Operating costs

[WI-beek]

Is there any information available for avaerage operating cost per colony. I know there is no reliable number but there must be some kind of average. If one were looking for a loan you would need to have an idea of expenses and whatnot.

I am wondering how one would figure out your profit margin for a certain nuber of colonies under normal circumstances. If you had 200 colonies in an apiary and asumed you would harvest 100 pounds of honey per, and treat all colonies, requeen a certain number...................... Is there some kind of formula for this stuff.

Thank You for any input

WI-beek

[JonEdangerousli]

I'd imagine the number would be all over the place. But for me it's sort of like duck hunting. We've got the price of duck meat down to about $850/lb...

[Rohe Bee Ranch]

We have gators in Huntsville if you want them.:D

Back on topic...my operating costs per hive have really declined since I first started. Mostly due to the fact that when I started BK I was buying stuff that I really didn't need and never used and I was out in my bee yards almost everyday. I don't have an actual dollar figure, but I do spend less money and time per hive now that I have setteled into a fairly normal routine.

[Specialkayme]

I would be interested if someone could come up with a formula . . . but the number of factors involved would make it so much speculation I doubt it would be helpful.

[SwedeBee1970]

I guess it would be around $500.00 per hive per lifetime of colony. Like any business, the start up costs are what kills the fun. Start with new "Everything", and we're crawling to the bank for a loan.

Starter Hive - 200
Extra Supers - 75
Feeder- 20
Frames/Foundation - 50
vale - 50
Gloves/tools- 25
Smoker- 35
Medicine (if any) 50
Nucs or package
Bees- 125 each (shipping included) (expensive ones)
Honey extraction
Equipment- up to ??? 700 for a good one ?

Total = $$$$$ 630.00 w/o extractor equipment. $1330.00 or more with it.

Starting from scratch is nothing to admire.

[PCM]

Your talking 200 hives;
Why don't you go over to the Commercial beekeeping forum, those folks need a good laugh also.

PCM

[DRUR]

WI-beek:

Several months ago, after having read a 2-3 year old article which stated it costs over $100.00 per colony to treat, I threw that figure out to the group. My question was if this about the right amount to treat a colony per year. I received no replies. Not long ago someone threw the figure of $200.00 per colony per year to treat, and I think it was Barry Digman which challenged this amount, as he wanted the specifics for this amount. My suspicion based upon the response was that $200.00 was a little high, but my guess because of the lack of response was that the current $100.00 was a little low. So my guess would be somewhere in between. This is one of the reasons I chose not to treat and go small cell.

My guess is you were wondering about annual maintenance and not the initial startup costs. My guess is that with requeening and normal wear and tear, feeding in a bad year etc. you might be looking at around $40.00-$50.00 per year, per colony; but that's just using the SWAG method and this would exclude the $100-$200 per colony per year for treatments; although I suspect with proper management techniques this could be reduced. Hope this helps.

Danny

[nabeehive]

There is an artical in the bee culture this month "2010 Almond Pollination". It has a figure of $138/colony. I believe that included the med's.

[WI-beek]

There is an artical in the bee culture this month "2010 Almond Pollination". It has a figure of $138/colony. I believe that included the med's.

I read that already and I believe that number was for almond pollination and includes transportation and all the stuff that goes with it. It is also in this article that it is suggested that beeks have a figure to calculate there expenses. It is that lack of not learning how to use more than a hive tool and laughing at those who do that may end up broke scratching there heads.

[Mathispollenators]

:lpf: :lpf: :lpf:
I'm commercial and watching this thread. You guys are cracking me up in the speculation of how we do things. Beekeeping is farming and you can't figure a cost per hive thing it just don't work like that. Because farming is a gamble we can only speculate on honey yields and any one over 500 hives never can give actual hive counts only close estimates. And that isn't because we can't operate something more complex than a hive tool. I graduated from college with a 3.48 GPA in computer networking so I'm some what offended by that commit. I would never refer to a hobbyist in that manner as to belittle them by not knowing. Such as the post with the cost of equipment.

Starter Hive - 200
Extra Supers - 75
Feeder- 20
Frames/Foundation - 50
vale - 50
Gloves/tools- 25
Smoker- 35
Medicine (if any) 50
Nucs or package
Bees- 125 each (shipping included) (expensive ones)
Honey extraction
Equipment- up to ??? 700 for a good one ?

Total = $$$$$ 630.00 w/o extractor equipment. $1330.00 or more with it.

More way more than that you can't buy a commercial extractor even junk for that price. Recheck the prices of extraction equipment wax melters, large extractors, wax spinners, heat exchangers, honey pumps all that. And try guys to keep in mind you can't extract a few tons of honey with a hot knife and a hand crank extractor. I don't mean to offend you Swedebee but you are off way off in these prices. That $1330.00 won't even start equiping a commercial honey house much less buy lifts, trucks, and buildings we have on the commercial side. I know I wouldn't have the Swinger, Bobcat, trucks and trailers if it wasn't for bees.

[SwedeBee1970]

Indeed !

It's about time you joined us with your VAST intelligence !

[beemandan]

Yo Mathis,
Lets see. You got offended, bragged about your education and ridiculed the earlier posters. The original question was about a 200 hive operation….not thousands. Great post.

To the original poster, are you looking only for operating expenses/hive? Not the cost to buy new equipment? We're talking out of pocket expenses? I could look at my last year's business tax return, take my expenses and divide it by the number of hives and give you an idea of my costs/hive. I'm not a very efficient operation. It would include equipment depreciation and allowable vehicle expenses. It would not include any labor. Would this help? It'll take a little time on my part, so don't just say yes. Think about it.

[SwedeBee1970]

That would be interesting to know a ball park figure.

My previous post for cost was for an individual start-up, hence all the "?" marks.
I'd imagine commercially is much closer to whole sale. Maintenance is probably a small fraction after that.

[beemandan]

That would be interesting to know a ball park figure.

It's gonna need to be more than 'interesting' for me to take the time to dig out the return, cull the unnecessary stuff and come up with a ball park number.
To the original poster, is this only a curiousity? Or is this really important to you?

[Barry Digman]

Is there any information available for avaerage operating cost per colony.


I would suggest that you start researching locally. Your county extension office, universities, USDA offices in Wisconsin, etc. There may be someone in your specific area who would be willing and able to either help you develop a plan or guide you to someone qualified who can assist.

[beedeetee]

This is not on the 200 hive scale, but here are my costs:

I came through winter with 6 hives and now have 11. I spent:

Queens: $137.00
Jars: $110.47
Pollen patties: $65.00 (I obviously don't feed these much)
Sugar: $90.00
Labels/bands: $17.00
Treatments: $41.00 (approximate - I treated 6 with apiguard and Miteway-II and fumigilin)

So my total cost was $460.47 for 6-11 hives depending on when you want to count my number. I sold $1148.75 in honey(all retail), leaving me with $688.28 in profit less depreciation. I still have all of my equipment that I started with in 1986, so it will depend on how long you want to depreciate it over. I did replace gloves one year and need to again (a bunch of holes).

For 200 hives you won't be selling it all retail if you are able to get 100 lb/hive. The discussion earlier about $100/hive for treatments doesn't make any sense at all unless sugar/patties are treatment. You can treat 30 hives for $85 using Apiguard.

I gained 5 hives and have 105 lbs of creamed honey made for sale next year.

[DRUR]

WI-beek:

I hesitate to comment any further as I am just getting started back into beekeeping after being out of it since the mid 80s. I think that it is commendable though that you are trying to consider your costs in advance. This is part of good management. Also, imo, 200 colonies is a good starting place for someone who is trying commercially beek, who has little experience. However, I don't know about the part about getting a loan.

Might I take liberties to offer suggestions beyond your initial questions? If I offend you let me know and I will promptly delete my post.

I would not jump into this beyond what you could afford to lose 60-70% of. You might also limit potential losses by taking over someone else's disaster. Not all bee yards are going to be profitable, nor will they always be a 'safe' place for bees as America is addicted to poisoning the environment to suit their selfish needs. In other words, don't borrow money in anticipation of profits.

I would suggest that you continue doing what you are doing until you can establish your new venture. It may take years to develope profitable marketing of your end product. My 12-15 colonies started out very profitable during the late 70s and early 80s, but the economics changed when tricky Dick Nixon, opened us up to the Chinese honey. Many longtime beeks have gone broke due to the challenges of modern beekeeping. This is not to say that it can't be done, just to say that you may be in the middle of a swift stream so you better get yourself a big paddle.

I would suggest that some of the more experienced beeks start helping WI-beek out.

1. What does it cost to treat a colony per year? Break it down for different treatment methods, ie. varroa, nosemea, etc.

2. What kind of routine maintenance could he expect and what is the nature of these maintenance costs? (ie. box and frame repairs, harvesting equipment repairs, etc.)

3. How often to you guys work your colonies? (travel expenses can be a major expense, so he needs to compute how many times he must visit his yards.).

I realize the above will be somewhat different for each operation, but he needs some input from a variety of operations.

Dan, also take note that WI-beek started this thread and asked the initial questions, and not Sweedbee1970.

Kindest Regards
Danny

[sqkcrk]

Is there any information available for avaerage operating cost per colony. Thank You for any input

WI-beek

This is a really hard question to answer and like so many beekeeping questions, if you ask ten beekeepers you will probably end up w/ more than ten answers.

That being said, I would have to look at last years P&L Statement to say what yearly operating costs for 2008 were. I may PM you some figures, if I get the time.

Last year, at our NY State beekeepers mtng, the consensus of opinion on the cost of producing a lb of honey was that it cost more than a dollar. How much more is up to the individual.

There are lots of costs that are variable from beekeeper to beekeeper and in any beekeeping operation of a size larger than hobbyist and perhaps sideliner, there are in some ways a number of businesses. I don't know very many beekeepers, other than hobbyists, who are just honey producers. Most of the beekeepers that I know are Honey producers and pollinators and nuc sellers. So figuring out cost of operations for one aspect of the business takes quite a bit of accounting and book keeping expertise.

The short answer is , No, there is no formula. Not that I know of. And, imo, if anyone shows you one, I want to see it.

Good question though. Even if other wish to ridicule. Bin ther, dun dat.

[beemandan]

Dan, also take note that WI-beek started this thread and asked the initial questions, and not Sweedbee1970.

I realize that Danny. Which is why, in my reply to Swedebee I said:

To the original poster, is this only a curiousity? Or is this really important to you?
Best to ya.

[DRUR]

The discussion earlier about $100/hive for treatments doesn't make any sense at all unless sugar/patties are treatment. You can treat 30 hives for $85 using Apiguard.

beedeetee:

The figure in the article was actually $105.00 as I can recall. I also ran this by a migratory commercial beek that migrates from Texas to Wisconsin. He also told me that this figure is probably pretty close to being correct, but I don't remember if he was referring to all operating expenses, but I think it was just for treatments. I think he runs about 600 colonies on canola (he has pollenation contracts), but also makes splits to carry to sell when he moves north. His wife also sells at local markets and much of their honey is retailed. One of the things I was warned about was that what works, doesn't always, work so you end up treating several times with different methods. In other words the mites become immune. I really have no experience with this myself and this is all hearsay from other beeks and from what I have read, so take it with a grain of salt for what it's worth.

I got the idea that the migratory beeks operation was fairly prosperous, but it was him and his wife and he usually hired some highschool guys during summer to help with harvesting. Note: that he has a variety of income source, first selling nucs, next pollenation contracts, and next honey sales, of which most are retail. It seems like he said that his honey production was about 70# per colony and that he only had to wholesale about 2 barrels the prior year, the rest was all retail sales.

[alpha6]

For 200 hive OPERATING COSTS for a year. This does not include the costs of equipment needed to get a 200 hive operation up and running.

Feed - For 200 hives 2300 lbs of sugar at .47 a lb (you can also use HFCS but I find it comes out to pretty close the same per lb after you add water to the sugar) = $1081

Treatments - I run EO's in my hives included in the feed. I figure it runs about $55 per season.

Queens - If you are requeening every other year then figure 100 queens plus 20 for deadouts, etc. 120 queens @ 15 ea = 1800 (some comm beeks requeen every year so you can double that if you plan to take that route.)

Fuel Costs - Depends on your vehicle but I figure at least $1500 depending on how far apart your yards are and this does not include trucking to calf. if you plan to do almonds.

Woodware/frames - replacing frames and woodware to include boxes, pallets, tops, cleats, and such run about $230

Paint - You can get this for $25 for mismatched at Lowes for 5 gallons which is enough for 200 hives.

Misc. other expenses such as hive tools, vails, paint brushes, tape, etc, etc. that just add up will run $350 and $500.

That's about what you need for OPERATING costs on 200 hives. This does not include labor, anything to do with extracting, harvesting bottleing, selling etc. nor does it cover original equipment like trucks, extractors, uncappers, anything in the honey house nor any hive equipment, supers, frames.

SO based on that it comes to $5191 or about 26 per hive just to keep them at normal, but that is on the cheap. Things you should be prepared for are costs for engine repairs. I spent 3500 on a new transmission that I hadn't planned on this year. Chef got in an accident and had to get a new vehicle, things like that happen so those costs have to be averaged in.

As far as figuring out how much each hive will produce...like pointed out earlier it all depends. You could get a bumper crop or no crop at all so be prepared for that. Like I have said before...on starting up...if you break even you are doing well...if you lose money that seems to be the norm the first five or so years.

good luck

[Mathispollenators]

Ok I can't operate tool more complex than a hive tool. And you can equip a honey house with $1300. I didn't mean to be offensive nor ridicule Swede I was only stating his numbers were off. However if Swede's right and you can I'm very sorry to have offended anyone.

[SwedeBee1970]

None taken.

My issue was a new "Beekeeping" start up cost. Once the bulk of the materials are purchased, maintenance can't be much else.

[ccar2000]

If you have access to a copy of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" from Dadant (mine is the eighth printing, 2008). There is a chapter that covers "Business Practices and Profitability" It looks like the sample budget for a 3,000 colony enterprise puts $43.23 per hive for 2,000 honey producing hives and $39.37 per hive for the other 1,000 being used for pollination. They are including things such as labor, transportation, utilities and equipment repairs, etc... And it does not refer to the location of the sample enterprise. Of course, your honey crop would determine the profit margin.

[beemandan]

If you have access to a copy of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" from Dadant (mine is the eighth printing, 2008).Unless there's something more current, the last 'extensive revision' of 'The Hive and the Honey Bee' was in 1992. You may need to adjust those numbers a bit to account for 17 years of inflation.

[WI-beek]

ccar2000

does the book "the hive and the honeybee" break down those expenses so you can see what they are. If so I think I will by that book. Also was that book rivised before it was printed or was it basically the precious 1992 edition.

I also thank the rest of you for your input and I will comment on them soon. I was half done responding last night when I had to deal with a full fledged fit from my daughter which took about twenty minutes to settle and when I steeped back to the pc I said screw it and whipped it out. I will entertain you all soon.

Thanks

WI-beek

[Flyer Jim]

This might help.

Determining Rental Prices
What is a fair rental price for almonds? A fair price is determined by first getting a firm grip on operating costs and then adjusting pollination fees accordingly. Dr. Michael Burgett (Oregon State University) has published the Pacific Northwest Honey Bee Pollination Economics Survey every year for the past 23 years. This survey performs a tremendous service for all beekeepers as it gives them a handle on pollination prices and operating costs. The current Survey (see Summer 2009 Speedy Bee) gives an average annual hive maintenance cost of $178/colony with a range of $132 to $225/colony. Burgett politely suggests that “beekeepers should try to be more precise in calculating their operating costs. If you can’t answer the question of your operating cost on a per colony basis, you need to adjust your operational accounting.”

Jim

[loggermike]

http://cfbf.com/agalert/AgAlertStory.cfm?ID=1404&ck=186A157B2992E7DAED3677CE8E9FE40F

"The cost to care for each colony could be as high as $225 this year. About five to six years ago, it was about $125 to run a beehive per year," Wooten said. "The thing about bees is you put all of your money into them all year long, and for those that die in the winter, you have to take that cost factor for the dead hive and spread it over the live hive, because it is a loss."

The high costs reflect a lot of hired labor. If you do the work yourself, you don't count the labor cost , because if you do, you will gas off your bees and get a Walmart greeter job.:(

[WI-beek]

Well Im glad my post found so many interested people who wished to add their thoughts and data.

First of all I did not really expect to get much help but more donkeys then thoughtful input. To my surprise there was/is both. I know this is not a simple question to answer and not one that can be answered easily or with accuracy. I threw the question out there more or less to just see what I would get. I got much more valuable information then I ever expected. That said..

I will take the time now and try to respond to everyone who posted a response.

JonEdangerousli

"I'd imagine the number would be all over the place. But for me it's sort of like duck hunting. We've got the price of duck meat down to about $850/lb..."

Thats why I prefer to stop over to my friends places for a beer when they are grillin goose or duck. I got my goose and duck down to 0.00 cents a pound and it is well worth the effort.

Rohe Bee Ranch

I am just getting started myself and it is not cheap. I will not see cost mellow down for a long time. I belive though that the largest expenses will be initial equipment costs and disease outbreaks. Hopefully I can stay standing through these

Specialkayme

"I would be interested if someone could come up with a formula . . . but the number of factors involved would make it so much speculation I doubt it would be helpful."

I belive a program (software) could fairly easily be made with all they different types and kinds of expenses you may or will have. Everyones area is unique. If you had software which had an itemized list and would calculate for you, all you have to do is enter the cost you expect to have for each, product you hope to achive, and price you hope to get and with the click of a button you would have a rough extimate of your profit margin for the year. You could have a low, average and high figure. A worst, ok, and great season projection. I belive this would be of tremendous value and help commercial beekeepers make better decisions thoughout the year and beyond.

SwedeBee1970

Thank you for your expense list. I will copy and paste this to a document for future reference if needed. Also, those are very expensive bees. I have never heard that high of a number before.

PCM

"Your talking 200 hives;
Why don't you go over to the Commercial beekeeping forum, those folks need a good laugh also."

I glad I could give you a good laugh. I hope it improved your day.

DRUR

Thanks for your response. I think the cost of treatment can be controlled much easier in a small operation when one can treat hives more on an individual bases than just treating everything for insurance. treatments are probably one of the most important cost that needs to be managed properly to keep as much $$$$$ in your pocket but I can do nothing but speculate on it because I am a newbie. I think 100 dollars has to be to high to if a beek is to make a profit. I am no dummy and know for a fact that the big guys take matters into there own hands to beat that cost or go out of business.

As far as what I was looking for was a number (expense) for an established apiary. So I am looking for an Idea of what it costs to keep the yard up to par properly. In order to do that you need a per hive average. A beek could do this if he pays attention and could look at this number and try to keep the cost down (on budget). I'm sure that will get some good laughs but it is how you do business if you are smart.

Mathispollenators

Thanks for your input. Farmers that are still in business for the most part are not running a gambling operation but a managed gamble. All I can do is speculate. And I hope to learn what I can from your experience and the number you may be able to provide. I am sorry that I offended you. I did not mean to offend you or any other respectful beek. The comment I made was in response to an ignorant statement made by another directed to me like a fourth grader. I know you can not nail down your expenses to a T. Maybe I am waisting my time and effort and time to think that one may be better off with a tool for estimating ones profit margin but I think not. You professionals may not need such a thing for you know everything that goes on and know what to expect from experience. But I still think even you could benefit from better planing and the tools to do so. It would also be nice to know what it cost to but what you stated in you last paragraph if you would provide it.

beemandan

I think I can figure out start up costs rather close. Although I know there are many places to get stuff and prices and quaility vary. It would be nice to know how to get stuff for the best price and from who and what one can sacrifice in quality and what other simular things like this there may be. I would appreciate it if you would give me some numbers. I will send you a pm and if you want to shot the bull on the phone for a bit that would be great.

to your second post both. If you got the time for me to give you a single and b.s. for a bit, than you can hear for yourself. Ill pm you and you can do what you want from there.

Barry Digman

Thanks for the ideas. I will have to look at them and give them some thought. Thanks again.

beedeetee

Thanks for info. I plan on raising most of my queens and buying some each year to see what im missing and for genetic variation. Also, hives can be treated much cheaper, you just wont hear all the commercial beeks telling you how, or me for that matter.

beedeetee

I am not offended in any way by your post and really appreciate your thoughtful insight. I will tell you that I have great passion for my bees and my hobby and want my beekeeping affair to be more than a hobby. I do have a commercial outfit that I talk to when I buy more equipment and they are very helpful but they are busy and have work to do so I cant just call them or stop by and pick there brain all day. I have lots of land at my disposal right now for free. This may change as the land owners are family and are older and tickets get punched when least expected and some could get sold for greed. i can probably find more free land to keep bees as I am in old dairy country and the folk here are kind and Im sure I can find the land when I need it. I will also tell you I will not take a loan out even if I could. I just threw that out there because beeks must take out loans on ocasion and I cant imaging banks are going to just hand the money over without numbers so I asume there has to be some numbers out there. I would love to work with someone part time but I have a full time job and a daughter. The free time I do have, I have spent screwing around with my bees. I ran my own busniss for about ten years before and want to again but want to actually do something I enjoy. So I intend to work my way into it slowly but surly. Thanks again for your insight. I appreciate it.

alpha6

EO's. Not sure what that is, could you be more specific. Thanks for the rest of your input. I appreciate you taking the time to do so.

This brings to mind a question I have wondered about for some time. In order to get into pollination: What is the minimum number of hives I could start with and make a profit. Would a one ton flat bed crew cab with a flatbed trailer and a bobcat work for starters. I have kept my one ton crew cab in case i decided to get back into roofing. I plan to make it a flat bed and use it for my bees now. Ive been thinking I should get a flat bed trailer and an old bobcat for starter. Any thoughts anyone.

Flyer Jim

“beekeepers should try to be more precise in calculating their operating costs. If you can’t answer the question of your operating cost on a per colony basis, you need to adjust your operational accounting.”

This is basically what inspired me to start this thread and see if there was more data out for broader circumstances. I wonder if this guy got emails telling him to start a thread in the commercial beek section so they could get some good laughs?

Thanks again all who gave there two cents. I will add more to this thead because I have some ideas and thoughts I would like to share but I belive this is already a bit much for one post.

WI-beek

[JohnK and Sheri]

Hi WI-beek
I have a few thoughts and figures to throw in here.

Meds: I am amazed at the amounts of money some people are hearing it costs to treat a colony per year. Yeah, us commercials complain a lot, lol, but if it cost anywhere near $100, let alone $200 annually to treat, none of us would be in business. If you figure on the high side Fumagillan twice a year at $6 ea so $12, some sort of mite treatment, say another $10, round it up to $25 to allow for antibiotics.

Feed: can be a big expense in Wisconsin. If you get most of the honey off them (which is the goal) it can cost another 60+ # of HFCS to get them through winter, so if you figure at .30 that is $18, let's say $20 to allow a little feed in spring too. You can add another couple bucks for patties if you want to boost them in early spring. If/when you consider almonds, this price will go up, especially the pollen sub required to support brood through to pollination time. You can limit this expense by leaving them honey to winter on but that negatively effects the bottom line.

Gas: is a big variable. Keep your colonies as large and as close as practicable, use routes for most efficiency, keep one yard on the home property. If you can keep them within 10 miles of home and can limit the trips to 2 a month,you can keep your miles under 500 for the year. You should be more than safe at $5 per colony.

Requeening: When we wintered in Wisconsin we didn't automatically requeen any colonies annually. We basically made sure everything was queenright in the spring with purchased queens and figured some would requeen themselves over summer. Those that went queenless in January were pretty much just fixed in spring and were part of our average 5-10% or so loss. You can analyze how efficient this is in comparison to the cost and labor to requeen on an annual or semiannual basis. You do the math.:) Let's pencil in $5 for Queens.

Bee replacement: hasn't been discussed much and can be a considerable cost that needs to be taken into account. I would figure a loss of 25% for the first few years and either expect to make splits and weaken existing colonies, lessening their honey production by doing so or purchase packages. On drawn comb in Wisconsin a package can make a pretty fair honey crop, but you can make your own splits with a purchased queen as well. If you ballparked $3000 a year for losses that is another $15.
(Note: We have all heard stories of much higher losses than this from experienced beeks. A good plan would account for a couple years of much higher losses.)
When you take your losses is a big factor in determining costs. If you put a lot of feed and meds into a poor colony with little chance of making the winter you are raising your costs. Take your losses in the fall. Only us pollinators try to nurse every last bee along til almonds, lol.
The #! trick in beekeeping is to limit bee mortality. Keeping your bees thriving limits costs and enhances income. The bottom line is what matters most in the long and short term.

Misc Costs: not included but needing to be addressed are items like winter wraps, fencing, replacement woodenware, vehicles, repair parts, paint, small tools and/or depreciation, interest associated with these, which can vary greatly of course, depending on what you start out with.

Keep in mind these costs are not static, one activity impacting another. For instance, if you requeened colonies in late summer, the cost of Qs would go down, winter survival might go up, and spring replacement/requeening costs might go down. . To get those queens installed during honey harvest, labor might go up. Or, if you sold all your bees in fall as blow bees you would have higher spring costs but no feed, treatment or wintering costs. It is complicated; an excel spreadsheet would be great....maybe I will work on one in all my spare time.;)

Sheri
PS we are busy right now but we will be Wisconsin-bound in a couple days and will have a little time to breathe in December if you want to go into a little more detail.

PPS EO=essential oils

PPPS usually a semi (400-500) is a minimum size to efficiently send to almonds, but smaller beeks can sometimes share semis for better shipping efficiency. Almond supply/demand is ever changing and ya gotta analyze this equation annually as it is constantly changing.

[WI-beek]

Ok folks, heres an idea that should get a few stirred up. As I see it the most expensive treatment out there is Fumagilin. The stuff is just plain and simple a monopoly on the manufacturing end of it and someone is getting filthy rich on this stuff. Now please forgive me for any inaccurate and/or completely false assumptions or statements. When I"m in the apiary and the wind blows hard the back of my ears get really cold (I'm sure you can figure out why). Im not sure about all the factors that surround the medication; Patents, manufacturing difficulty, manufacturing costs, ......... That said I believe that patents run out in seven years, there is no way the manufacturing costs justify the retail prices, and the stuff does not have to be made aboard the International space station or in orbit.

Now call me crazzy, stupid, mentally unstable, or whatever you want but if commercial beek got serious, got together and take the bull by the horns they can conquer it. How you ask? This should be good for a laugh you might say. Well let me tell you a little story.

I worked in the residential and commercial roofing trade for about 13-14 years. I used to sub work from a guy in Minneapolis MN. As laws always change and our local, state and federal governments alway seen to know whats best the requirements for liability insurance changed and forced commercial roofing company's meet certain liability requirements. The guy called for a job and I went to discuss it at his office and as usual the tight wad would wine about his expenses when negotiating a contract and he informed me that to have the insurance coverage he needed now that it would cost him over $160.000 dollars to for liability insurance under the new guidelines for his 15 to 20 man flat crew. Wow! now thats some overhead. This guy was smart and tight as tight as they get. He overcame this cost though. How? He contacted other reputable companies and they (100 plus) started there own insurance company. They all put in a certain amount of money which would remain in an insurance pool for three years and after that they would get there portion of money back if it was not sucked up by claims. I cant remember the the exact figures but I know what he ended up paying a year and what he would have had to pay was only a fraction of the original and with the possibility of getting some of it back!!

What does this have to do with Fumagilin? If there is not a legal roadblock, commercial beeks could get together, contract with a pharmaceutical manufacture and contract for a certain quantity to be manufactured, labeled and packaged at a fraction of the cost. I even know a place that maybe, possibly, could make it ( I really have no idea for sure but its a possibility).

In this world today it seems you are either getting screwed or doing the screwing. As I said, Im not sure of all the circumstances that surround the product but If there is not a legal roadblock this should be done right now. Why not?

I would like to hear why it cant be done.

WI-beek

[JohnK and Sheri]

re Fumagillan
You can rest assured that when there is such an expense for any particular item beeks will be looking at alternatives.
There is growing evidence that Fum isn't the only or even the best solution for Nosema C.
Sheri (going to bed now:D)

[WI-beek]

JohnK and Sheri

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge related to the issue. Very well explained and great detail.

WI-beek

[alpha6]

Shari answered most of the questions you asked me and she is right on so I won't repeat it.

The only thing you could think about is this. We have moved from treating with Fum-B to using Thyme oil in our feeds to take care of the mite problem with excellent success. We also add lemongrass and spearmint (basically the same stuff in HBH) which appears to keep the bees healthier, stronger and live longer, but this could also be due to the fact of the feed itself which includes protein which has been shown to be a contributor to the same thing. Keith J. on this forum has an excellent pattie that has shown to give the same kind of results.

Comm. beeks as Sheri pointed out are always looking for the best solution at the lowest costs because it adds up with the number of hives you have. We have found that EO's cut cost and do the job better then most. The fact that we don't have to use chemicals in the hives is just one more plus.

[Michael Bush]

As already mentioned it varies much from year to year. The cost of equipment could be estimated pretty closely but the life of it and the cost of the life of it in one year varies by climate. In an arid climate equipment may last almost indefinitely while a wet climate it may rot out very quickly.

The cost of feeding, for me varies from nothing to a lot per hive. Maybe as much as sixty to eighty pounds of sugar per hive in a bad year and as little as none in a good year with a nice fall flow.

The cost of meds for me is nothing, of course, as I don't treat at all for anything.

The cost of queens for me is the cost of some plastic queen cups and, I suppose the depreciation of the equipment (cell bar frames, cell starters etc.)

After a bad winter, I may buy some packages to have enough bees early enough to set up mating nucs to raise queens earlier, and if I can negotiate to get them without queens, so much the better, but after a good winter I may have enough bees and this may cost me nothing. But then if I was only rearing my own queens, I'd just wait until I had enough bees.

So how much it costs varies wildly.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexpectations.htm

[ccar2000]

I have the 8th printing. It is the 1992 version. But the chart (table 2, pg 732) Unfortunately I cannot attach the scan I made of it. The book is an awesome reference that you should add to your reference library.

[SwedeBee1970]

Too many variables to be close to accurate. So many different things can happen or not.

[WI-beek]

Shari answered most of the questions you asked me and she is right on so I won't repeat it.

The only thing you could think about is this. We have moved from treating with Fum-B to using Thyme oil in our feeds to take care of the mite problem with excellent success. We also add lemongrass and spearmint (basically the same stuff in HBH) which appears to keep the bees healthier, stronger and live longer, but this could also be due to the fact of the feed itself which includes protein which has been shown to be a contributor to the same thing. Keith J. on this forum has an excellent pattie that has shown to give the same kind of results.

Comm. beeks as Sheri pointed out are always looking for the best solution at the lowest costs because it adds up with the number of hives you have. We have found that EO's cut cost and do the job better then most. The fact that we don't have to use chemicals in the hives is just one more plus.

I am a bit confused on your statement that you replaced fum-b with thyme oil to take care of mites. Fum-b is not a mite treatment. Could you please revise this statement so I have a better understanding of the issue.

Thanks

WI-beek

[Countryboy]

Can I hire you guys, or let me use your workers? Am I the only one who considers labor to be an expense? My time is valuable. If I don't place a value on my time, how can I make a good business decision in regards to hiring Amish kids for $6 or $8 an hour, versus doing the same work myself?

How many man hours are spent scheduling, paperwork, applying meds, requeening, etc.? Those are operating costs too.

[JohnK and Sheri]

Country boy, this is for 200 colonies, no help needed.:D Being self employed you get all the overtime you want and don't get to write it off either.
Sheri

[JohnK and Sheri]

CountryBoy
I want to hire YOUR help. $6 per hour? WOW, I would be embarrassed to offer that.:o We'd sit back and let those guys do all the work, lol.
But seriously, you are correct, the operator's labor is a factor. Trouble is, it is probably the most variable aspect of beekeeping.
What takes a person 1 hour might take another person 3 hours.
If something isn't done correctly the first time it still needs done, and sometimes you have to fix what you screwed up the first time.:D
Even not getting something done at the right time can raise the operating costs of another aspect considerably.

There have been threads about how many colonies a person can run by themselves, but it is way more than 200 colonies. 200 is easily doable on weekends and evenings while keeping the full time job.
Sheri

[Countryboy]

I want to hire YOUR help. $6 per hour? WOW, I would be embarrassed to offer that.

Hey, I didn't offer. That is what they said an orchard was paying them when I asked how much they would charge me to do some work.

We'd sit back and let those guys do all the work, lol.

I said kids. Not adults. There are limits to what they can do.

A boy can do half the work of a man.
2 boys do even less.
3 little boys don't get any work done.

But Eli's 16 year old daughter will work circles around most men.

200 is easily doable on weekends and evenings while keeping the full time job.

And then when you put up the greenhouse and big garden...
And you occasionally help farmers...
And you get a small metalworking machine shop going...
And you have a woodworking shop equipped and running...
And then your eBay becomes a sideline...
And then you start selling produce at a local Amish auction barn...
And then you start keeping bees...

And there are only 24 hours in a day.

While working your fulltime job[s].

12 years ago, I was working 44 hours a week at one job, 48 at another, and chasing a PYT or doing odd jobs in spare moments....and I ended up falling asleep driving and had a nasty auto accident. That taught me a very important lesson - just because I can do a ton of work doesn't mean I have to. My time is valuable - concentrate on the things I do best (or which pay the best) and sub out the menial tasks to people who work for less money.

Life is so much more enjoyable when you have time to enjoy it. I'm not up to 200 hives yet. But you can bet that long before I get there, I will have hired help in order to maximize my time.

[Bens-Bees]

Countryboy,

Hope they aren't directly employed by you... $6 an hour is below federal minimum wage, so if they are working directly for you, you could inadvertently end up owing them more down the line, as well as a possible fine.

I don't think that applies if they are independant contractors though.

[tecumseh]

sgtmaj writes:
Hope they aren't directly employed by you... $6 an hour is below federal minimum wage, so if they are working directly for you, you could inadvertently end up owing them more down the line, as well as a possible fine.

tecumseh:
at least at one time 'farm employment' was excluded from almost all labor laws including minimum wage.

there are (I have been told) a number of other holes in the fair labor practices laws enforced by the federal government.

[WI-beek]

Here in Wisconsin I believe Amish are excluded from minimum wage. The don't pay social security and do not collect benefits. Im not sure how it works but when I worked for a pole shed builder when I was a kid they hired Amish for 5 dollars and hour and that was less than minimum wage. I believe they paid them cash too and was completely legal as far as I know.

[honeyshack]

I want to hire YOUR help. $6 per hour? WOW, I would be embarrassed to offer that.


200 is easily doable on weekends and evenings while keeping the full time job.

And then when you put up the greenhouse and big garden...
And you occasionally help farmers...
And you get a small metalworking machine shop going...
And you have a woodworking shop equipped and running...
And then your eBay becomes a sideline...
And then you start selling produce at a local Amish auction barn...
And then you start keeping bees...

And there are only 24 hours in a day.

While working your fulltime job[s].

12 years ago, I was working 44 hours a week at one job, 48 at another, and chasing a PYT or doing odd jobs in spare moments....and I ended up falling asleep driving and had a nasty auto accident. That taught me a very important lesson - just because I can do a ton of work doesn't mean I have to. My time is valuable - concentrate on the things I do best (or which pay the best) and sub out the menial tasks to people who work for less money.

Life is so much more enjoyable when you have time to enjoy it. I'm not up to 200 hives yet. But you can bet that long before I get there, I will have hired help in order to maximize my time.

add in the:

...70 head of cattle,
...the making of hay
...the seeding and land work
...the book work and the housework
...the fall farm work that the cattle need, like hay hauled home
...and then the off farm job

along with all what country boy wrote

on a side note here is a work sheet for costing per hive. It is slightly outdated so you have to change the input prices to match today's costs. Add in what you need and delete what you do not need

Should set you up with the cost per colony. Then add 25% for the things you forgot, and yes, yours and any other person you hire labour
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/financial/farm/pdf/cophoneyproductioncosts1997.pdf

[Countryboy]

Hope they aren't directly employed by you... $6 an hour is below federal minimum wage, so if they are working directly for you, you could inadvertently end up owing them more down the line, as well as a possible fine.

They are workers. They are not employees. They receive pay. They do not receive wages. The Internal Revenue Code clearly defines what an 'employee' is, and what 'wages' are. Workers and pay are outside the scope and jurisdiction of the IRC. Federal minimum wage standards only apply in situations where IRC 'wages' are paid.

Please keep in mind there is ZERO legal requirement for a person to have a SSN. NONE. A person without a SSN cannot incur an income tax liability.

"The revenue laws are a code or system in regulation of tax assessment and collection. They relate to taxpayers, and not to nontaxpayers. The latter are without their scope." United States Court of Claims, Economy Plumbing and Heating v. United States, 470 F.2d 585, at 589 (1972)

Learn more at www.losthorizons.com

[Roadigger]

I agree Mathis, You have alot of costs and unknows that can happen.
Hey farmers around me have gotten goverment money to cover there loses.
Why not commercial Bee keepers. I know one farmer by me who got over
$150,000 and thats not very big comepared to some of the other farmers have recieved twice that.

[Myron Denny]

My The Hive and the Honey Bee indicates it is the second printing 1993 version. When it is refering hive cost near the bottom are these the bee cost?
It has an equipment cost above that I assume is box cost, anyone know?

[KQ6AR]

Funny, I worked for an old cowboy, Ken Brown in CA. He used to say that all the time when 3 of us would get together.

If you have one man you get a days work
2 half a day, &
3 none


[I]

A boy can do half the work of a man.
2 boys do even less.
3 little boys don't get any work done.

[WI-beek]

Can anyone help me Please?

I have been researching crop growers in Wisconsin that need to rent colonies of bees to increase crop yields or have viable crops and the crops they grow. All I have really found are apples, cranberries, and cherries. I know there are others but I can not find any information that is very helpful. I am interested in the price paid, when fruit set occurs, acreage grown, and of course significant crop types.

I would really appreciate any information anyone can provide.

I am in the process of writing a business plan for my own use to try to get a feel for what is possible. I have a full time job that is pretty flexible with four days off a week and I can call in under certain circumstances as long as it does not get out of hand without any real threat of losing my employment. I really want to find a second income being my own boss. I believe I can achieve 100 colonies by fall 2011 without borrowing money or having a disastrous disease outbreak. Which brings up these question.

Is 100 colonies enough to provide pollination and make a profit? Are there growers who need a hundred or less colonies? Is it possible to make a profit with one hundred colonies if you can find contracts within a hundred miles or so? Are there some crops that pay for pollination with the bonus of a honey crop? Anything else I need to know?

Thanks for any help!

WI-beek

[concrete-bees]

WI-Beek

its hard to say ..... what profit is - in the beginning - as your start up cost

but what i can lend you is this

i think we are on the same path as to what we want -
what im doing this year i focusing on smaller markets - way smaller then what is normal but this is good .....i think .... for now

what im doing is adverting for pollentation rental for small gardens and crops under 40-50 acs
and im only charging $50 per hive per crop and $50 per season for home Gardens - at first you will think ..... this guy is off his rocker ....but

the emails are PORING in - i cant keep up with it
so im now making routes and contracts and feel that i might not turn profit this year but within three years i should see profit --

i hope this helps - also in my emails i have gotten people wanting 100-200 hives and willing to pay 80 per hive,,, but sadly i cant help them this year but they are happy to get me next year -

start small - grown larger --- rather then start large and end small !!!!!!

[beedeetee]

In our cherry orchard (50 acres) we place 50 hives. The cherry association hires the semi of bees to be brought in. When I was a kid the bees came to our orchard on a smaller flatbed truck. (Very exciting at night to see it come from my bedroom window. He might as well have been hauling dynamite and open containers of gasoline with open flames around....very dangerous looking).

Anyway the prices have always been inthe $40's for cherries. The beekeeper doesn't have to place the hives. He brings the semi and unloads onto the concrete slab at the cherry association shipping facility. Orchard owners or workers load the pallets onto the bin trailers or their trucks and place the hives.

[WI-beek]

Do you know if they handle it the same way in Wisconsin? By this I mean the association renting th bees. I'm sure this makes it much more convenient for the growers and keeps cost stable.

[Beeslave]

There are a few small orchards(apples) that want only 2-4 colonies at a time so I found it not worth the hassle(charge what you feel is profitable for you). They are located in and around Chippewa and Eau Claire. Blueberry growers also like honeybees for pollination. Large pumpkin patches sometimes want bees. I'm charging $40.00 per hive this year for apples with a 8 hive minimum. Organic blueberries I will pollinate for free but the grower needs to give me a place to set 24-32 hives and leave them for the summer. Small orchards and patches usually allow you to make honey also because there is usually other forage around. In WI I have had no growers move hives where they want them, I take care of placing and pickup.

[JohnK and Sheri]

You really need to balance any loss of honey, trip costs and time which can eat up any gains. We only place bees for pollination (other than almonds of course) where we can set them down for the season in good diversified forage. We make one exception in a local truck farmer who is on our "route" and rents 1 pallet for strawberry bloom. He pays us $50 per hive. This would not be worth it if we had to go out of our way.

The bees (in our area at least) do better at honey production than cranberries 9 out of 10 years. Cranberries can be very hard on bees, they usually go backwards.

With 100 colonies, apples might be a good option if the drops were big enough and the drive not too far. The bees will usually make honey from other sources than apples.

A few years ago we were contacted by a blueberry grower north of you that was desperate for bees. He was willing to pay $90 or more then, but only due to his contract falling through.

As for the growers moving their own bees, while I can see benefits, I would want some pretty good assurance (with compensation for lost colonies) they knew what they were doing in handling the bees, not to move at noon, etc. I think I would also want paid by the Association, not every grower who picked up a few colonies.
Why not call the various Growers Assoc and ask them how they do it? They probably also have a list of growers you could contact, maybe a pollinators list. If the Association doesn't consolidate bees for smaller growers I wouldn't doubt some growers do. Call the growers in your area, they have time to talk now.
Sheri

[beedeetee]

In our case each orchard used to order their own bees from whoever they wanted. A beekeeper offered a discount for a semi-load centrally dropped. Believe me the growers move them at night (the colder the better) since they don't have suits.

The deal is, if the growers are there when the semi shows up the beekeeper loads their trucks or trailers. So there is a long line of vehicles waiting to be loaded. We spread ours out with tractors with forks, but most just drive trailers into the orchard and leave them. Then drive them back to get them unloaded. The association has fork lifts, so if you are late or bring them back early you load your own with the fork lift.

The association pays for the bees and the members pay the association. The problem with the associations is that they won't be manning a phone in the winter/spring so you will probably have to drive around until you find orchards and ask how they get their bees.

[WI-beek]

Thank you all for the information you have given me. I figured I would have to have close to 100 or so colonies to even start playing with pollination. I actually live very close to the orchards in the Chippewa valley area, about twenty minutes south of me.

If I were to leave my hives there permanently would I have to worry about the pesticides they use? I could easily care for them without really going out of my way. As far as that goes they could be on my way to work, I would just have to take a different route. If pesticides are not a real problem, I would like get a few hives over there this spring and see what kind of honey crop I would get over the summer.

Maybe its not worth the hassle. I really have no Idea. I guess there is only one way to find out ehh.

Thanks again for all the help

WI-beek

[beedeetee]

If you leave them there permanently, you probably won't be paid for pollination. For about 10-15 years my dad thought that it would be a good idea to have his own bees and skip the pollination fees.

We had them on the edge of the orchard, probably 30 feet from the trees. We didn't spray during the bloom. We turned off the nozzels on the side of the sprayer that the hives were on as we passed by and never had a problem. We sprayed on a 2 week schedule from petal drop until picking time.

The only problems that we had were bears and the fact that it wasn't as easy as it sounded. He ended up giving the hives to a commercial beekeeper in exchange for a couple of years of free pollination I think.

Orchards are pretty devoid of blooming plants, so it will depend on what is around the orchards.