Plastic foundation vs beeswax

[ctbees]

Been reading about plastic foundation. Some books say that the beginning beekeeper should not use plastic foundation because the bees are slower to accept it. Is this still true? I was planning on using the plastic with the beeswax coating from Mann Lake since I have purchased equipment from another beekeeper and all of the frames are top & bottom grooved. I don't think I could use beeswax foundation in these types of frames anyway.


Thanks everyone!

[Michael Bush]

>Been reading about plastic foundation. Some books say that the beginning beekeeper should not use plastic foundation because the bees are slower to accept it.

And yet all the beginner kits I see lately seem to have plastic foundation.

> Is this still true?

Some is accepted better than others. The best acceptance I've gotten on plastic is the Mann Lake PF100 or PF120 series. I run all mediums so I use the PF120s. Acceptance is excellent and the cell size is also close enough to what I want, which is 4.95mm.

> I was planning on using the plastic with the beeswax coating from Mann Lake since I have purchased equipment from another beekeeper and all of the frames are top & bottom grooved. I don't think I could use beeswax foundation in these types of frames anyway.

Sure you can. Maybe not the vertically wired, but you can put beeswax foundation in them. You can also just turn the wedge and use no foundation. Even easier.

[Fuzzy]

In my 8 years of beekeeping, I have never used just beeswax. I have always used the plasticell (wax coated) from Dadant. I have never had a swarm or package reject an undrawn box. I now buy it by the case for maintance purposes.

Fuzzy

[SD2522]

I have used both plastic and wax foundation in the past. I honestly like plastic better, but its up to you. I found spraying the frames with sugar water and honey bee healthy really helped them take to the plastic. I've also seen bees not touch plastic at all. One advantage to the plastic as a new beekeeper is to make sure you buy black frames for your brood boxes, you will be able to see eggs much easier. The bottom line is it is up to you and your bees and what works best for you, both types are widely used and have their advantages and disadvantages.

[Myron Denny]

I have several shallow supers I would like to use plastic foundation in, all the plastic I see is for "medium and deep frames", is there a Company that makes plastic for shallow frames?

[Brenda]

I don't know about just the plastic foundation, but I have bought wooden shallow frames with the plastic foundation already assembled at Brushy Mt.

[SwedeBee1970]

Plastic would be OK for the supers and lids, however, nothing beats wooden frames with wax-wired foundation.

New colonies need this for a quick start.

Would you buy plastic furniture for inside your home ?

I order all my stuff from Walter T. Kelley bees. www.kelleybees.com

[Brent Bean]

I have used both, but I now only run plastic and will never go back to wax. I coat new foundation with beeswax melted in a double boiler using a paint brush. I have never had problems with them drawing out the foundation. Other advantages are wax moths can’t destroy it. Just scrap it off and give it back to them. Mice won’t chew it up, and you don’t have to worry about breaking it when you drop a frame during cold weather. Blow outs during extraction are a thing of the past.
Some say yes, but it’s traditional, perhaps but so was riding horses for your primary transportation.

[SwedeBee1970]

The key is in the wax. Like Duragilt, once the wax is gone, you're done. This may be fine with a thriving colony, but not a new one.

[jdpro5010]

SwedeBee, I think you ought to try foundationless once. You will be amazed.

[vajerzy]

In my opinion- there's no definitive answer- it's whatever works for you. I like plastic because it's easy to use and I don't like fooling with cross-wire. I use it for the reasons Brent Bean stated. I had a beekeeper tell me that if I don't use wax with wire- then I'm not a real beekeeper. That's ridiculous and narrow minded. Try both- see what you like. Better yet- take a wire/wax frame, plastic coated with beeswax frame, and an empty frame and place them side-by-side in a hive and see which frame gets drawn out. Pretty cool little experiment for next spring.

[SwedeBee1970]

Maybe when my hives get bigger, one is too small to attempt.

[Dunkel]

I have used both this past year and the bees took to the wire and wax on average 30% faster. The only exception was the swarm I caught. They filled out a box of plastic in a week. But them again they were beginning to build on a fence brace. I hate everything about wiring a frame but for me the difference is worth it. Now if I had hundreds of boxes to do I would go plastic. But 20 or less I would bite the bullet.

[Jeffzhear]

I now use primarily starter strips or crimp wire wax foundation with wood frames. If you want to read a controversial topic, do a google search on womans health and plastics....then do one on natural beeswax....I didn't see anything negative on natural beeswax...

You can justify anything you want to justify....for me, plastic doesn't get it. You may save time and money, but it all boils down to what's important to you...

[Countryboy]

If you don't have a strong nectar flow, (and a strong hive) bees won't want to draw out much plastic or wax foundation. If they have wax foundation during a nectar dearth, they will chew up the foundation and use the wax for capping brood. If you have hot weather before the comb is drawn, plastic foundation won't sag, warp, or fall out like wax foundation will.

Plastic foundation has advantages of you plan on extracting honey centrifugally. Wax foundation has advantage if you plan on doing cut comb or crush and strain.

I have never bought wax foundation or put wax foundation into a frame, so I don't know the labor involved. (But I have heard others talk about how much of a pain it is.) However, I have bought used frames that had wax foundation, so you will find wax foundation in my hives. You can also find both plastic and foundationless frames in my hives too. They all work for me.

[Grant]

I have several shallow supers I would like to use plastic foundation in, all the plastic I see is for "medium and deep frames", is there a Company that makes plastic for shallow frames?

Permadent, a company from South Dakota. I don't immediately have the contact info. I tried all the different varieties and sizes of plastic foundation and felt Permadent was the best and most readily accepted.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[sweetacres]

I started 3 hives last year on plastic which I coated with my own wax.

No issues with acceptance, but I guess it is possible they took longer to draw.

I've made the commitment to use zero chemicals. So introducing foundation that has who knows what residue in it seemed counter productive.

Maybe if I get my own foundation making machine, I'll leave the plastic behind, but I dont see any reason to.

[StevenG]

This past year I had to put foundation in 1,000 deep frames... tedious? you betcha! However, nothing quite matches the aroma of fresh wax foundation! :applause: The tedium was broken by an occasional sniff of the foundation, the smell of beeswax with a hint of honey perhaps? Everyone gets their fix in their own way I guess. :lpf:

I'm going to miss that "fix" this next spring when I go foundationless.
Regards,
Steven

[Ravenseye]

A lot of times, it boils down to what works best for you and what you like to work with. I tossed all my plastic. I just don't like plastic anything. It's not because it didn't work, it's because I didn't like to work with it. I will say though that where I've had to mix plastic and wood/wax in the same box, the wax foundation got drawn first. Results from others may vary. A beek nearby switched exclusively to plastic as he expanded his operation since he really needed to invest his time in other business related issues as opposed to building, filling and wiring frames. Again, there are a few different reasons for using one or the other. And yes, I love the smell of wood and wax!

[Brenda]

Brushy Mt has some foundation for shallows-
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/White-4-3_4-Plastic-Foundation-ea/productinfo/412/

[Omie]

My first hive was a gift, and had been somewhat unattended for the past year or two. The frames and comb were all quite old, gunky, and dark colored, but I won't try replacing any til Spring, to avoid disturbing the bees too much in late autumn now. It had 3 deeps and a super- lots of extra space that needed to be consolidated before going into this winter at my house.

I had a BK's help in going through the hive and eliminating frames that were not being used much. We managed to eliminate a whole deep and its frames, and the super, moving the fullest frames (and the queen of course) into the two most active deeps that were left, resulting in a tidy winter hive that we could move easily to my place.

The thing that I noticed about the unused frames we took out was this- there were plastic foundation frames, and there were wax/wired foundation frames. What was striking is that all the wax foundations (you could glimpse the wires and thus knew they were the wax ones) were fully and evenly loaded with comb...but all the plastic foundation frames had only feeble spots of comb half built on them here and there, none completed. In addition to that, most of the surfaces of the plastic foundations had been stripped bare of any wax at all, and were now simply shiny sheets of bare plastic. Here's my photo I took just now, comparing a wax foundation frame and the plastic foundation frame:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2802/4100435301_d5000591b5.jpg
I found the comparison fascinating. Of the 9 old frames we pulled out, only two were from wax/wire foundation comb...the other 7 were these more or less stripped plastic ones, some with small spotty unfinished comb attempts on them.
Granted, neither of these frames were being 'used' at the moment by the hive, but I think that may have been because of the terrible year for nectar and pollen we've had- the bees were just unable to fill up three deeps plus a medium super.

Once Spring comes I'll be moving all the bees into new boxes and new frames (with wax/wire foundation). I might even try a few foundationless frames tucked in between the wax ones as an experiment. But no plastic foundations for me.

[Myron Denny]

I would like to know if there is a significant production difference between Wax & Plastic foundation.
I would be interested in doing a trial this spring on a same number of colonies for each test, at the same location, on different foundation with enough repeatability to know if there is a difference in between Wax & Plastic. The more I read the more confused I get about cell size, I think cell size needs to be included in this test. If this has already been tried I would like to see the results, possibly there needs to be several of these trials across the US of A to see if there is any difference on the different locations and different weather conditions.

I have what I consider a very good location for this test and I would try to share the info, would there be any monetary "stimulus"help to pay for supplies and equipment? I think all the frames in the Brood Boxes need to be the same size, but half the boxes be totally wax the other half be totally plastic, the surplus supers must be the same size, but 1/2 must be in used supers, the other 1/2 must be new supers, 1/2 of them must be wax the other 1/2 plastic, 1/2 of each of these must be on screened bottom boards, the other 1/2 solid bottom boards. I have read that "Permacomb" and other plastic can be cut down, almost all my supers are shallow, the plastic foundation is going to have to be cut down.
Then I would like to compare the above with at least 2 different bee selections, I personally would be interested to compare: Russians Vs VSN/SMR Italians are there others that should be included?
New Vs used woodware (boxes and frames),
General hive health and population,
Pounds of honey produced per hive,

I am open to any and all suggestions and I think this test needs other people involved, it also needs be in several locations with different weather conditions.

Myron Denny
Glencoe, Okla

[Countryboy]

Here is a study Allen Dick did a few years ago. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

He started several packages on Pierco, Permadent, new white combs, and old dark combs. Once the bees had the brood boxes filled out, he put on queen excluders and honey supers with drawn comb - and then he compared honey production between the different hives.

[Omie]

Did Dick's study not include undrawn wax foundation?....only plastics? :scratch:

[Countryboy]

There are a couple different studies on that link. Graph one shows honey production from package bees started on starter strips, foundation, new comb, and old combs. This was a 3 year study. I'm pretty sure wax foundation was used in that study.

If you want further clarification on the studies, you could always contact Adony Melathopoulos from the contact info provided on that webpage.

[Omie]

There are a couple different studies on that link. Graph one shows honey production from package bees started on starter strips, foundation, new comb, and old combs. This was a 3 year study. I'm pretty sure wax foundation was used in that study.

Why are you pretty sure about that?
Of the studies on the web page, most list the foundations used as being plastic of one type or another.
But yes, I suppose contacting Dick would be the way to find out.
I do think it's pretty relevant in studies such as this to at least specify whether the foundations are wax or plastic, if folks are going to draw conclusions about bee preferences and and honey production from them. The later graphs on the page do specify what they used in those studies...all plastic.

[Countryboy]

Why are you pretty sure about that?

Read Allen Dick's diary, and you'll get a better understanding of how he words things. He normally calls wax foundation just foundation, and plastic he calls plastic frames or plastic foundation. I think many older beekeepers assume people understand that foundation refers to wax foundation - and plastic foundation will be differentiated by specifically calling it plastic.

[Myron Denny]

Here is a study Allen Dick did a few years ago. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

He started several packages on Pierco, Permadent, new white combs, and old dark combs. Once the bees had the brood boxes filled out, he put on queen excluders and honey supers with drawn comb - and then he compared honey production between the different hives.

I want to thankyou for the reply, I have read it 3 times. I am guessing the new white combs and the old dark combs are wax? There is a tremendous amount of usable info in your post! I wonder if the "Permadent" supposed to be "PermaComb"?
Myron Denny

[magnet-man]

Myron, I have done all plastic frames, wood frames with plastic foundation and wood and wax foundation. This is my take on each of them.

All plastic frames twist when grabbed by a hive tool and lots of nooks and crannies for SHB to live in. It is also expensive to ship because it is bulky.

Wood and wax, bees draw it out fast but also chew holes in it. It is a pain to install and wax moths love it. Most beekeepers throw wax moth infested frames away because they are hard to clean.

Wood and plastic foundation easy to grip with the hive tool and quick installation of foundation. Clean up from a wax moth infestation is very easy just scrape the frame clean.

Noticed how many people have switched to plastic foundation because of the ease of use.

[Omie]

Why are you pretty sure about that?

Read Allen Dick's diary, and you'll get a better understanding of how he words things. He normally calls wax foundation just foundation, and plastic he calls plastic frames or plastic foundation. I think many older beekeepers assume people understand that foundation refers to wax foundation - and plastic foundation will be differentiated by specifically calling it plastic.

That makes sense to me. Thanks!

[Myron Denny]

I have mostly shallow supers with wood frames. I think I want to use some sort of plastic I can nail in. I also need to saw it to fit my shallow frames, what blade do I use that will cut it smooth? Do I buy unwaxed plastic, saw it to width, install it and then put a coat of wax on it?

[Myron Denny]

Andony's reply:
Thanks for your interest Myron. That is indeed very old work conducted when I was unemployed and Allen was gracious enough to let me play around with a yard of his.



Comb replacement remains an interest of mine and I am attaching a copy of my most recent work with shaking:

http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/shaking.pdf



Back to the study with Allen Dick: the “white” and “dark” comb were drawn comb from Allen’s stack sorted visually. We did not keep track of the comb age or the type of original foundation.



None of the combs were plastic drawn; all plastic models we tested were foundation only.



I hope this helps.



Regards,

Andony

[jbeshearse]

Denny,

Most plastic can be cut smoothly with a standard skillsaw with the blade installed backwards. I have never cut plastic foundation this way but feel it will probably work fine.

[magnet-man]

Spend the extra 1 cent a frame and get the pre waxed foundaton. If you want you can bring it by my house to cut it down. I have a 120 toothed blade designed to cut plastic.

[ACBEES]

I just finished my first full year in beekeeping. I started with 10 nucs and installed them on plastic one piece wax coated frames from Pierco in the hive bodies. I used black frames in the hive bodies and white frames in the supers. The bees drew out the frames just fine. Pierco frames have a 10 year warranty and are very reasonably priced. I'm pleased with the perfomance of the Pierco frames and best of all, no construction or maintenance invloved.

[sebee]

Am I missing something? I just went to the Pierco website and I dont see prices for anything anywhere on their site.

[Michael Bush]

Most of the beekeeping supply houses retail Pierco's products. I don't think Pierco retails them.