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beehive
03-28-2010, 07:42 PM
How long after feeding Fumagilin B can i add my Honey supers?

honeydreams
03-28-2010, 10:28 PM
I don't use Fumagilin B.

peacekeeperapiaries
03-29-2010, 12:03 AM
If you dont use fumigillin then why even respond to this post? :scratch:

BEEHIVE it is recommended that Fumigillin use be completed 4 weeks prior to honeyflow according to several different sources.

honeyshack
03-29-2010, 01:12 AM
The nice thing about feeding fumagilin in the spring in gallon pails or quart sealers, before a bloom is they will not really store the feed. They will consume it as fast as you can give it to them so they have the energy to make more bees.
They will rather consume this feed early on instead of crystalized honey because it is less work for them at a time when the energy needs are high and their strength and numbers are low.

rkr
03-29-2010, 08:18 AM
Can you use some homemade or commercial HBH in the syrup or will it effect the Fumagilin B in a negative way? I looked here and elsewhere and did not find a solid answer.

RKR

honeyshack
03-29-2010, 09:12 AM
Our proffesional apiarist at the University suggests not to since there is no study on the reaction of the two combined. One might cancel the other out and it might be $ down the drain.

rkr
03-29-2010, 10:53 AM
Thanks Honeyshack, good info!!
Thanks RKR

Oldbee
03-29-2010, 01:33 PM
"If you dont use fumigillin then why even respond to this post?"

Good point,.."peace"-keeper! -:rolleyes:


"The nice thing about feeding fumagilin in the spring in gallon pails or quart sealers, before a bloom is they will not really store the feed." ->> "Our proffesional apiarist at the University suggests...."--honeyshack.

Does that mean that Fumagilin-B will be effective thoughout the year, and specifically over the winter in northern climates? That would be nice to know, since there would be less chance of contamination of honey stores.

honeyshack
03-29-2010, 04:14 PM
"The nice thing about feeding fumagilin in the spring in gallon pails or quart sealers, before a bloom is they will not really store the feed." ->> "Our proffesional apiarist at the University suggests...."--honeyshack.

Does that mean that Fumagilin-B will be effective thoughout the year, and specifically over the winter in northern climates? That would be nice to know, since there would be less chance of contamination of honey stores.

i am not sure what your question is. So if i answer wrong, I am sorry.

Spring feeding is different than fall feeding for the winter. The spring feeding of fumagilin, you want them to consume it to clean up the nosema so they can get on with doing what they do best...build the strength of the colony for the summer flow.
Fall Feeding however, you want them to store the fumagilin so that they have access to the fumagilin when they need it. And most would agree, the hives that make it through the winter will use up most of their stores by spring, hence the reason why we feed.

The Canadian Honey Council is trying to get the beekeepers of Canada to not extract brood frames of honey for this very reason...contamination of the honey for consumption. This would not only include fumagilin b, but also terimyacin, and mite treatments.

:ot:
Right now in Canada, there is a pilot program under way to give the beekeeper $2.00 per frame that is sent to a specified location for rendering, up to $1000.00 a year. That is 500 frames you get paid to recycle...and I believe, you get the wax payout as well. The frames need to be intact.

Oldbee
03-29-2010, 06:00 PM
"i am not sure what your question is." --honeyshack.

Some beekeepers just starting out have experienced/seen some indication of Nosema; like a lot of spotting of dark feces around the entrances etc. This may be just dysentery but new beekeepers have been encouraged to not treat for Nosema and then find their hives,..mysteriously dead in the spring.

I want to know, if by treating only in the spring, would that be adequate for northern beekeepers whose hives have to cooped up for 4-5 months?

Some beekeepers are ADAMANT that Fumagilin is,....well,..almost a cancer causing vicious poison that we put into our hives and honey. Almost all the suppliers and beekeeping associations recommend some use of Fumagilin to control Nosema. So,..what is the truth about Fumagilin? Is it dangerous or not?? We need to know the truth.

honeyshack
03-29-2010, 09:09 PM
i think the best i can offer you and new beeks is test for nosema.
yes you need a microscope, however if you know or can find a vet in you area, they have a microscope that is as efficient if not better than what you need
Then work with the vet. There are pics on line that show nosema. Randy Oliver's site gives details on how to test. My recommendation is to take field bees, get the girls that are near the entrances.

Does fumagilin work for us in the north? For the most part yes. Feeding in the spring does a world of good. It sets back the nosema spores giving the bees the chance to brood up for the summer when we need the bees the most. Our season of foraging is short, we need to make the best of it. I say the most part because even through the best efforts sometimes it's hard to get under control. I have a friend in Alberta who has used the stuff. He saw signs of nosema and decided to treat. However, the bees were in bad shape and did not take the feed. In a yard of 30, 8 were alive by the end of summer. He tried the drench, by the pail, any way he could think of to get them to take the feed. It did not work.
There is more to sickness than just the spores. For example, nutrition, weather, mites, and other factors. If even one of these is not "right" fighting nosema could be a losing battle. Note i said could be. To fight nosema we have to look at the whole picture. Nutrition and mites being the first in the line in which we can control.
Does it work...yes, but you also have to look at the other factors involved and correct them as well...

Omie
03-29-2010, 09:44 PM
Fumagilin b is an antibiotic, right?

honeyshack
03-30-2010, 09:11 AM
Fumagilin b is an antibiotic, right?


NO it is not. The best term to describe, a fungicide. Nosema are spores, not a bacteria.

And the point of the question?

peterloringborst
03-30-2010, 10:15 AM
I believe you are splitting hairs. The name should refer to what it is used for, and if I use alcohol to kill bacteria, it is an antibiotic. If I drink it, it becomes a recreational drug. Anyway, the following is more pertinent.


Since the introduction of antibiotics, their use in intestinal amebiasis has been suggested by various workers in this field. Penicillin was used by Hargreaves (1945) in England and by Halawani et at. (1950) in Egypt, who found it effective in the treatment of several cases of severe amebic dysentery. Oxytetracycline (Terramycin) and Chlortetracycline (Aureomycin) were tried ...

In 1949 a new antibiotic, fumagillin, was isolated from an aspergillus culture by Hanson and Eble (1949). In America, it was found that its activity on fungi, bacteria and viruses is very small, but it was found active against the ameba.

GAMAL NOR EL-DIN. 1956. THE USE OF FUMAGILLIN IN THE TREATMENT OF AMEBIASIS. Research Institute for Tropical Disease, Cairo, Egypt

Omie
03-30-2010, 11:20 AM
And the point of the question?

The point of my question is so I can know exactly what kind of medication or treatment Fumagilin B is while reading this discussion. Do I have to declare a 'point' to ask a question?

honeyshack
03-30-2010, 01:06 PM
The point of my question is so I can know exactly what kind of medication or treatment Fumagilin B is while reading this discussion. Do I have to declare a 'point' to ask a question?

My apologies. I mis understood the tone of the question. First thing that came to mind was a "no treat no treat" "Fumagilin is bad".... and i misunderstood

Sorry

HS

peterloringborst
03-30-2010, 01:07 PM
Actually, the term antibiotic has much broader use now, as seen by this definition:

a medicine that inhibits the growth of or destroys microorganisms.
from anti- + Greek biōtikos ‘fit for life’ (from bios ‘life’ ).

Any agent that is used to kill microorganisms, such as essential oils, heat, radiation, bleach, etc. would be considered an antibiotic by this definition.

Omie
03-30-2010, 06:11 PM
Well, I think I know less now than when I asked the question! :D

I am definitely confused, since no matter how I google Fum-B, I keep seeing it described as an antibiotic. Either that or the somewhat vague term 'medication'. So far i haven't seen it described as a fungicide, miticide or pesticide, etc. Is it an antibiotic along the lines of pennicillin or terramicyn? (forgive spellings please).

HVH
03-30-2010, 06:55 PM
Maybe I can make it more confusing. Nosema used to be considered an amoeba but was later reclassified as a fungus. The generic term antibiotic can apply to any micro-organism but antimycotic would be more specific to fungi.

peterloringborst
03-30-2010, 06:58 PM
Not only did I explain the use of the term antibiotic but I also provided the correct spelling of penicillin and terramycin. When you say "along the lines of" what on earth do you mean?

Do you mean is it made from mold, like penicillin? The answer would be yes. But not all antibiotics are made from mold. Wikipedia may be helpful if you want to understand what antibiotics are and what they do:


Antibiotics are commonly classified based on their mechanism of action, chemical structure or spectrum of activity. Most antibiotics target bacterial functions or growth processes.

An antibiotic is basically a selective poison. But this would include a variety of substances such as salt, chlorine, alcohol, iodine, etc. as well as more selective antibiotics like ampicillin, fumagillin, chloramphenicol, sulfathiazole, etc.

If your interest is in whether putting fumagillin into hives another form of medicating, of course it is. But so is putting in lemongrass oil. Some people approve of one and not the other.

It is illegal to put stuff in hives that have not been tested and approved, like oxalic acid. That doesn't mean they are bad and just because another one is approved doesn't mean its a good thing.

I would avoid such approved medications as Apistan and Checkmite. I think the use of terramycin in hives is not harmful. I would avoid putting random essential oils into hives, even though this is not technically illegal because most of them are approved for use in food.

You have no idea what the effect of these products will be on your bees or your honey. If the bees or your customers are made sick by it, you will feel awful and could get sued.

WLC
03-30-2010, 07:17 PM
Antibiotic is O.K. .
Antimycotic is O.K. too.
Antimicrosporidial...
Antiameboid...
Antimicrobial...

How about antiangiogenesis?

It seems that fumigillin and its analogues has more than one application.
Take your pick.

Omie
03-30-2010, 07:46 PM
Maybe I can make it more confusing. Nosema used to be considered an amoeba but was later reclassified as a fungus. The generic term antibiotic can apply to any micro-organism but antimycotic would be more specific to fungi.

That's helpful, thanks.

honeyshack
03-30-2010, 08:13 PM
maybe anti fungal might be more layman appropriate. Just like when you treat atheletes foot with an anti fungal rather than an antibiotic. Nosema is a fungus in the gut.

Omie
03-30-2010, 08:14 PM
Not only did I explain the use of the term antibiotic but I also provided the correct spelling of penicillin and terramycin. When you say "along the lines of" what on earth do you mean?

You explained the term antibiotic in it's broadest sense, which included heat and radiation treatments. Though expansively accurate by some definitions, this definition wasn't very helpful to me I'm afraid, neither was the snarky tone, but thanks anyway, and thanks for your spelling lesson.

When I said 'along the lines of' I was going by one definition of an antibiotic I read which said "a chemical substance derivable from a mold or bacterium that can kill microorganisms and cure bacterial infections".
I hadn't read any "Wikipedia" definitions yet. But then I don't find Wikipedia to be the most accurate source of information about many things, I find it to be all over the map depending on who is writing the contribution...so I don't usually go there first for information if accuracy is important to me. I realize others might have differing opinions on this.


Do you mean is it made from mold, like penicillin? The answer would be yes. But not all antibiotics are made from mold. Wikipedia may be helpful if you want to understand what antibiotics are and what they do:
An antibiotic is basically a selective poison. But this would include a variety of substances such as salt, chlorine, alcohol, iodine, etc. as well as more selective antibiotics like ampicillin, fumagillin, chloramphenicol, sulfathiazole, etc.

Thanks. I did indeed wonder if it was made from a mold, like penicillin. And I didn't find that info at first while googling. I read some contradicting definitions.


If your interest is in whether putting fumagillin into hives another form of medicating, of course it is. But so is putting in lemongrass oil. Some people approve of one and not the other.

No that was not my interest. My interest (as I posed in my question) was in whether fum-b was an antibiotic, and I also wondered whether it was derived from molds or bacteria, along the lines of penicillin for example.


It is illegal to put stuff in hives that have not been tested and approved, like oxalic acid. That doesn't mean they are bad and just because another one is approved doesn't mean its a good thing.

Yes I realize all of that, thank you.


I would avoid such approved medications as Apistan and Checkmite. I think the use of terramycin in hives is not harmful. I would avoid putting random essential oils into hives, even though this is not technically illegal because most of them are approved for use in food.
You have no idea what the effect of these products will be on your bees or your honey. If the bees or your customers are made sick by it, you will feel awful and could get sued.

Though everyone has their own thoughts about what is 'good' and what is 'bad' to use, I too feel that we should all be extremely careful about what we put into our hives and on our bees. Nothing should be applied 'randomly', for sure. The utmost care should be used when considering any substance as a treatment, and I believe it is good to try to learn as much as possible about things we use on our bees. This goes double if one is planning to extract honey products for eating.

Omie
03-30-2010, 08:19 PM
maybe anti fungal might be more layman appropriate. Just like when you treat atheletes foot with an anti fungal rather than an antibiotic. Nosema is a fungus in the gut.

Ok, it's getting clearer to me. Thank you all for your time in explaining these things for me. :)

WLC
03-30-2010, 08:55 PM
Peter:

I find it interesting that a former New York State Bee Inspector thinks in terms of what is legal and illegal to put in a hive. Of course, your most generous references (and I do appreciate them) show that hives have accumulated large amounts of pesticides (general) that would require $175K to analyze. This is being done legally and regularly by, my new friends, the beekeepers.

In New York State today (as in, right now), I am under the impression that there are no bee inspectors currently being funded. I am also painfully aware that many state parks are being closed due to lack of funding.

What does that say to you as a beekeeper/scientist/inspector?

peterloringborst
03-31-2010, 06:31 AM
I find it interesting that a former New York State Bee Inspector thinks in terms of what is legal and illegal to put in a hive. Of course, your most generous references (and I do appreciate them) show that hives have accumulated large amounts of pesticides (general) that would require $175K to analyze. This is being done legally and regularly by, my new friends, the beekeepers.

Well, I have no opinion on what is legal, the law is clear that only approved substances according to the label are permitted. This does not include oxalic acid (which is legal in Canada and is very effective). It allows Apistan and Checkmite (which are ineffective at best and probably cause serious harm to colonies especially when they are present together). None of this is my opinion. My opinion is that it is inadvisable to put anything in hives that is not approved because you are legally liable for the consequences to the consumer.


In New York State today (as in, right now), I am under the impression that there are no bee inspectors currently being funded. I am also painfully aware that many state parks are being closed due to lack of funding.

What does that say to you as a beekeeper/scientist/inspector

Actually, I was very active and possibly instrumental in having the inspection defunded. I worked for NYS for three years and concluded, as many have, that it was wasteful, ineffective and hopelessly corrupt. I am in favor of privately funded research and consultation based on the model of the Province of Ontario and their Technology Transfer. In lieu of that I suggest that the beekeeping clubs band together and provide diagnosis, inspection and advisement.

As the President of the Finger Lakes Beekeepers Club, I am coordinating a Beginners class this April in Ithaca, NY. We will also have a presentation next February in Geneva where Randy Oliver and Heather Matilla have agreed to speak. Third presenter TBA.

For more info see: flbeeclub.com (http://flbeeclub.com)

peterloringborst
03-31-2010, 08:42 AM
this definition wasn't very helpful to me I'm afraid, neither was the snarky tone, but thanks anyway, and thanks for your spelling lesson.

Yes, well I am not an elementary school teacher, but if I were I would be horrified by the complete and utter lack of care that is afforded to such matters as spelling, grammar and sentence structure -- 'round these parts.

PS Not to mention the actual veracity of most of the statements herein presented as true and accurate. But, whatever. It's all good (to some people).

BEES4U
04-17-2010, 08:08 AM
Fall Feeding of Fumagillin.
It's recommended that you 1st feed the hives for winter weight and 2nd to feed Fumagillin so that it's available to the bees as they consume their winter stores.
And, from experience and reading the fall application is superior for knocking down the spore counts than the spring applications.
But, you have to start your medication schedule at some point in your management.
Regards,
Ernie

margot
04-17-2010, 10:17 AM
Has anyone had experience treating woodenware with ultraviolet light after a deadout from nosema? What kind of equipment do you need? Did the treatment work?

Axtmann
04-17-2010, 05:23 PM
If you don’t like to feed Fumagilin to your bees you can also mix Thymol in your syrup. Solve Thymol with alcohol and mix it with your syrup. – 1gram Thymol to 3 liter syrup. The result is much better than using Fumagilin. Check the internet for this.

Michael Bush
04-17-2010, 11:23 PM
While we are describing in detail what the actions of Fumigilan are, lets also list targeted gene disruption of methionine aminopeptidase 2 enzyme that results in an embryonic gastrulation defect and endothelial cell growth arrest in mammals. You might find that significant. Most of the world has.

irwin harlton
04-18-2010, 09:39 AM
Axtmann,thymol - 1gram Thymol to 3 liter syrup, can you post links for tis

Axtmann
04-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Google for Thymol via fumagillin, there are more pages, but some are in German.


http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/apido:2008022


http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/apido/2009070


http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053144022


http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=618&page=3