Managing the supply of drones

[heaflaw]

If you were to put drawn drone comb into the center of the broodnest in the off season for drones, would the queen lay drone eggs and would the workers allow them to live? (For my location 90% of drones are killed off by the first of July). If so, it looks like that would be a great way to control the genetics by raising queens at this time. Their mates would mostly be from these chosen hives with drones. How do you queen breeders control the drones the queens mate with or is that a secret?

[Dave W]

Drones are reared in healthy colonies w/ normal inflow of nectar from early spring (fruit tree bloom) to maybe late Sept. Anytime that incomming food becomes short, the drones are often "killed off" to save the others. This often occurs in many areas in July and August. With proper feeding by beekeeper and/or when a flow resumes, a few additional drone are then reared again (until end of season).

Late in the season (about now) a frame of drone-size cells is usually filled w/ honey.

When queen are "Open Mated", to provide "some" control, breeders try to "fill the breeding area" w/ drones they (the beekeeper) have raised from many, MANY "drone" hives per "breeder" colony.

[Michael Bush]

According to the only research I know of done on the subject, bees will rear the same number of drones no matter what you do.

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.

[AR Beekeeper]

During the summer pollen/nectar darth the bees will continue raising drones if they are fed pollen and sugar syrup. If they are not fed they remove drones from the colony and do not raise new ones until the pollen is once again comming in.

[FordGuy]

According to the only research I know of done on the subject, bees will rear the same number of drones no matter what you do.

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.

Mr. Bush,

so using the green plasticell would free resources up to draw regular comb, but won't encourage bees to raise more drones?

In a "breeder colony" are there no measures to increase the number of drones? if not, I wonder what the justificaiton for having a colony serve a primary purpose of being a breeder?

[AR Beekeeper]

FordGuy: The "breeder colony" is the colony that houses the queen that is to be the mother of the virgin queens produced. The "drone mother colony" is the colony that has been selected to produce the drones for mating.

If drone comb is drawn and given to the drone mother she will lay the comb full and then often it is removed and given to another colony. That colony will care for the drones and will not raise drones of their own. That way a few drone mothers can produce many more drones than usual.

It has been my experience if a colony is given 4 frames of drawn drone comb, and they are placed in the 3 and 5 positions, the queen will lay in them. I then removed them and gave them to other colonies. I don't know what the colony would do if they had been left to raise all of them.

[RayMarler]

I've still got a couple or three colonies raising drones but I'm feeding sugar water and pollen and the colonies are strongly populated. For the most part the drone production has stopped though, it's only the strong colonies with me feeding with pollen and syrup that keeps them going.

[Michael Bush]

>so using the green plasticell would free resources up to draw regular comb, but won't encourage bees to raise more drones?

Not according to Collison's data nor according to my experience.

>In a "breeder colony" are there no measures to increase the number of drones?

You can increase WHERE the drones come from by stealing drone brood from the hives you want the genetics from and giving them to the hives you don't want the genetics from. This suppresses the hive you don't want from rearing their own drones and encourages the hive whose genetics you do want to rear more because they lost that brood.

> if not, I wonder what the justificaiton for having a colony serve a primary purpose of being a breeder?

Of being a drone breeder? It is based on the theory (which Collison disproved) of them raising more drones because of more drone comb.

[NasalSponge]

I was out in the yard today and I can say all three of my hives have a large number of drones freely coming and going, but then again, no dearth here yet. The girls are working something with much gusto!:applause:

[heaflaw]

Michael Bush & A R Beekeeper:

Thanks for answering my questions so well. But aren't you in disagreement about how many drone eggs a queen will lay?

Also, I want to raise a number of queens this spring. I want to choose which hive I want for the breeder colony and which 3 or 4 I want for the drone mother colonies. If I place one frame of drone brood (from the drone mother hives) in each of the hives that I do not want to produce drones, is that enough to suppress drone laying by that queen?

When should I begin placing drone brood in the hives? Dandelion bloom time?

A related genetics question: The queen in my consistantly best hive (out of 20) was superceded this year. To retain the most possible genetics out of the superceded queen, I should use that hive as a drone mother hive. Since drones do not have fathers, the new queen's drones will be geneticly identical to the new queen (and half of the superceded queen's), whereas the new queen's daughter's genetics will be only half of the new queen's genetics (and 1/4 of the superceded queen's). Is that correct?

Beekeeping is by far the most intersting thing I have ever been involved with. So, just to warn you: every good answer I get prompts 3 more questions.

[adamf]

Steve Taber wrote in his book "Breeding Super Bees", that hive drone production is directly proportional to available pollen.

I've seen this to be accurate.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

[Velbert]

I would place my drone combs in the hive about the 1st th 15th of February and place them next to the last frame with brood on the outer cluster if in double brood boxes place in upper box if they are brooding there and if not brooding there place one there any way just over top of where the queen is brooding but go ahead and place drone comb in the lower chamber next to the last outer frame with brood in it.

[AR Beekeeper]

I think the number of drones a colony will support is based on the numbers of adult drones in the colony and the amount of brood they have to feed. I remove the frames from the drone mother's colony when they are laid out and I give them to the support colonies. The support colonies are the one working to raise the drones, the queen in the drone mother colony is just laying eggs. I have never had a queen refuse to lay in the drone comb while pollen was available and the colony was being fed.

I remove the drone frames that are laid by the queens in the support colonies and freeze them. This removes unwanter drone from the apiary and helps with varroa control. After freezing I can give the frames back to the colonies. I uncap the comb with a wire brush to speed up the removal of the pupa.

I know the drones only have the genetic material of the mother, about the percentages I have no idea.

[Michael Bush]

>When should I begin placing drone brood in the hives?

I have drone comb in the hive year round. I never remove any, I do a lot of foundationless, so they start when the pollen arrives, as Adam has so correctly observed.