View Full Version : Flat sheet fondation
In an effort to use only clean wax, and not spend a pile of money on a machine, I am thinking of using flat sheets. Does anybody have any experience with doing this, and what were the result?
I will be putting packages into new equiptment, and want to build them up as quick as possible.
brooksbeefarm
10-22-2009, 11:58 AM
What do you mean by clean wax and flat sheets? Jack
clean wax as in wax that has never had chemicals, and flat sheets being fondation that has no imprint.
jdpro5010
10-22-2009, 12:17 PM
I would just go foundationless. It is much easier than what you are wanting to do and definitely less expensive. The only chemicals that the bees new wax will have in it is whatever they bring in the hive!
brooksbeefarm
10-22-2009, 12:18 PM
Michael Bush, has a web site on here that has the info i think your looking for. I think he uses little or no foundation in his hives. Good luck. Jack
If I may;
It sounds by your post you are just starting out.
If you do not have your own wax, were would you get chemical free plain wax foundation as opposed to imprinted foundation from a supplier ?
I would think it would all come from their same wax inventory.
I believe at least one of the suppliers do have plain foundation, If I remember
correctly, chemical free, I would not bet on it.
Good Luck
PCM
I was gonna try to buy some wax from so local chem free people and make my own sheets. I'm not aginst foundationless, just thinking that having something in the frame will speed things up.
jdpro5010
10-22-2009, 01:45 PM
My foundationless frames are drawn out so much faster than when I have foundation in it is truly unbelievable. The bees will really draw comb out when they get to make it the way they want it.
BeePuncher
10-22-2009, 05:11 PM
My foundationless frames are drawn out so much faster than when I have foundation in it is truly unbelievable. The bees will really draw comb out when they get to make it the way they want it.
I have had the same experience, and my bees drew frame after frame on dry sugar feed during the spring dearth.
kwest
10-22-2009, 05:16 PM
go foundationless. it is quicker for the bees, eisier and cheaper. just make sure the hive is level. i just switched mid summer and i was impressed.
Ok since I had considered that anyway, I guess I'm gonna go foundationless. Looking at Michael Bush's site, which style of frames are you guys using? I see a few ways to mod the top bar.
Thanks
kwest
10-22-2009, 10:48 PM
use whatever type you want. i use both slotted top bar and wedge top bar. i cut some thin strips of wood about the width of a popcicle stick by 3/4" widex the length of a frame. i glue them into the top bar.
Scorpster
10-23-2009, 01:09 AM
I used the wedge top bar without the wedge...they followed the small ledge just fine.
NewbeeNnc
10-23-2009, 10:13 AM
I've been contemplating foundationless as well. How perfectly level does the hive need to be? A perfect center bubble all the way around? Can the bubble be off slightly?
pcord
10-23-2009, 11:45 AM
I've been contemplating foundationless as well. How perfectly level does the hive need to be? A perfect center bubble all the way around? Can the bubble be off slightly?
I started foundationless this year and I think the important level is side to side. A tilt forward for condensation drain shouldn't affect the comb alignment. That being said, my hives are level but they built comb on one frame crooked anyway. I just had to cut it out so they would start over. I love foundationless but for me the big draw back is finding eggs/young larvae. It is nearly impossible until the wax darkens. Finding these things on black plastic foundation is a snap. Not that I'd go back to that, just thought I'd mention it a downside.
NewbeeNnc
10-23-2009, 03:16 PM
I love foundationless but for me the big draw back is finding eggs/young larvae. It is nearly impossible until the wax darkens. Finding these things on black plastic foundation is a snap. Not that I'd go back to that, just thought I'd mention it a downside.
I agree, that's why in one of my beginner hives I went with the black plastic so I could get used to seeing eggs. I really believe it helped spotting them out in my other hives.
jdpro5010
10-23-2009, 03:37 PM
If you have frames of drawn comb in the hive, being level is not as important. They will use those frame as a guide to some extent.
Grant
10-23-2009, 07:57 PM
I've started going foundationless, with excellent results on my brood frames.
I assembled my frames, wired them, and glued several tongue depressor sticks into the top groove without taking our the wedge top bar. (Wal-Mart calls them "Jumbo sticks," they're in the art and craft section). I used Elmer's wood glue.
When I placed these foundationless frames between two existing brood frames, the bees draw it out so perfectly you cannot tell there was no foundation to start with.
I thought I might have to wax the sticks or seal them with a wax tube. Nope. Not needed. I also experimented with a strip of foundation, but even using a wax tube, some of these strips will fall out.
I'm a big fan of Jumbo Sticks.
Grant
Jackson, MO
Scorpster
10-24-2009, 01:08 AM
I also just read about using vertical wires, which may guide the bees. I used horizontal fishing line, and not only was it not exactly center in the lower comb, but until they connect it to the bottom bar it is unstable, vertical wires may help with that as well.
SamG347
10-24-2009, 09:27 AM
I was wondering for all of you who are going foundationless...are you using Deep frames or just Meds?
Grant
10-24-2009, 03:53 PM
I've used foudationless in brood frames. There is a tendency for the bees, on occasion, to leave the sides and bottom edge unconnected to the wood frame. Sometimes they connect the wax to the wood, but my experience has been about 50/50.
If they leave the wax unconnected, the extractor will tear up the comb. With wired frames, the bottom section of the frame tears out. No real big deal as they'll build this missing section back.
Foundationless superframes work well, however, if you want to produce comb honey.
I'm a real fan of horizontal wiring, even on foundationless frames.
Grant
Jackson, MO
Michael Bush
10-24-2009, 05:11 PM
I've used flat sheets but they draw them slower than embossed sheets and they draw embossed sheet slower than no sheets. :)
>How perfectly level does the hive need to be? A perfect center bubble all the way around? Can the bubble be off slightly?
Basically front to back doesn't matter, but side to side does. If you're a quarter of an inch off plumb in the height of the frame then the comb will be a quarter of a inch off the center of the frame. The combs will always be plumb. The frames will not unless you level the hive. I build a stand that holds 14 eight frame hives and and level the stand. Once the stand is level I have 14 hives level.