Like much of what we have. Only later did the scientific community want to call them "scientists". I am not against scientists. I am against the completely false religion they have been teaching.

Just wondering who you consider to be off topic and who took it off topic?


Smith - I am sure also. I wouldn't be surprised - when we know the truth - that so much is going on with the bugs (all animals in fact) that most wouldn't have ever accepted as being possibly - and that many would have called absurd.

It is now said that they hear by way of air pressure. Strangely I always thought of "sound waves" as air pressure. I mean if sound is indeed waves then that is nothing more than high and low pressure, and the mid ranges.


Mike

Sam-Smith
06-08-2010, 03:44 PM
I know other kinds of insects sense vibrations with their legs antenna ect. As a kid I used to get those daddy-long legs spiders to curl up by yelling at them.. I know its cruel.. Kids are stupid :D but the point stands.

MikeJ
06-08-2010, 04:29 PM
:D
One day my niece (when she was little) was over and a little ant comes walking down the door. She screams (she disliked bugs) and the little ant spins and runs as fast as possible back where he came from (one of those "it was funnier if you had been there").
Whether the ant heard air pressure or waves (as far as I can see the same thing) it was obvious it's brain interpreted it as a signal to get out of there.

Anything can be analyzed forever - I think there is only so much analyses that is of any use though. If a bug picks up on sound waves (vibrations) by any means that's hearing. Otherwise we don't hear either.

Mike

Barry
06-08-2010, 04:34 PM
Last night when I got home, there were at least a hundred ants on the counter top around the coffee maker. I told them that they were all going to die as I reached for the spray bleach cleaner. Not a single one of them ran for cover. They all perished. :cool:

MikeJ
06-08-2010, 04:48 PM
No... they evolved into silent, motionless life forms.

Clean riddance?